Of DIY, Founding and Geneseeds

[Ktan]

Hey all.

 

I'm definitely not a Liberite, but I've been watching this discussion with some interest and thought I'd throw my two cents in.

 

I've been really into writing sci-fi for a long time. I started around the age of 14 and have been slowly getting more competent as I go along.

 

Perhaps, however, the most formative experience was having my fiancee utterly destroy two of my short stories. She was not unpleasant, or mean spirited, but there was definitely sarcasm and stuff that wasn't candy coated. I was initially upset, and hurt (more because I sensed I'd failed). Then, she gave me advice on what I needed to do, and to read, before I tried again.

 

The second piece of advice was from the very same lady. She picked up a book I'd been reading, a book that I'd not given all that much thought to, and basically, in no uncertain terms told me it was utter rubbish. I was really hurt. This little series had made me enjoy writing again and I felt I would never get the hang of this 'writing' malarky. She told me she was beginning my literary 'education' and sent me packing with a copy of Lolita to read.

 

I find now that I am reading a lot more critically. I feel, while certainly not perfect, my writing has improved both technically and artistically. Only because I rolled with the punches instead of digging in.

 

The other day, I sent my fiancee an extract from a short story, and she said she liked it. I was absolutely elated, and I have a passion for writing again. Especially because I know she's hard to please, and not just a yes-man. (Incidentally, she is a lovely human being and doesn't want anyone to think she's a horrible meanie for being a critical reader)

 

The thing is, writing in general is a lot harder than people think. It's a difficult process and, as much as we think we do, we often don't really know or understand the rules (or why they exist) when we start. Once we understand these rules fully, we might just have the talent to break them. This post, I think, is worth a read (While this is explicitly about grammar, the idea still holds and the post is excellent.)

 

 

Don't be mean about it, but don't be too candy coated, I think. If you honestly are being constructive, and they just keep digging in, then it's their loss not yours. Just my thoughts.

 

Also, while I can get behind the intent of 'it's Sci-Fi, anything can happen!', I can not support the letter of it. We should not accept silly things, or things that break the suspension of disbelief because of a genre label. Not even in fantasy. Internal consistency is important. Slighty on a tangent, but this is another good read.

 

 

Also, the more you can poke holes in something, the more interesting it becomes. I have to say, even as an Ultramarine, I prefer a post where Octavulg rips into some inconsistency with our lore, or makes out Roboute as a tool (so long as it's well reasoned) than reading a post that seems more like a coddling ego-massage. If it sucks, tell me. Who knows? It might get fixed one day.

 

Consuming media more critically makes some of it suck. It also makes the good stuff even better.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Ktan -

 

Again, I seem to have caused a misunderstanding. Coddling and ego boosting - no. I'm saying common courtesy. I say be blunt, but don't do it rudely. Yes, some people will react badly regardless, but that's inevitable regardless of how rude or polite you are. In said cases, you merely get the benefit of being the better man. In others, the people actually learn something, as opposed to when one is being rude, in which case they are most likely to react badly and learn nothing.

 

And yes, writing is very difficult. I'm just starting out myself, mind if I PM you the links to my short stories, and I can have an experienced writer look over it? In which case, I'd prefer it if you were blunt :D

 

CJJ -

 

Exception, not the rule ;) You know you need help, but how many fresh members are that experienced?

[Captain Juan Juarez]

CJJ -

 

Exception, not the rule :D You know you need help, but how many fresh members are that experienced?

 

That's the thing though isn't it.. Everyone, no matter the length of time in the hobby, needs help.

 

In the worlds I have created over the years it has been easy, simply because I am the Lord and Master of All I Survey.. I make the descisions and rules.

 

40k possesses rules already though, whether they are hard and fast or unspoken.. But people need to learn, simple as.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

CJJ -

 

Exception, not the rule :D You know you need help, but how many fresh members are that experienced?

 

That's the thing though isn't it.. Everyone, no matter the length of time in the hobby, needs help.

 

In the worlds I have created over the years it has been easy, simply because I am the Lord and Master of All I Survey.. I make the descisions and rules.

 

40k possesses rules already though, whether they are hard and fast or unspoken.. But people need to learn, simple as.

I know that... how many of them are experienced enough to know that?

[Captain Juan Juarez]

CJJ -

 

Exception, not the rule :D You know you need help, but how many fresh members are that experienced?

 

That's the thing though isn't it.. Everyone, no matter the length of time in the hobby, needs help.

 

In the worlds I have created over the years it has been easy, simply because I am the Lord and Master of All I Survey.. I make the descisions and rules.

 

40k possesses rules already though, whether they are hard and fast or unspoken.. But people need to learn, simple as.

I know that... how many of them are experienced enough to know that?

 

It isn't about experience though DAT.. Anyone who comes here to create an IA/IT must have some grounding in the hobby, but we never really promote knowledge do we?

 

If anywhere, the Liber should be a shrine to waht makes Chapters what they are.

 

None of that was what I actually wanted to say but.. ** mental shrug **

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

 

That's the thing though isn't it.. Everyone, no matter the length of time in the hobby, needs help.

 

In the worlds I have created over the years it has been easy, simply because I am the Lord and Master of All I Survey.. I make the descisions and rules.

 

40k possesses rules already though, whether they are hard and fast or unspoken.. But people need to learn, simple as.

I know that... how many of them are experienced enough to know that?

