IA: Jade Emperors

[HarasinCreed]

So my basic idea for this army is that they will be very samouri centered. As for the actual background this is what i have thought up so far:

 

These are the remainder of the Second Legion(i know everyone hates the idea of using the second legion but well deal with it) the primarch(we will call him Jake untill i think of a good name) was blinded at birth and rased in the world by a Guild of samouri and through there teachings managed to work without eyesight instead opting to use a form of sonar because of his hightened senses it was rather effective. After reaching guildmaster status he attempted to unight all of the other Guilds and bring down the corrupt government that surrounded them. After fighting for 20 years the Government had killed off all but the strongest portions of the rebelion. KNowing that the corze was lost he called on someone to help him. And the Chaos god _____ responded granting him Demon Prince Hood in the form of a dragon and making his closest warriors practically unstopable. With this new found power Jake ravanged the opressors and set the world Zurmaro free. Shortly afterwards the Emperor of Mankind came to Zurmaro and delighted to have found a Primarch he happily accepted him and his chosen followers into the legion. Only after 1 year did Jake and his men start to show the seeds of Chaos. The emperor seing this tried to stop it but so far gone was Jake that it could not be stopped. Not wanting to destroy one of his own sons he exilled him to the plannet Zurmaro allong with every single one of the Jade Emperors and removed all record of ever finding them destroying all space ships leaving them marrooned for good.......or so he thought.

 

So i know it is kind of ruff but it is a start feedback appreciated.

[Ecritter]

Firstly, I have no problem with using either Traitor or Lost Legion Geneseed. Now that being said, this idea just doesn't work for me.

 

Major problem I see is the fact that he was a Daemon Prince when the Emperor arrived. The Emperor would have known immediately and there would have been no Legion left for him to corrupt.

 

Other major problem is the cause of them being erased from all records. Since we know, through the Heresy of Horus, that about 1/2 of the Primarch turned to Chaos and were not erased ... this alone would not be sufficient cause for this punishment.

 

Use Lost Legion Geneseed if you must, but you're going to have to come up with much more plausible reasons for the complete erasure of the records.

[HarasinCreed]

Thanks for the reply. I was not clear enough the Emperor erased the records of them because this was before the Horus Heresy and did not want other legions or Primarchs to follow suit. As to the whole Demon Prince thing i know what u mean im just putting ideas out there that need to be worked on.

 

Ed

[NightrawenII]

*Shoots HarasinCreed in between eyes and burns his work with flamer.*

 

Any other questions?

 

Edit: To be at least constructive a little ;):

Generally speaking, the "Don'ts" are here to discourage the new DIYers from repeating the past mistakes and draws their attention to the problems the "Don'ts" brings.

Another thing with "Don'ts" is that they are hard to justify and often clash with the Universe rather than to mesh with the Universe (thanks Apothete :huh: ). Even if the DIYer puts some effort to justify such "clash", it's often not smooth enough. For this reason it's advised against, because the outcome might not be worth the effort.

Lastly, this is the matter of the creativity vs. uniqueness for the uniqueness sake. The female marines are prime example of this. The new and "ignorant" DIYer is still exploring the lore and thinks, that the female marines are good idea, because every Space marine Chapter is male only. Difference doesn't make your Chapter interesting or imaginative, only unique.

 

In my personal opinion, the DIYer should aim to explore and fill the blanks in the W40k lore, not exploit and thrusts himself in the blanks of the W40k lore. In my book, "creative" means follow the rules and work in the restraints of Universe in order to produce something, which is true to W40k lore.

For me anything, what is not true or add odds with W40k lore, pays great disrespect to the Universe, we all love.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

Honestly I think you're biting off more than you can chew with the usage of lost legions.

 

I'd advise thinking just what you want from the chapter in terms of character before you go overboard on the universe-breaking concepts that just about all and sundry on this sub-forum will object to.

[Ecritter]

Now that I'm home from work with all my reference material I can go through and give you a better breakdown as to why this won't work.

 

KNowing that the corze was lost he called on someone to help him. And the Chaos god _____ responded granting him Demon Prince Hood in the form of a dragon and making his closest warriors practically unstopable.

 

I'm gonna quote the Lexicanum to give my reasons against this:

 

"Daemons are entities of the warp, and servants of the Gods of Chaos. They are created at the whim of a Chaos god from a fraction of the god's own power and act as an extension of their will. A daemon's appearance and character reflect the god's own nature. These daemons may be reabsorbed into the god at whim." The Chaos Gods don't quickly give up a part of themselves for anything.

