Of DIY, Founding and Geneseeds

[Ferrata]

I don't get why "This is a bad idea." is such a big deal.. If I think something is, I'll say so and it will be my opinion and that is something I don't feel I need to justify.

From an educational point of view, you don't just tell someone they are wrong, you need to explain to them why they are wrong. Otherwise, all they learn from it is that Thing A is wrong - a blank statement fact. If you explain why they are wrong, they can do this. Thing A is wrong because of B, this means that Thing C is also wrong. You do need to justify it on the board otherwise a new poster isn't going to be able to grow. Remember when you were first here, it was better for people to describe to you what was wrong with an idea instead of just sayin the idea is wrong. For example:

 

7 x 4 = 11

This is wrong, you've added them instead of multiplying them.

 

This person will now know to check they have done the right thing, whereas if you had just put "Wrong", then they might think it was 10 or 12.

 

Being supportive is being critical, but urging the author to keep going and providing avenues to pursue in order to help them improve their game.

So we are on the same page.

[Marshal Renatus]

This has devolved very quickly from a discussion on using unorthodox/non-canon geneseed, to a very good discussion on the merits of various C&C delivery systems, and now to individual barbs on who does what and how.

 

To me this all boils down to two very simple solutions. First, the Mods rule absolutely. If someone is being offensive or generally destabilizing to a thread then they have the authority and responsibility to address it. Second, we all, as members of this community, have the authority and responsibility to call out our fellow Liberites for being jerks. There is a PM function here for a reason. So Ferrata or Octavulg or CJJ or KHK or whoever hate you for the rest of your life...unless you live next door to them or game with them, who cares?

 

To quote Spiderman, "With great power comes great responsibility." We all hold that power as new ideas get posted and new members arrive, it is up to us as the members of the forum to police ourselves. We should quote sources when they're available, and, if not, give a detailed reason for why our opinion is what it is. If a Mod has to get involved it's already a lost battle because the negative outcome is out there for everyone to read.

 

Bottom line? Act like a mature adult. If you like the "whimsical game" aspect of WH40K then take the hint when posting on someone's work that prefers the "Canon is canon, and may I please have my grimdark back?" And the same in reverse. If someone posts that what your doing is "impossible" politely tell them that you understand their reasoning, but you're doing it for fun anyway. If you're the one saying it's "impossible" take the hint, lol. Go find a fellow GrimDark-er and commisserate the imminent demise of the Imperium.

 

This thread has started to make all of us look like a bunch of children that can't play nice. My $0.02

[Captain Juan Juarez]

How dare you.. I hate you all by rote anyway! <_<

 

EDIT: The InterWebz are the realm of people that can't play nice, it's how it works.. Or we'd all be outside in the sunshine with a cold beverage and a buxom woman :lol:

[Marshal Renatus]

CJJ: <_< My buxom woman works all the freaking time, so you all are stuck with me.

 

To those that I mentioned in my earlier post, you're only there because I value your opinions and comments, and I recognize you as a positive force in the forum. So be flattered I mentioned you, take no offense.

[Octavulg]

You're not even necessarily supporting him. You're supporting what you're saying. And if you can't support what you're saying, you shouldn't say it.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

And if you can't support what you're saying, you shouldn't say it.

 

I don't think you're funny.. You've yet to make a successful joke in my time around you.

 

 

I supported that statement, doesnt make me right though.. Even though I am

[Octavulg]

You've yet to make a successful joke in my time around you.

 

I dunno. I created you as you are today.

 

Oh, wait. You said successful joke.

 

Never mind.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

You've yet to make a successful joke in my time around you.

 

I dunno. I created you as you are today. That seems pretty funny.

 

/epicfail

 

My own joke of a life is the product of several years of careful self-destruction, alienating all who have ever loved me or even just liked me.

 

You think too highly of your skills, young Padawan learner.

[Octavulg]

Your protestations are more convincing to those of us who don't remember your personal pantheon.

 

Apostasy is a sin, you know.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

So we are on the same page.

 

Seems like it!

 

This thread has started to make all of us look like a bunch of children that can't play nice.