 

It isn't about experience though DAT.. Anyone who comes here to create an IA/IT must have some grounding in the hobby, but we never really promote knowledge do we?

 

If anywhere, the Liber should be a shrine to what makes Chapters what they are.

 

None of that was what I actually wanted to say but.. ** mental shrug **

 

I agree, CJJ. That's why I'm arguing, because the Liber shouldn't be a correctional forum.

 

Oh, and I know what you mean about not saying what you intended :D

[Ktan]

Ktan -

 

Again, I seem to have caused a misunderstanding. Coddling and ego boosting - no. I'm saying common courtesy. I say be blunt, but don't do it rudely. Yes, some people will react badly regardless, but that's inevitable regardless of how rude or polite you are. In said cases, you merely get the benefit of being the better man. In others, the people actually learn something, as opposed to when one is being rude, in which case they are most likely to react badly and learn nothing.

 

And yes, writing is very difficult. I'm just starting out myself, mind if I PM you the links to my short stories, and I can have an experienced writer look over it? In which case, I'd prefer it if you were blunt :D

 

No problems. My post wasn't actually directed at anyone, I was merely throwing my thoughts out there. =)

 

Common courtesy is vital in criticism, definitely. Criticism should be something done to help, so I agree with that.

 

I would be happy to read your stories, but I personally wouldn't consider myself an experienced writer. =P

 

I'm sure my fiancee would offer her critiquing services though. (She's got tonnes more literary experience than I do xD)

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Ktan -

 

Again, I seem to have caused a misunderstanding. Coddling and ego boosting - no. I'm saying common courtesy. I say be blunt, but don't do it rudely. Yes, some people will react badly regardless, but that's inevitable regardless of how rude or polite you are. In said cases, you merely get the benefit of being the better man. In others, the people actually learn something, as opposed to when one is being rude, in which case they are most likely to react badly and learn nothing.

 

And yes, writing is very difficult. I'm just starting out myself, mind if I PM you the links to my short stories, and I can have an experienced writer look over it? In which case, I'd prefer it if you were blunt :D

 

No problems. My post wasn't actually directed at anyone, I was merely throwing my thoughts out there. =)

 

Common courtesy is vital in criticism, definitely. Criticism should be something done to help, so I agree with that.

 

I would be happy to read your stories, but I personally wouldn't consider myself an experienced writer. =P

 

I'm sure my fiancee would offer her critiquing services though. (She's got tonnes more literary experience than I do xD)

Alright then, I'll send you a PM...

 

Oh, and I mostly agreed with your thoughts then ;)

[maligncomedy]

You guys know what is kinda interesting, I started this topic with the intent of suggestions to help those who choose to use unorthodox geneseeds, that way, they might have some visible support/ideas to do it in a more fluffier manner, and I said this:

 

In short, by posting this what I desire to accomplish is to start discussion. Doing something different isn't wrong. Sometimes you just need a little bit of guidance to do it in a manner that best represents integrity the community that is associated with the hobby as to not come off balatantly insulting. That being said, feel free to chew me out and/or contribute relevant information.

 

And its kinda interesting how this entire conversation has shifted away from doing that, but down to more of a debate on criticism and how to administer it.

[Donkey Kong]

I think the main thing we have to remember is that this is all for a game, and that game is based in science fiction. Therefore, anything is possible and there is no right or wrong.

 

I think most of the problems come when people forget this and take things way too seriously.

 

I hate this. I hate this so much, and by extension I hate you for saying it. If ever there is a reason to hate Warhammer 40,000, its creators, or the more liberal members of its community, it's this. I will defend this statement with tooth and nail if it were to come down to it, and every problem that ever peeps up about "no canon" or "free canon" and god forbid "loose canon" deserves to be hit with the force of a nuclear bomb. This alone is the reason that threads like this are able to crop up. I blame Games Workshop for letting it happen and this is the only thing that I actually respect Philip Sibbering for trying to do, and that's trying to make the universe fit together to make sense.

 

Maybe I'm different, but I like to take things seriously, and I can accept when something is so serious it needs to have some things to take the piss out of it. The first is the actual setting, the latter is the fan criticism, and that often takes into account the assumed or most basic answer. Riddle me this, how many people honestly believe that:

 

- Adeptus Mechanicus Adepts have no clue what they're doing

- Ork machinery works based on the principal of "clap your hands to believe"

- The Imperial Guard is a giant meat grinder

- The PDF can't defend a world by itself

- The Ultramarines didn't do anything in the Great Crusade or Horus Heresy

 

I'm sure everyone here agrees that these are misconceptions made only by the ignorant who haven't read deep enough into the universe. But people still say the Adeptus "Me-Can't-i-cus" is made up of cavemen. People still say the Orks are all latent psykers who can make working turbine engines out of paper clips and rubber bands. People still say the Imperial Guard is a meat grinder, and their armor is cardboard and their weapons are laser pointers. People say that the PDF should be called Imperial Speedbumps. People here still make fun of the Ultrasmurfs for being on the opposite side of the galaxy whenever anything happens.

 

Why? Because it's funny and we know it isn't true, just like every American isn't dumber than a sack of rocks, every Brit isn't homosexual, and every Aussie isn't a psychotic murderer.

 

I will bring back my argument to one very simple blurb that I like to call Sanguinius's Hair. Part of me wants everyone to quote this whenever people bring up the canon question, but sadly I know that that won't be happening any time soon.