 

"Being an entity of the warp (a dimension of the immaterial) a daemon cannot exist for long periods of time in real space, any more than a mortal can survive unprotected in warp space. There are a few ways a daemon can breach the walls separating warp from real space and gain entry into the mortal universe." Those ways are as follows:

 

* "Instead of being summoned into real space, a daemon may enter the mind of a mortal (the mind of a psyker is the most susceptible to this), and turn the individual to its will and, through its host, affect reality." If this were the case, Pirmarch "Jake" would no longer be Primarch "Jake" but someone else completely. No way to hide his true nature to anyone.

 

* "In order to enter real space in greater numbers Daemons need to use Warp rifts. These are breaches in the fabric of reality that can vary in nature and size. At times a Daemon can possess a mortal and turn him into a portal through which whole hosts can pass. These daemonic incursions can taint real space severely, often twisting and reshaping whole planets until they are lost and turned into Daemon Worlds." Impossible to hide the fact that a world is a Daemon World, they're completed warped.

 

Now that was just to become a Daemon, a Daemon Prince is completely different.

 

* "The followers of Chaos try to gain the attention of their gods in order to gain terrible power and great rewards. Those striving in the way of their god are known as Chaos Champions, whose ultimate, driving goal is to transcend mortality by becoming a Daemon Prince. Those who become Daemon Princes are counted among the most powerful creatures of Chaos, second only to the Chaos Gods themselves. However this path can as easily lead to another extreme. Throughout the path to power the Champion undergoes constant change, until either the god judges him worthy of Daemonic ascension or his form finally is overcome by the accumulated mutations and he descends into a mindless Chaos Spawn." So to have become a Daemon Prince he'd first have to have been a Chaos Champion, and earned the right.

 

* None of the Other Primarchs that became Daemons or Daemon Princes did so outside the warp. It only happened after they retreated to the warp.

 

As to the abilities of his followers, even Chaos Marines are not "practically unstopable."

 

Now on to why he turned to Chaos in the first place. Every Primarch that turned to Chaos had very good (at least in their minds) reasons for doing so.

 

* Fulgrim: "It is now believed that this daemonsword (Laeran) began to exert a strong chaotic influence over Fulgrim, and that the forces he had deployed against the Laer may have become tainted by the Chaos power Slaanesh. It is in this parlous spiritual condition that Fulgrim found himself at the centre of the emerging Horus Heresy." "Horus was able to sway Fulgrim to his cause. Fulgrim's respect for Horus allowed Chaos to find it's way into Fulgrim's heart, destroying Fulgrim's loyalty to Terra, and replacing it with burning desire to destroy the man who held humanity back from the perfection Fulgrim desired."

 

* Perturabo: "Perturabo was leading his Iron Warriors on a campaign to cleanse the Hrud Warrens on Gugann when he received news that his home world, Olympia, was in rebellion. Dammekos was long dead but demagogues had brought the people together and risen in arms. The thought of being the only primarch who could not control his own homeworld appalled him. Horus made the most of the opportunity by presenting Perturabo with a hammer named Forgebreaker. It is possible that this weapon was one by which the powers of Chaos could influence and manipulate the thoughts of the wielder. Alternatively it could have been seen to be a signing of a pact, a gift from Horus to Perturabo. Perturabo purged Olympia city by city, overrunning the fortresses he had built and sparing no one. By the time the massacre was over, five million Olympians had been killed and the rest put into slavery. Perturabo looked on in cold silence. After the pyres were burning, the Iron Warriors realized what they had done. They were no more the saviours of the Imperium, destroying the Hrud one moment and the next they were committing genocide. Perturabo realized the Emperor could never forgive him for what he had done."

 

* Konrad Curze: "Learning of the fate of his homeworld, Night Haunter tried to confide in his brother Primarchs, but had never been close to them in the beginning, and their reaction was less than favourable to his claims. He attacked Rogal Dorn of the Imperial Fists before taking the Night Lords fleet to Nostramo. A few Imperial pursuit craft arrived just in time to see the Night Lord's laser batteries firing into the hole left by Night Haunter's arrival decades earlier. Nostramo's core overheated and the world exploded." "Night Haunter's terrible acts caused him to become susceptible to the whispers of Chaos. The campaigns of the Night Lords became less justifiable, terror campaigns leaving a trail of devastated worlds across the galaxy. Night Haunter no longer crusaded in the Emperor's name, instead fighting only in the name of death and fear. Eventually, the Emperor was forced to order the recall of Night Haunter to answer charges laid against him and his men. But before the Night Lords reached Terra a new crisis erupted."