 

Well I wouldn't say that. I argued with Ecritter personally because I was backing up what I said. Was I perhaps a little overzealous? Yeah probably a bit, but I don't bear anyone any real ill-will, I just get 'into' arguments and debates as I enjoy them so much.

 

Matching wits with someone in a true, true debate or argument in this manner is one of my favorite things, so long as it doesn't get personal or overly emotional, it's all entertainment for me. That said, perhaps I am a bit too vehement in my arguments, but I won't apologize for it, I just know what I feel most strongly about.

 

Also, having these sorts of undercurrents running in the Liber can often as not lead to problems and trouble between posters. Having a hashing out of everyone's issues can provide a better working environment for everyone since it's all free and clear for all to see. I don't like people not saying something or not telling me they have a problem with me 'because it's not nice' or something equally silly. If you disagree with me, let me know.

 

To those that I mentioned in my earlier post, you're only there because I value your opinions and comments, and I recognize you as a positive force in the forum. So be flattered I mentioned you, take no offense.

 

I take offense that I wasn't mentioned! You mention CJJ and not me? Pah, you sir are so totally wrong.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

To those that I mentioned in my earlier post, you're only there because I value your opinions and comments, and I recognize you as a positive force in the forum. So be flattered I mentioned you, take no offense.

 

I take offense that I wasn't mentioned! You mention CJJ and not me? Pah, you sir are so totally wrong.

 

I always thought of myself as a "What Not To Do or Be.." Advert.

 

** Plots the Doom of Batman **

[Heru]

To those that I mentioned in my earlier post, you're only there because I value your opinions and comments, and I recognize you as a positive force in the forum. So be flattered I mentioned you, take no offense.

 

I take offense that I wasn't mentioned! You mention CJJ and not me? Pah, you sir are so totally wrong. :P

The only reason I wasn't mentioned is because everyone knows that my hate is something to be feared. If I hate you, you will cry for three months and attempt to kill yourself for seven months following that. If you survive you'll end up working in a sewage management plant in the remotest part of Russia for the rest of your days, jumping in fear at every skull and spine shaped shadow.

[Donkey Kong]

I had to laugh.

Also, now very afraid of KHK.

 

Be afraid. Be very afraid :D .

 

I believe you have misunderstood what I meant by being supportive. I don't mean it in the sense of supporting someone whatever they say, I mean it in the way that you are responsible, mature and overall offering a helping a hand in creating a chapter. So you aren't been meanly critical, but this doesn't mean you cannot be critical. Lets say I posted by Cypher chapter, a supportive poster would go "The linking with Cypher really breaks the suspension, what is you want to achieve?". An unsupportive poster would go "This is a bad idea." There isn't that much of a different but there is a difference to a new poster. The first doesn't overly discourage them from creating a chapter, merely makes them think about the path they are taking. The second could persaude someone not to create a chapter.

 

So, in short, being supportive is not pointing out the flaws in someones IAs, it is doing it in a manner that allows them to grow and continue, not in a manner that discourages them.

 

If presented with this chapter, I'd ask what your intentions were. Unfortunately, everything would basically boil down to "scrap it". This goes back to the core themes of a Chapter. The way I developed the Executors, it went like this:

 

Q: Question

A: Answer

C: Criticism

 

Q: "What do you want them to be?"

A: Loyalist Space Marine Pirates

C: Cool!

Q: How do you figure that will work?

A: They'll be like the characters in Pirates of the Caribbean! They'll have a company that gets lost in the warp and they'll become like Davy Jones's Crew!

C: Pretty cool, now how would they get lost? How would you make it believable? Why aren't they chaotic? Are they recognized renegades? Etc.

After several attempts at developing that idea, I decided it just didn't work and scrapped it.

 

Q: "What are they like now?"

A: They hate traitors!

C: Cool!

Q: Tell me why

A: Their founder was a member of the Ultramarines during the Great Crusade and saw the Word Bearers attack Calth!

C: Okay

Q: When were they founded?

A: The Ninth Founding

C: That's too late, make it earlier

A: The Third Founding

C: He's still a little old, make him younger during the Heresy

A: Okay!

 

This process of support, discussion, and decision basically built the Chapter. That's awesome. But from those examples alone, look at how much was changed or scrapped.