 

Sanguinius has aspects that are far more important than this. He's the Primarch of the Blood Angels Legion. He died fighting Horus. He was the most beloved Primarch during the Great Crusade. He has wings. Why does his hair matter? Because an author by the name of Graham McNeill decided to screw with everyone over one of the most trivial things imaginable, the color of Sanguinius's hair.

 

Before this, every illustration depicting Sanguinius that has him bare headed shows the primarch with long, blonde hair. Every. Last. One. Then the Horus Heresy novel A Thousand Sons came along, and had this to say:

 

The second figure wore armour of deepest crimson, the colour vital and urgent. Wings of dappled black and white rustled at his back, the feathers hung with fine loops of silver wire and mother of pearl. Hair of deepest black framed a face that was pale and classically shaped, like one of the thousand of marble likenesses that garrisoned the Imperial Palace of Terra. Yet this was no lifeless rendering of a long-dead luminary; this was a living, breathing angel made flesh, whose countenance was the most beautiful in existence.

'Lord Sanguinius,' said Ahriman in wonder.

 

A Thousand Sons page 309 by Graham McNeill

 

I read the A Thousand Sons cover to cover. I didn't even notice this on my first read through. Let's ignore the fact that this paragraph was written during the trial at Nikea, and let's ignore that McNeill did not write it so that the Emperor banned sorcery, but all librarians. Something as trivial as the color of Sanguinius's hair is not even canon.

 

How the hell are we supposed to delegate what fits the universe when the universe fluctuates so much something so asininely trivial that would affect absolutely nothing else can't even be pinned down?

 

I don't even need to be all that eloquent to summarize what Ktan said much better than I ever could, and that is this: Some things suck.

 

Things that suck should be crushed. not "kindly escorted off the premises" as DAT put it. Why? Isn't that mean? Doesn't that drive people away? Yes, it does. That's a good thing. GHY said it better than I could too. People who want to improve will roll with the punches and make things better. People who come here looking for praise, or looking for people who know how to make a Chapter make their Chapter shouldn't be here. Doesn't this limit the community? No, it makes it better because the people who stick around are those who can pump out a Chapter that works, maybe pump out a Campaign, interact with others in a shared universe and move forward.

 

People who write garbage and want to be praised aren't going to do that. They're going to take their praise and move on. It's one of the many reasons why I never understood why Doctor Thunder took his Black Widows to every forum I frequented and kept going even though he got the same reaction of people others criticized as "fluff nazis" and was supported by people who, I would like to say work, in their their own little bubble and take what they like, ignore what they don't and support everyone else for doing the same thing and still call it by the shared name.

 

There is a reason that people call things:

The Abnettverse

The AD-Bverse

The Philverse

 

All I have to say is this: The Bobverse sucks, I want the Warhammer 40,000 universe, I want everyone to share it, and I want it to work.

 

You guys know what is kinda interesting, I started this topic with the intent of suggestions to help those who choose to use unorthodox geneseeds, that way, they might have some visible support/ideas to do it in a more fluffier manner, and I said this:

 

Here's the problem, your asking about a problem that is inherently a problem. It's not even a matter of the fact that it doesn't work, it's a matter of the fact that it's never going to be an issue. Why do you want to use a traitor gene-seed?

 

I like the Night Lords terror tactics. I like the World Eaters bloodthirsty charges. I like the Thousand Sons focus on psykers. I like the Emperor's Children's pride and pursuit of perfection. I like the Iron Warriors siege skills. I like the Word Bearers public speaking ability. I like the Death Guard's stubbornness. I like the Black Legion's indecisiveness.

 

Do you know how all of these things are just different tactics?

Night Lords: You don't think the Ultramarines have ever scared a population out of its mind to bring it back into compliance if they didn't have the forces to lead a full fledged attack?

Iron Warriors: You don't think the Codex has documents by Rogal Dorn and Perturabo on how to defend and demolish a fortress?

Word Bearers:You don't think that all Chaplains are taught like Word Bearers after the Word Bearers came up with the concept of legions having Chaplains?

Emperor's Children: You don't think that all marines push themselves to be the best they can be?

Death Guard: You don't think that most marines are going to do what they have to to win?

Thousand Sons: You don't think that a chapter can just have a large supply of psychic recruits or have an influential Chief Librarian that can push the idea forward? This bugs me a little, people believe that the gene-seed gives psychic powers. In A Thousand Sons, the waiters in cafes on Prospero were psychic.

 

World Eaters: And this one bugs me the most. You think that marines actually charge? Not even the World Eaters were that stupid. If June 6, 1944 should have taught you anything, it's that charging across a strip of sand with machine guns firing at you is going to have some pretty horrific results. Even if you're wearing tank armor.

 

The Imperium doesn't even like using the gene-seed of Dark Angels because they're too self serving. You think that they're going to use another one just because? It's odd that people like using traitor gene-seeds for quirks that would be gained from practice, mentors, or recruiting populations when most loyalists have actual genetic defects.

 

I can't even think of anything to justify it with off the top of my head.

They ran out of loyalist supply? How the hell did that happen?

A traitor returned to Imperial Service and requested his gene-seed be used in the creation of a Chapter he would lead to fight against the traitors? Lol, no. He would be interrogated and killed.

A Chapter is requested to be genetically pure and the supply of Ultramarines has been used up, and they don't want to use the Dark Angels, so they use the Night Lords? This could work, but the question comes again as to how the hell they ran out of Ultramarine genes.