 

* Angron: "The Emperor himself criticized Angron for the changes he made to his recruits. Like all other gladiators on his homeworld, Angron had received special nerve-implants which tremendously heightened his aggressiveness, but also had the side effect of uncontrollable rages outside of battle. Angron ordered his Techmarines to duplicate the technology and that all recruits undergo the process that would turn them into aggressive and fearless warriors. Despite the obvious advantages, the Emperor was displeased, and ordered him to stop. Angron paid him no heed and continued the unsavory practice secretly."

 

* Mortarion: "Mortarion did not need possessing by any Chaos power, for he joined the rebellion by his free will. Horus had promised him a new time where the mighty ruled. With the entire Death Guard fleet, Mortarion set off to Terra to join the siege." Okay, he was just plain greedy.

 

* Magnus the Red: "The events on Davin were eclipsed by this debate, but when Magnus returned to Prospero and looked into the Warp, he saw the entire event unfold in front of him, seeing the roles of all the legions, except his own. He contacted the Emperor, certain that this would prove his psychic methods correct. Unfortunately, the Emperor denounced him, saying he had fallen to the side of Chaos by breaking his oath not to use sorcery." Emperor's mistake on this one.

 

* Horus: "During a mission on the Feral World Davin, Horus was wounded in battle, but the natives of the world helped to heal him. Many modern scholars believe that the group of healers were actually Chaos Cultists who somehow managed to take advantage of the illness in the Primarch. After this healing, changes in Horus began to occur. It seems from then on, Horus planned and plotted to overthrow the Emperor in what was to become known as the Horus Heresy."

 

* Lorgar: "It was this event (being reprimanded by the Emperor) that turned the Word Bearers to Chaos. Whilst Lorgar brooded over the Emperor's reproach, Kor Phaeron, his trusted lieutenant and closest friend, whispered to Lorgar of the great Chaos gods: beings that welcomed, even demanded zealous worship and devotion. Lorgar was slowly poisoned against the Emperor by Kor Phaeron, who was appointed Master of the Faith, and was tasked with converting the entire legion to Chaos." He wanted a god to worship, if the Emperor didn't want his worship .. he'd find someone that did.

 

* Alpharius: "It has long been supposed that since Alpharius was only familiar with one other Primarch, Horus, it was self-explanatory why he chose the side he did at the outset of the Heresy. Indeed, the very plan at Isstvan V where Horus struck his first blow against his fellow Legions by destroying most of the Iron Hands, Raven Guard and Salamanders Legions in a massive ambush, was very reminiscent of plans that Alpharius had created in the past."

 

Shortly afterwards the Emperor of Mankind came to Zurmaro and delighted to have found a Primarch he happily accepted him and his chosen followers into the legion.

 

As I've pointed out, there would have been no way the Emperor would not have known he was a Chaos Daemon, much less a Daemon Prince. He would have easily killed him.

 

The emperor seing this tried to stop it but so far gone was Jake that it could not be stopped. Not wanting to destroy one of his own sons he exilled him to the plannet Zurmaro allong with every single one of the Jade Emperors and removed all record of ever finding them destroying all space ships leaving them marrooned for good.......or so he thought.

 

Okay, you've just created 20 of the most powerful beings in the universe and find that one not only has turned against you, but is sworn to destroy you and all you believe in. Lock him up ... no. Chaos has already proven that it can reach every planet in the universe. Remember the Primarchs were taken from Luna by the Chaos gods ... the Emperor knew that no planet was going to be safe to hide this man on.

 

Why they were removed from all records. Lets give Horus for an example.

 

* Turned to Chaos

* Turned 1/2 of your Legions to Chaos

* Led a rebellion against the Imperium of Man

* Attacked Holy Terra

* Killed another Primarch

* Almost killed the Emperor

* Did not get erased

 

Now, "Jake."

 

* Turned to Chaos

* Got erased from all records

 

Does this sound right to anyone?

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

As I said, I'm not against the general idea ... but you're gonna have to do much better to get it anywhere near believeable, let alone acceptable.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

* Alpharius: "It has long been supposed that since Alpharius was only familiar with one other Primarch, Horus, it was self-explanatory why he chose the side he did at the outset of the Heresy. Indeed, the very plan at Isstvan V where Horus struck his first blow against his fellow Legions by destroying most of the Iron Hands, Raven Guard and Salamanders Legions in a massive ambush, was very reminiscent of plans that Alpharius had created in the past."