 

There were so many changes:

Silver Skulls Cadre to White Councils Cadre

Ninth Founding to Third Founding

Pirates in space to the purgers of traitors

Captain Filo Howl to Captain Rocha Filo

Captain Astos Narrik to Chapter Champion Astos Narrik

Redoing the home world about a dozen times, including near complete overhauls

 

Not to mention getting rid of:

A lost company and an eleventh company

A Chapter Land Raider-Exorcist hybrid

 

The most important part about all of these things was that I was the most active person criticizing my own work. I wanted to make it better, so I made it better. I invited people to tear it apart, but I tore it apart many times myself. To make an IA fit the universe, it needs to have outside input, but the most input has to come from the author. The author has to be willing to make changes. Sometimes your intentions just don't work, and even asking about them isn't going to get very far.

 

I hate bashing Doctor Thunder, but it's the best example I can think of. His intention was to have an army of action girls. That was it. How can we make that work? We can make them Sororitas? But they're traitors. Do they have to be space marines or have the implants and abilities? To him they did, since they had to be action girls and the most action action men were Space Marines making Space Marine women would make the pieces fit. Do they need to have power armor? I guess they did.

 

The biggest problem? It just didn't work. There are so many action women in the galaxy, including Imperials, traitors, and xenos. Do we really need you to write up something that mine as well be across between genestealers, power armor, and the Species series.

 

I fully support tearing something apart and pointing out all its flaws, including putting it down if need be. However, I stand by everyone who says that every bit of criticism should come with a healthy dose of explanation and reasoning.

 

I take offense that I wasn't mentioned! You mention CJJ and not me? Pah, you sir are so totally wrong. :lol:

 

You should be having an even bigger problem with the fact that I was mentioned and you weren't. I never get mentioned by anyone unless it's to say that I'm the American in the corner working on the Chapter of space pirates and typically begging for help before getting booted to the second page only to bump myself with a massive post that's really just a whine for help, rinse, and repeat.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

EDIT: My mind was not working.

[Marshal Renatus]

@ GHY: I agree with you completely that people should be open and honest in their comments, critique, and dialogue. What I don't think helps is seemingly endless rants about what we all despise/hate/loathe seeing in the forum. Which is where I sort of feel like we are now. Enough folks have expessed the "be honest but polite"message and enough folks have accepted that message with a "yeah, ok, sorta, I'll see what I can do" response/thought process that I think we've hit our terminal learning objective and are approaching diminishing returns.

 

@DAT: I'm not sure what your last post references, but agree with you whole-heartedly on the "just be polite" message. If it really is absolute trash that you're reading and the OP won't take any criticism...just stop commenting, lol. My experience is that silence can be the strongest rebuke possible. Anyone can scream and yell. It takes a real steely :lol: to just sit there and watch you flounder through your own personal minefield, lol.

 

In any hoot, them thar is my owe-pine-yuns.

[Aegnor]

I want to read more about Hong-Kong's Pirates of the Caribbean in Spaaaace.

 

 

Seriously.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

Wait... what just happened to common courtesy? Simply because it's advocate stopped posting doesn't give you the excuse to stop practicing it.

 

What in the world are you talking about?

 

 

 

 

@Renatus: Fair cop, on reflection I think you're right.

 

I want to read more about Hong-Kong's Pirates of the Caribbean in Spaaaace.

 

Be glad you didn't! ;)

[Captain Juan Juarez]

...that's really just a whine for help, rinse, and repeat.

 

Whine enough an eventually someone will pay attention, even if that someone is me :)

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Wait... what just happened to common courtesy? Simply because it's advocate stopped posting doesn't give you the excuse to stop practicing it.

 

What in the world are you talking about?

...My bad. I became... slightly confused, to be putting it mildly. I'll be re-editing....

[Lord Scytha]

I will bring back my argument to one very simple blurb that I like to call Sanguinius's Hair. Part of me wants everyone to quote this whenever people bring up the canon question, but sadly I know that that won't be happening any time soon.