 

Someone with more patience, talent, or a greater desire to defy authority than me could probably work some of these out, but there it comes again. What the hell is gained from going against the grain and being individual and different for the sake of being individual and different? We call people like this

, and they're the butt of so many jokes it's not even funny.

 

A different egg in the same basket, the Castigators are one of my favorite IA chapters. They are a chapter I believe that everyone on the Bolter and Chainsword should know. If the Castigators were to become the Second Legion instead of a chapter made in the Fourteenth Founding, do you have any idea how much Commissar Molotov would have been bombarded with replies like this:

 

"Change the Founding"

"What purpose is there for being a Legion?"

"Why are they missing?"

"What are you trying to do?"

"Where is there Primarch?"

 

Not to mention a list of insults that aren't worth posting. It's an inherently bad comparison because so much of the Castigator's character comes from the Fourteenth Founding, but the point still stands. Even good things won't be accepted in what is supposed to be a community accepted phenomenon. There are two missing legions, we do not know what they were called, what they looked like, or what they did, and we do not know why they are missing, and right now we don't need to know.

 

I like the idea that the two legions were absorbed into the Ultramarines and the marines in them went on to create the Mortificators and Doom Eagles. I also like the idea that the Legion of the Damned are the Emperor's lesser daemons too. And I believe that the Imperial Navy has no justifiable reason for having Imperial Aircraft. And I believe that losing worlds due to rounding errors and the Imperial Guard fighting like Mother Russia in the second World War is all an exercise in people believe that the Imperium is stupid, and I hate everyone who believes the Imperium is stupid.

 

See, you've gone and made me angry. Now look at the mess I've made. Unfortunately, I think I've turned this thread into another one I killed with my death touch.

[Ecritter]

Note to self ... KingHongKong takes this game waaaay to serious. :D

 

:fakenopic:

[Heru]

I will bring back my argument to one very simple blurb that I like to call Sanguinius's Hair. Part of me wants everyone to quote this whenever people bring up the canon question, but sadly I know that that won't be happening any time soon.

 

Sanguinius has aspects that are far more important than this. He's the Primarch of the Blood Angels Legion. He died fighting Horus. He was the most beloved Primarch during the Great Crusade. He has wings. Why does his hair matter? Because an author by the name of Graham McNeill decided to screw with everyone over one of the most trivial things imaginable, the color of Sanguinius's hair.

 

Before this, every illustration depicting Sanguinius that has him bare headed shows the primarch with long, blonde hair. Every. Last. One. Then the Horus Heresy novel A Thousand Sons came along, and had this to say:

 

The second figure wore armour of deepest crimson, the colour vital and urgent. Wings of dappled black and white rustled at his back, the feathers hung with fine loops of silver wire and mother of pearl. Hair of deepest black framed a face that was pale and classically shaped, like one of the thousand of marble likenesses that garrisoned the Imperial Palace of Terra. Yet this was no lifeless rendering of a long-dead luminary; this was a living, breathing angel made flesh, whose countenance was the most beautiful in existence.

'Lord Sanguinius,' said Ahriman in wonder.

 

A Thousand Sons page 309 by Graham McNeill

 

I read the A Thousand Sons cover to cover. I didn't even notice this on my first read through. Let's ignore the fact that this paragraph was written during the trial at Nikea, and let's ignore that McNeill did not write it so that the Emperor banned sorcery, but all librarians. Something as trivial as the color of Sanguinius's hair is not even canon.

Like the big girl he is Sanguinius dyes his hair. :D

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

I believe that a third party could possibly be saved with kindness as well (as opposed to those who roll with the punches and those who don't) but I'll concede my point on being blunt. I merely ask, then, that common courtesy is practiced before correcting an Index.

[maligncomedy]

You guys know what is kinda interesting, I started this topic with the intent of suggestions to help those who choose to use unorthodox geneseeds, that way, they might have some visible support/ideas to do it in a more fluffier manner, and I said this:

 

Here's the problem, your asking about a problem that is inherently a problem. It's not even a matter of the fact that it doesn't work, it's a matter of the fact that it's never going to be an issue. Why do you want to use a traitor gene-seed?

 

I like the Night Lords terror tactics. I like the World Eaters bloodthirsty charges. I like the Thousand Sons focus on psykers. I like the Emperor's Children's pride and pursuit of perfection. I like the Iron Warriors siege skills. I like the Word Bearers public speaking ability. I like the Death Guard's stubbornness. I like the Black Legion's indecisiveness.

 

Do you know how all of these things are just different tactics?

Night Lords: You don't think the Ultramarines have ever scared a population out of its mind to bring it back into compliance if they didn't have the forces to lead a full fledged attack?

Iron Warriors: You don't think the Codex has documents by Rogal Dorn and Perturabo on how to defend and demolish a fortress?

Word Bearers:You don't think that all Chaplains are taught like Word Bearers after the Word Bearers came up with the concept of legions having Chaplains?

Emperor's Children: You don't think that all marines push themselves to be the best they can be?

Death Guard: You don't think that most marines are going to do what they have to to win?

Thousand Sons: You don't think that a chapter can just have a large supply of psychic recruits or have an influential Chief Librarian that can push the idea forward? This bugs me a little, people believe that the gene-seed gives psychic powers. In A Thousand Sons, the waiters in cafes on Prospero were psychic.