 

I'll just comment that this is an Imperial viewpoint that is devoid of the information contained in the Alpha Legion's book of the Heresy series, Legion.

 

Other than that, I'm right on board with this being rather unworkable as is.

[Ecritter]

That was the longest, most indept, feedback I've given in a long time and all I get is a "this is an Imperial viewpoint that is devoid of the information contained in the Alpha Legion's book of the Heresy series, Legion." :)

 

Just kidding of course.

 

Actually the most difficult thing you're going to have to overcome is the last part. The reason for the Primarch and his Legion being completely erased from the records. It has to be something that far outstretches the sins of Horus and the other fallen Primarchs. I can only think of one reason, and I'm writing a story about it now.

[HarasinCreed]

OK thanks for all the feedback. Looks like i am going to be re writing. I will drop the whole second legion thing. But i still like the Dragon demon prince thing.

[BloodWulf]

You could drop the 2nd legion thing if you want but that seemed to be the least of the issues with your write up.

 

I think most folks could find it some what reasonable that a smalll element of loyal Emperor's Children were away from the main body when the rest went Traitor. Now what are those fellows to do, perhaps after some serious testing of whatever by the powers that be these guys are found to be free of taint and good to go.

 

They get enough material from the bosses to go (far away) and start a new chapter to defend Segmentum X against Enemy Y. (Maybe even with the hope that they die, just incase they are traitors)

 

I know this seems to be way out there but it would make a heck of a lot mor esense than the Emperor coming across a Demon Prince/21st Primarch and letting him live.

[Ecritter]

BloodWulf I think you're a bit lost on this one. There are only 18 known Primarchs. The Emperor's Children were not listed as Legion II. Two Primarchs and thier Legions have been erased from Imperial history completely. This is the Legion HarasinCreed was attempting to write about.

[HarasinCreed]

Attempting oooh harsh.

 

Just jokes.

I do actually like the idea of using EC though because my other army is a pre-heresy EC so if i made a post heresy version it would be quite cool i think. And as to spelling Samurai i am sorry for all the incorrect ones.

[Ecritter]

Meant nothing by it really. Just used attempting cause it was an early work.

[Aegnor]

Actually the most difficult thing you're going to have to overcome is the last part. The reason for the Primarch and his Legion being completely erased from the records. It has to be something that far outstretches the sins of Horus and the other fallen Primarchs. I can only think of one reason, and I'm writing a story about it now.

 

Actually I quite disagree with this assumption - was going to pull you up on it before but didnt want to derail the thread, but given the OP has flagged they're pausing to do a big rewrite, i'll chime in.

 

To my mind, it isn't at all clear that what the lost legions did was worse that the known traitor legions. First, we need to be honest that those legions actually existing in the official fluff as actual legions is a retcon from their original purpose of being intentional blank slates for people to invent their own fluff. If we set that aside, in-universe there are two reasons why the Emperor might order all records of a legion be destroyed and it's name etc forgotten. 1) he has some cool secret purpose for them that requires that kind of secrecy, or 2) they did something really bad. From the hints we've got in the HH series to date, I think it's clear that, so far as the Primarchs know, it's option 2.

 

So what did they do? And was it worse than the Traitor legions. The argument that it was worse is that the records of the identities and deeds of the traitor legions haven't been deleted, where as the two lost legions have been. To make this argument, you have to assume that the seriousness of the offense is the sole criteria for deletion vs "just" being declared traitor excommunicate. I think there's two other equally important criteria - the ability to cover up whatever happened and the desire to do so.

 

Let's assume for the moment that both lost legions maybe fell to the worship of Chaos and definitely violently rebelled against the Emperor's rule, and did so early in the GC. If they did so, based on what we've seen in the HH series to date, both were put down quite quickly and only rumours exist as to what actually happened. If their rebellions were crushed swiftly and without their actions being visible to the majority of the Imperium AND the imperial forces, then it's quite easy for the Emperor to swear those involved in putting down the rebellion to secrecy and have all reference to the traitors removed - there's won't be too many loose ends to explain away. It's possible to suppress the knowledge.

 

Now let's look at having the desire to do so. Prior to the outbreak of the Heresy, the Emperor's position on the existence of Chaos was clear - suppress all knowledge of it as much as possible, and where you do have to tell people about it, conceal the full nature of what it is (ie Horus' explanation to Loken in Horus Rising - daemons are just aggressive xenos who live in the warp). This policy was only changed to one of letting those with a need to know cultivate knowledge of it so as to seek it out and destroy it's incursions in the events at the end if Flight of the Eisenstein - the implied creation of the Inquisition. I think it really only changed significantly with the ascension of the Emperor to the Golden Throne. So, prior to the Heresy, if the lost legions fell to chaos, the Emperor had a desire to cover it up.