 

Sanguinius has aspects that are far more important than this. He's the Primarch of the Blood Angels Legion. He died fighting Horus. He was the most beloved Primarch during the Great Crusade. He has wings. Why does his hair matter? Because an author by the name of Graham McNeill decided to screw with everyone over one of the most trivial things imaginable, the color of Sanguinius's hair.

 

Before this, every illustration depicting Sanguinius that has him bare headed shows the primarch with long, blonde hair. Every. Last. One. Then the Horus Heresy novel A Thousand Sons came along, and had this to say:

 

The second figure wore armour of deepest crimson, the colour vital and urgent. Wings of dappled black and white rustled at his back, the feathers hung with fine loops of silver wire and mother of pearl. Hair of deepest black framed a face that was pale and classically shaped, like one of the thousand of marble likenesses that garrisoned the Imperial Palace of Terra. Yet this was no lifeless rendering of a long-dead luminary; this was a living, breathing angel made flesh, whose countenance was the most beautiful in existence.

'Lord Sanguinius,' said Ahriman in wonder.

 

A Thousand Sons page 309 by Graham McNeill

 

I read the A Thousand Sons cover to cover. I didn't even notice this on my first read through. Let's ignore the fact that this paragraph was written during the trial at Nikea, and let's ignore that McNeill did not write it so that the Emperor banned sorcery, but all librarians. Something as trivial as the color of Sanguinius's hair is not even canon.

Like the big girl he is Sanguinius dyes his hair. ;)

 

I'm going to burn in hell for this but when I read this I couldn't stop myself from thinking; "wonder if the carpet matches the curtains." :blush:

 

The problem with this is that your asking for suggestions for doing something that many people here would flatly call wrong.

 

 

As long as you prove why it's wrong.

Coming from the world of academics the biggest trouble I have with most of the criticism here and on the net in general is most people makes categorical statements without backing them up with either proof or a logical argument.

Most arguments and criticism instead just follows the formula of the statement: "That's wrong. You can't do that." and if you are lucky it's followed by a because then at least you get a clue to why something is wrong but you still have to guess how valid that reason is since you have know way of knowing if its the poster's own opinion, fantasies or if it's actually based on facts.

 

On the other hand if a person instead says; "That's wrong because it says so on page 34 of the second edition of the Dark Angels Codex" and then provides a quote you know for a fact that the person have grounds for claiming something is wrong.

 

And this isn't really about making criticism better or arguments stronger.

It's about credibility.

If you can show that you are basing your arguments on facts (or in this case canon from official books publish by GW and its affiliates) this will give you credibility and people will take your critic more serious thus won't get as defensive about their ideas because they are forced to accept that their idea at least doesn't follow GW's vision of the world.

And if you have high credibility people will even take things you can't back up serious too while if you lack credibility any arguments you have will quickly derail in says you contests and people will stop taking you serious.

 

For example I had an argument of an particularly aspect of space marines with a person here which basically followed the lines of I was for it and he was against it. Now after several round of "normal" internet arguments I got frustrated so I started to going through all my 40k literature and found several quotes that supported my side. Yet the person kept insisting that he was right and without showing any proof of his own to support it. The end result was that I didn't even read his last post because he lost all credibility in my eyes that nothing he said, good or bad (and there were plenty of good), was worth anything to me because nothing he could say would make me believe it just wasn't his own biased opinion.

 

And it's not just the credibility of one person. In the end it's also about the credibility of B&C in general.

Now the Liber (I hope at least) is about making IA's as true to the "official" fluff as possible but if all the C&C posts just follows the usual lines of your wrong arguments without ever backing them up then a new visitor would have no way of knowing if the persons here was following GW's visions or was just trying to promote their own fan-based universe.

 

 

As for logical arguments they are much more iffier but basically follows what Ferrata says here.

And he even makes my point for me. Bloody kill steal. ;)

 

 

I don't get why "This is a bad idea." is such a big deal.. If I think something is, I'll say so and it will be my opinion and that is something I don't feel I need to justify.