 

World Eaters: And this one bugs me the most. You think that marines actually charge? Not even the World Eaters were that stupid. If June 6, 1944 should have taught you anything, it's that charging across a strip of sand with machine guns firing at you is going to have some pretty horrific results. Even if you're wearing tank armor.

 

The Imperium doesn't even like using the gene-seed of Dark Angels because they're too self serving. You think that they're going to use another one just because? It's odd that people like using traitor gene-seeds for quirks that would be gained from practice, mentors, or recruiting populations when most loyalists have actual genetic defects.

 

I can't even think of anything to justify it with off the top of my head.

They ran out of loyalist supply? How the hell did that happen?

A traitor returned to Imperial Service and requested his gene-seed be used in the creation of a Chapter he would lead to fight against the traitors? Lol, no. He would be interrogated and killed.

A Chapter is requested to be genetically pure and the supply of Ultramarines has been used up, and they don't want to use the Dark Angels, so they use the Night Lords? This could work, but the question comes again as to how the hell they ran out of Ultramarine genes.

 

Someone with more patience, talent, or a greater desire to defy authority than me could probably work some of these out, but there it comes again. What the hell is gained from going against the grain and being individual and different for the sake of being individual and different? We call people like this

, and they're the butt of so many jokes it's not even funny.

 

A different egg in the same basket, the Castigators are one of my favorite IA chapters. They are a chapter I believe that everyone on the Bolter and Chainsword should know. If the Castigators were to become the Second Legion instead of a chapter made in the Fourteenth Founding, do you have any idea how much Commissar Molotov would have been bombarded with replies like this:

 

"Change the Founding"

"What purpose is there for being a Legion?"

"Why are they missing?"

"What are you trying to do?"

"Where is there Primarch?"

 

Not to mention a list of insults that aren't worth posting. It's an inherently bad comparison because so much of the Castigator's character comes from the Fourteenth Founding, but the point still stands. Even good things won't be accepted in what is supposed to be a community accepted phenomenon. There are two missing legions, we do not know what they were called, what they looked like, or what they did, and we do not know why they are missing, and right now we don't need to know.

 

I like the idea that the two legions were absorbed into the Ultramarines and the marines in them went on to create the Mortificators and Doom Eagles. I also like the idea that the Legion of the Damned are the Emperor's lesser daemons too. And I believe that the Imperial Navy has no justifiable reason for having Imperial Aircraft. And I believe that losing worlds due to rounding errors and the Imperial Guard fighting like Mother Russia in the second World War is all an exercise in people believe that the Imperium is stupid, and I hate everyone who believes the Imperium is stupid.

 

See, you've gone and made me angry. Now look at the mess I've made. Unfortunately, I think I've turned this thread into another one I killed with my death touch.

 

No, I think you just got overly mad and read implications into things that aren't there. At no point in time did I ever suggest an interest in actively playing or writing a chapter based upon those prospects. It might do you some good to stop jumping to conclusions. Personally, I don't care about the geneseed. If I were to actively try to redo any old IA I attempted at, or army worked on, chances are it would go Smurf or IF successor. Because simply put, I like their geneseeds. If someone else wants a traitor or lost legion geneseed, that being said, once again, I don't care. If they want to do it. Go ahead, but they better do it in a respectful and well thought out manner because things like that are hard to do and require a ton of effort to get it done right. I recognize this and I support people's endeavors in it. I just won't partake in it myself.

 

And you have overtly read much of the topic wrong in my opinion as well. The original post talked about SUGGESTION. One doesn't need to openly make fluff breaking statements when they can allude to it and appease both sides. And by using certain situations, timelines, and events, you can curve your suggestion so that it implies what you desire yet still leaves enough ground for someone to choose to believe differently. And even then, we are not talking about being different for the sake of being different. We are talking about being different for reasons you desire.

 

For example, one could say they like the Wordbearers chapter all together. Fluff behind it and everything. Now despite the fact that all chaplains are similar in concept, it doesn't automatically equate to the feel for the chapter the DIYer might desire. What if he wants that original legion as part of his chapter's history? As such he chooses the Wordbearer geneseed. Rather then piss off a crapton of people, as suggested here, he could just allude to the connection. If people choose not to believe him, they could take his chapter as simply being a successor of say the Imperial Fists or Blood Angels. By leaving his geneseed as unknown, and using fluff appropriately he can suggest they descend from the Wordbearers (to fulfill his desire) yet at the same time, leave room for people to justify in their minds other geneseeds. Hence both sides meet at a relatively similar ground.

 

At this point you are just mad and are seeing the entire topic as a complete breach of canon when in fact its more of suggestions to help keep closer to canon while still providing the original author's desires. And once again I disagree with you on one point:

 

Things that suck should be crushed. not "kindly escorted off the premises" as DAT put it. Why? Isn't that mean? Doesn't that drive people away? Yes, it does. That's a good thing. GHY said it better than I could too. People who want to improve will roll with the punches and make things better. People who come here looking for praise, or looking for people who know how to make a Chapter make their Chapter shouldn't be here. Doesn't this limit the community? No, it makes it better because the people who stick around are those who can pump out a Chapter that works, maybe pump out a Campaign, interact with others in a shared universe and move forward.

 

This right here. This is where I disagree. And not about rolling with the punches. Because yes, sometimes criticism is a good thing. Even harsh criticism. But there is a difference between rolling with a punch and rolling with a shot from a howitzer. And that doesn't mean the howitzer is justified. Sometimes members of the community attack things with relentless ire because they are tired of seeing something again and again. Rather then give the guy a fair chance. It's just an excuse to unleash all hell and pent up emotions/rage on the unsuspecting victim. Which is where we need to bite our tongues. Like I said, I do to a degree, feel that harsh criticism can be helpful, even if it is made to dissuade a concept. Provided that it is understood in the proper context. But sometimes it comes off more as a personal attack or comes off in a manner that is wild and unrestrained. Said posts are not in anyway helpful. They do not help someone get better. And they are definitely not in anyway conducive to the creative nature of the community. But that is just my feeling on the subject.

[Donkey Kong]

The original post talked about SUGGESTION. One doesn't need to openly make fluff breaking statements when they can allude to it and appease both sides. And by using certain situations, timelines, and events, you can curve your suggestion so that it implies what you desire yet still leaves enough ground for someone to choose to believe differently. And even then, we are not talking about being different for the sake of being different. We are talking about being different for reasons you desire.

 

The problem with this is that your asking for suggestions for doing something that many people here would flatly call wrong. To make a more drastic parallel (because every scenario can be deemed ridiculous by choosing its polar extreme like comparing the Holocaust to drowning an anthill or comparing... well drowning an anthill to the Holocaust), you're asking for advice on crossing the US-Mexican border.

 

The biggest problem is that to make something ambiguous it has to be done in such a way that something has to be absent altogether. Many people here would be angry enough if the Chapter didn't know it's gene-seed. And if you want to be different, regardless of reason, you still want to be different. There's nothing wrong with sticking out for a quirk, but just being different doesn't make sense. Look at all of the different Space Marine books, and tell me that it makes sense that there is a difference between Lightning Claws and Wolf Claws.

 

If people choose not to believe him, they could take his chapter as simply being a successor of say the Imperial Fists or Blood Angels. By leaving his geneseed as unknown, and using fluff appropriately he can suggest they descend from the Wordbearers (to fulfill his desire) yet at the same time, leave room for people to justify in their minds other geneseeds. Hence both sides meet at a relatively similar ground.

 

Please tell me how you choose not to believe someone about something they write? I fully believe that everyone here who has ever criticized Matt Ward writing about Calgar punching out an Avatar thinks he's an idiot. Having never read the story, I can't say whether or not it's fair criticism, and I can't say whether or not he's bad. But, between that fiasco and the one about Blood Angels and Necrons fighting against Tyranids together, it's a fairly safe bet that he's not exactly a fluff guru.

 

And not about rolling with the punches. Because yes, sometimes criticism is a good thing. Even harsh criticism. But there is a difference between rolling with a punch and rolling with a shot from a howitzer. And that doesn't mean the howitzer is justified.

 

The biggest thing for me about rolling with the punches as far as I'm concerned is that it has to do with the author, not the IA. If you go through the backlogs in this forum, you will see so much garbage that you will be glad has died and fallen by the wayside. You'll also find pieces of coal that you would have wished had been refined.

 

One of the threads I mentioned in a previous post concerns a Chapter known as the Phoenix Guard. I went digging for it so you could see it for yourself.

 

This idea was trash. There is no beating around the bush with this. This was a terrible idea. It had terrible execution. And it never got anywhere. Like I said, I don't think I've seen the author in this forum after that thread.

 

The biggest problem was that this whole thing had a flawed concept. Fulgrim's bodyguard was named after the Phoenix Guard. From that point on, it was sealed as a First Founding Legion, so unless he wanted to change the name, it was going to be that way. It also explains nothing about them being removed from Imperial records. There was nothing terribly unique about them. They were a legion for the sake of being a legion.

 

This was my first attempt at an IA. It was bad. My current IA reworking has gone through so many different steps, I'm afraid to look for all of them. Safe to say, what I learned from my failures in the first were reworked with my creation of the Executors. Lots of what I needed to do involved taking away nonsense. It takes people to tell authors that what they write is nonsense for them to remove it or rework it. Sometimes things need to be scrapped. Projects fall by the wayside, and people move on to take up new ones. People who don't probably didn't want help to be begin with and are better off out of here.

 

I still laugh at threads made by people who didn't expect to have to make any changes when what they make is criticized for, sometimes very large, flaws.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

One of the threads I mentioned in a previous post concerns a Chapter known as the Phoenix Guard. I went digging for it so you could see it for yourself.

 

I had to laugh.

 

Also, now very afraid of KHK.

[Ferrata]

Okay, I think we need all to take a step back. Lets get back to the more polite discussion we were having. I think we all need to remember this point:

 

This was my first attempt at an IA. It was bad.

My first ever DIY chapter can be seen here. The Gryphon Guard were a beautiful chapter, who had every cliche bar "Lost in the Warp"

On our first go at this, we all sucked big time. I have read countless chapters over my time here and I can still hold my hand on my heart and say "I've done the worst one." When I was first getting back into 40k, and the first time into the background, I was jumping over the place so much with which piece of fluff I was more in love with, I was like a teenage girl with boy bands. First Cypher was the coolest thing ever, so I made a chapter based around him. If I posted that chapter now, even with my status on this board and my years of reading/writing IAs, I would still expect to be taken outside and taught a very harsh lesson. Hell, I would do it to myself. A guy is falling from his drop pod as the Lion attempts to assaults Calbian. He prays to the Lion and the Emperor who both fail him. Chaos answers and he grows wings. Great, we have involvment in the Heresy and praying to the Lion already. He bumps into Cypher (who has just witnessed the final duel between Luthor and the Lion) and Cypher gives him a special mission (I know, you're hooked right now). He then gets out of dodge and hangs around for a while. Then a new chapter is founded and he some how convinces them to follow him, and therefore Cypher. Yeah, share-universe, you take that.