From an educational point of view, you don't just tell someone they are wrong, you need to explain to them why they are wrong. Otherwise, all they learn from it is that Thing A is wrong - a blank statement fact. If you explain why they are wrong, they can do this. Thing A is wrong because of B, this means that Thing C is also wrong. You do need to justify it on the board otherwise a new poster isn't going to be able to grow. Remember when you were first here, it was better for people to describe to you what was wrong with an idea instead of just sayin the idea is wrong. For example:

 

7 x 4 = 11

This is wrong, you've added them instead of multiplying them.

 

This person will now know to check they have done the right thing, whereas if you had just put "Wrong", then they might think it was 10 or 12.

 

Being supportive is being critical, but urging the author to keep going and providing avenues to pursue in order to help them improve their game.

So we are on the same page.

 

 

And I believe that losing worlds due to rounding errors and the Imperial Guard fighting like Mother Russia in the second World War is all an exercise in people believe that the Imperium is stupid, and I hate everyone who believes the Imperium is stupid.

 

Hate all you want and believe all you want but if you say it isn't true you'd be wrong and I can prove it. ;)

[Captain Juan Juarez]

If the point is you can prove the Imperium isn't stupid, you are wrong.. You can prove circumstances of stupidity, on either a greater or lesser scale, but as a whole the Imperium isn't stupid it's just locked into a very specific, and stagnating, cycle.

[Lord Scytha]

If the point is you can prove the Imperium isn't stupid, you are wrong.. You can prove circumstances of stupidity, on either a greater or lesser scale, but as a whole the Imperium isn't stupid it's just locked into a very specific, and stagnating, cycle.

 

Was more referring to that the Imperium do lose entire worlds to rounding errors and that the IG does send millions of men to their death in massive human wave attacks. It wasn't really seriously meant.

[Machine God]

Hello Folks.

 

What a wonderfull and informative thread.

 

I am more of a Lurker in Liber land, preferring Index for the Fluff. I am not a very good painter, but I love doing conversions.

 

Liber Astartes. Don't do 2nd Foundings or Lost Legions, got it. I am not much for writing anyway.

 

< Dons Asbestos Suit > What about Chapters wearing eqivalent Tech to PA, that left Earth and the Milky Way in The Dark Age of Technology that return to see what state the Old Country is in?

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

There were no marines during the 'Dark' Age of Technology. They came after the Emperor, who came during the Age of Strife, which came after the aforementioned age of technology. Also, the marines were in Legions, such as the Ultramarines or the Luna Wolves. Instead, you could try making a thing, as it wouldn't exactly be an IA, about part of a Legion who were with Fleet XYZ, and were split off more however many years, similar to the Word Bearers fleet that went to Cadia and the Eye of Terror for a long time, then came back for supplies. I don't know how solid this may be, but make sure you avoid things like 'lost in the Warp', or 'significant impact on Heresy'. At most, I would do one company, and that might be pushing it.

 

And strangely and magically, this ties in with the current topic(!). I can hear you know, your eager little voices crying out, "How, CMID, how?". Alright, probably not. But it does tie in. After I stop rambling. See, this is what I think a good piece of criticism should be like:

1. Explain clearly, but not cruelly(as in not Haha! You are a complete failure! Haha!), or too harshly to scare them away forever, what is wrong.

2. Explain why it is wrong, and what the correct answer is. Back this up with sources, such as Lexicanum, if necessary.

3. Insert an interesting little tidbit of fluff, such as the thing about the different names of the Luna Wolves, if you feel like it. This broadens their knowledge, makes writing this more interesting, and serves to dilute any overly harsh statements.

4. Tell them what you would do instead, using what you believe their aim to be.

*Please Note* Harshness is often a good idea for certain subjects that should be impressed strongly into one's brain as a big 'No!', such as female marines. It should not, however, he used without explaining why something is wrong, i.e. "No! You should never do female marines! You are an evil person, and your children, and your children's children, and all future generations will be brutally mutated to make them similar to our friends homo Erectus!(I can't remember the capitalization rules for these things.)"

[Machine God]

< Dons Asbestos Suit > What about Chapters wearing eqivalent Tech to PA, that left Earth and the Milky Way in The Dark Age of Technology that return to see what state the Old Country is in?

 

Thank you CMID.

 

Stupid me, I should have said a Martial Force of MEQ's utilizing PA on return leg of an inter-galactic journey.