 

I could go on about 11th Company Imperial Fists, Heavily-Armoured, Fast-moving Vulkan lovers...It was a while before I landed on the name Wings of Death and decided to make them traitors. Even now, they are only just reaching completion and that was over 5 years ago. I don't expect everyone to take as long as that, I'm just slow, but you have to remember we all sucked at some point. Yes, even those who you thought were always giants did some dodgy chapters at some point.

 

How does this affect how we post? Well, I know it is easier to say "This is a bad idea." and leave it at that, but you should always attempt to support your point. Even if it is "This is a bad idea, you can achieve the same result by going a different way and you will have a more organic chapter". How many people here have learnt lots from the support of others? I don't expect KHK length posts from everyone, all the time. I don't expect more than three comments in every post, but you have to remember. If this was you, or someone you cared about, first coming into Liber, how would you feel about reading your post? You don't start a 11 year old boxing by throwing them in the ring with the world heavy weight champion in Vegas...

[Captain Juan Juarez]

You don't start a 11 year old boxing by throwing them in the ring with the world heavy weight champion in Vegas...

 

Well, some of us would...

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

In a discussion like this things are going to get heated. So long as they don't get totally out of hand then everything is alright.

 

How many people here have learnt lots from the support of others?

 

To be totally honest I've learned more from being given honest, backed up reasoning for how something won't work.

 

On balance I think the two different approaches have different places within C&C.

 

Brutal honesty and ruthless elimination of the flaws in someone's IA is the first step and must be backed up and reasoned through in order to make sure your criticism isn't being dismissed out of hand, that if the author intends to defend his work he will have to work to make sure it actually does make sense after all, or even rework it completely to the same result.

 

Congenial advice and suggestions come later, after the author and his posters have worked through the problems. Being supportive only works when you're supporting a worthy idea. You can't support something you don't agree with or don't think will work.

 

It's not right to expect everyone to be supportive regardless of whether the ideas are good or not.

 

Drilling to the center of the earth is not something I could support because I don't think it's a good idea. Should I be supportive of the guy who dreamed the project up? The furthest I'd go is to say "good on him for creativity" and it would be exactly that, a statement to the guy's creativity (for the sake of argument let's say drilling to the center of the earth is creative for some reason). I can't support the idea because I don't agree with it.

 

In the same manner, you can't expect everyone to give warm, soft and fuzzy platitudes and cheering when they don't agree with the work the author is putting forward.

 

Note to self ... KingHongKong takes this game waaaay to serious.

 

I am not a fan of this statement or the attitude behind it.

 

I can already see some vague battle-lines being drawn up here and I am firmly on KHK's side of the fence.

 

At the end of the day, everyone loves praise. Working for it makes you appreciate it more than expecting it for nothing. In the same way people who are given everything without ever having to work for it don't appreciate what they've got.

 

No not everything has to be taken seriously all the time, but that's why chapters like The Aristocracy and The Emperor's Nine-Millimeter Uzi's exist.

 

You know what, how about turning the entire concept of 'taking it too seriously' on it's head for a second.

 

You are a person who likes their dealings with the 40k universe and other hobbyists that work with it to be dealt with in a genial, non-serious and light hearted manner. You want to be able to do slightly zany things and get away with it because 'it's all fun and games' or 'it's just a game' ( :sweat: ).

 

Great! Good for you and I hope you have fun with it.

 

However, look at it from our perspective. We love the grimdark, oppressive nature of the 40k universe. We love how all the fluff fits together in a mismatched thousand-piece puzzle kind of way and that even with the inconsistencies how it still manages to be dark, grim and depressing. We enjoy that taking the universes internally serious undertones to heart makes it a more engaging and immersive experience to imagine and play with. We like playing inside the rules, having those restrictions and succeeding in a meta-universe sense is rewarding for us.

 

How do we like it when some (perceivably) care-bear like individual comes in bleeding happy-go lucky attitudes and a 'don't take it too seriously' catch phrase and trying to make everyone care less about the serious aspects, the aspects we enjoy?

 

You think we take it too seriously just to ruin your fun? How about the fact that your attitude could be ruining ours? No the two different camps aren't mutually exclusive but if you're going to complain about how taking everything too seriously (the amount of times I've used that phrase here is unbelievable B)) ruins your day then take a moment to think how you could be ruining ours.

[Ecritter]

You think we take it too seriously just to ruin your fun? How about the fact that your attitude could be ruining ours? No the two different camps aren't mutually exclusive but if you're going to complain about how taking everything too seriously (the amount of times I've used that phrase here is unbelievable ) ruins your day then take a moment to think how you could be ruining ours.

 

First, I take my work very seriously. If I didn't love the 40k universe, I wouldn't be here. But at the end of the day I realize it's all a game and unless the arguments become personal, I don't take it too seriously. What I'm getting at is that there comes a time when you just need to take a step back and say, "its just a game."

 

What Ferrata and others have pointed out is that there is a serious need to be kind (at least to some extent) and remember that nothing anyone says here takes away from your game experience. We are all miles (very long miles in most cases) apart and most will never play this game together. As long as personal attacks are kept out and you give 'kind' advice we're all happier. If no one wants to take your advice, that's fine too. You've said how you feel and tried to make others fit into your view of the universe, but you must realize that your view isn't the only one.

 

There is really no need to try to force others into your universe. As I said, this is science fiction and anything is possible ... it may not fit in your universe, but it can and will fit into someone's universe. Give advise, try to help, but at the same time at least try to understand that not everyone sees things your way. At the end of the day, everyone will be happier that way.

 

EDIT:

 

I just wanted to point out that though I see this as 'just a game', I don't actually play Warhammer. There are no players close to me and most likely never will be. Even so, I never forget what it is.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

First, I take my work very seriously. If I didn't love the 40k universe, I wouldn't be here. But at the end of the day I realize it's all a game and unless the arguments become personal, I don't take it too seriously. What I'm getting at is that there comes a time when you just need to take a step back and say, "its just a game."

 

The problem comes when you are deciding for someone else when 'it's just a game'.

 

You've said how you feel and tried to make others fit into your view of the universe, but you must realize that your view isn't the only one.

 

Actually I've not tried to force anyone to do anything. I'm among the first to admit that the advice I give is simply my opinion and interpretation of the facts available. After re-reading my post above I can't actually find anywhere where I state or even imply that you should view things the same way I do, or that difference of opinion is heresy of any sort.

 

Your entire post is geared around the fact that you seem to think that I'm trying to strong-arm you and anyone else into thinking the same way as I do, which is rubbish.

 

What I'm saying is that your interpretation of what should be taken as seriously as some of us do, and what shouldn't isn't the be-all and end-all. We all have different levels of commitment to the 40k universe and different levels of interpretation of some of the facts within. On the other side of the coin I don't expect anyone to take what I say or believe to be gospel, if I did I'd essentially be one of those god-forsaken bible-pushers who knock on your door and try to sell you god. Give me a break.

 

KHK disagrees with me on a fundamental crux point in my IA. Have I then tried to convince him that I am right and he is wrong? I've definitely explained why I came to the conclusion I have and given my reasons for it and he has stated his own. We agree to disagree on that point because of a mutual respect for the other's opinion and different interpretations.

 

Do we each silently think we are right and the other is wrong? Probably, we all do that to a greater or lesser extent and I won't say that I haven't privately thought others were simply 'wrong' because they don't agree with me, but stepping back from myself and my ego I am more than able to see the fallacy of this type of thinking and discard it appropriately.

 

 

What Ferrata and others have pointed out is that there is a serious need to be kind (at least to some extent) and remember that nothing anyone says here takes away from your game experience.

 

If you read what I've posted above before this one I've actually been an advocate of not being a total bastard when disapproving of someone's ideas. Undue harshness and insults aren't conducive to a pleasant working environment for everyone.

 

If you'd been here long enough you'd also have found earlier posts of me fervently arguing or disagreeing with people like Octavulg and Heru Talon when they posted in absolutes like 'no' or 'this is just wrong' with no reasoning or justification for the statement.

 

(* Disclaimer: Please don't hurt me with your bowling ball Batman, or beat me with the Spinal Flail these are examples only! <_< *)

 

 

Please, don't call me out on something I wasn't saying. If you think I was, re-read what I said.

 

 

*Edit* Typos.. et tu typo?

[Ferrata]

To be totally honest I've learned more from being given honest, backed up reasoning for how something won't work.

I believe you have misunderstood what I meant by being supportive. I don't mean it in the sense of supporting someone whatever they say, I mean it in the way that you are responsible, mature and overall offering a helping a hand in creating a chapter. So you aren't been meanly critical, but this doesn't mean you cannot be critical. Lets say I posted by Cypher chapter, a supportive poster would go "The linking with Cypher really breaks the suspension, what is you want to achieve?". An unsupportive poster would go "This is a bad idea." There isn't that much of a different but there is a difference to a new poster. The first doesn't overly discourage them from creating a chapter, merely makes them think about the path they are taking. The second could persaude someone not to create a chapter.

 

So, in short, being supportive is not pointing out the flaws in someones IAs, it is doing it in a manner that allows them to grow and continue, not in a manner that discourages them.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

So, in short, being supportive is not pointing out the flaws in someones IAs, it is doing it in a manner that allows them to grow and continue, not in a manner that discourages them.

 

Ah now I see, I agree! Well that cleared that up.

 

To be clear, I don't think being supportive is cuddling the author and telling them everything is going to be alright so long as they try.

 

That's not being supportive, it's being an enabler of bad habits. Being supportive is being critical, but urging the author to keep going and providing avenues to pursue in order to help them improve their game.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

I don't get why "This is a bad idea." is such a big deal.. If I think something is, I'll say so and it will be my opinion and that is something I don't feel I need to justify.

 

Bad = bad, no matter the reason.

[Ecritter]

GHY, forgive me but it was my mistake not explaining as to who the 'you' was in my previous statement. The fact that if followed your statement, and a quote from you was used first may have added to this. That quote was only to be used for the first paragraph. In the rest, the 'you' was anyone in this community and not directed at you personally.

 

As a community we all have our own view as to how the 40k universe operates. What I was saying is that there is no need for anyone in this community to try to force their view on anyone else.