 

So why didn't they do the same for those involved in the Heresy then? My view is that the Heresy was simply too big, too widespread, and created too many lasting marks on the Imperium for it to be possible for the Imperium to suppress the knowledge of it. The rebels were defeated, but not annihilated, so some knowledge of them needed to be maintained to permit a proper defense against them. There were too many worlds devastated, not least Terra itself, for the events to be concealed. Purging all those with knowledge of it would have proven impossible without fatally wounding an already badly reeling Imperium. And I think the Heresy forced a re-evaluation of the policy of completely suppressing knowledge of Chaos. Obviously the knowledge is still tightly controlled, but you see agencies like the Inquisition and Grey Knights set up, the Eccliesarchy start preaching that the Emperor is a God protecting humanity from evil. So it was neither possible, or even necessarily desired to completely suppress the knowledge of the Heresy. Rather, the villains of the Heresy were made anathema and became cautionary tales.

 

Honestly, I can't really imagine what the two lost legions did that could be considered worse than what Horus did - he virtually killed the Emperor and murdered trillions. I think it's what Dorn said, he had thought the Lost alegions were freak, isolated aberrations, but now wondered if they had been unheeded warnings.

[Ecritter]

Aegnor, that was a very well thought out response and has made me reconsider much of what I wrote. If well written, I think this might actually have a chance of working. Thanks for making me see things I'd never considered before.

 

See, thats the beauty of having an intelligent community like B&C to help out. Kudos.

[Aegnor]

If what I've put forward is right though, it implies that the two lost legions were utterly eradicated, so I don't think the Jade Dragons in their current form could work.

[Ecritter]

If what I've put forward is right though, it implies that the two lost legions were utterly eradicated, so I don't think the Jade Dragons in their current form could work.

 

I don't know. Lets say that Primarch "Jake" was touched by Chaos before the Emperor arrived. Not yet a Daemon Prince, or even a Daemon simply a pawn of Chaos at that time. Then soon after recieving his Legion, he jumped the gun and tried to rebel. Facing the Emperor, 18 Loyal Primarchs, and 18 Loyal Legions the rebellion would have been easily put down. Perhaps, instead of being completely eradicated a mere few thousand remained and were driven back into the Warp. Now Daemon Prince "Jake" and his few thousand could pose no real threat militarily, but acting in the background they could have played a major role in working towards the Horus Heresy and the real goals of the Chaos Gods.

 

I know its a stretch, but it could work.

[HarasinCreed]

Ok thanks for all the ideas. Let me run this idea past u guys and see what u think.

 

Ok how about "Jake" is becoming a pawn of Chaos/Prince whatever unknown to him so he joins the Emperor and its all happy but slowly Jake gets more and more currupted. At this time he is traviling with the other lost legion and in one fell swoop sacrifices the intire legion to appease the Chaos gods and flees into the warp to escape judgement. THe emperor removes all evedence of them because he does not want to show how powerful Chaos is or really reveal what it is at this point. This is why both legions records have been erased because if the sacrificed legion was remembered so would the "Jade Emperors"

 

Very ruff but would that be kind of plorsable for u guys.

Also contemplating changing chapter name

 

Thanks

Edmund

[Ecritter]

Doable, only one problem though. If both Legions are completed eradicated .... theres nothing left for you to write an IT about.

[Octavulg]

And we've never heard of them since because...?

[HarasinCreed]

Both are not destroyed only the 11th legion is the second runs into the warp.

As to why we have not heard of them its because....well because... they have been busy battling the 13th Space wolves company HA. No but seriously i have not got that far

[Ecritter]

You could have only a small number of survivors that avoid direct combat with forces of the Imperium but work behind the scenes to reach the goals of the Chaos Gods. They have no organizational badges, and if ever seen it is in small numbers with a much larger force of other fallen Legions.

[BloodWulf]

BloodWulf I think you're a bit lost on this one. There are only 18 known Primarchs. The Emperor's Children were not listed as Legion II. Two Primarchs and thier Legions have been erased from Imperial history completely. This is the Legion HarasinCreed was attempting to write about.

 

 

Guess so, I though he was attempting to create an all new Primarch, ie a 21st, and somehow tie him in to another Legion. I do know that the EC are not legion 2, not sure how I managed to ellude to that.

 

At any rate, Harasin, keep chipping away and you will come out with something you like. keep at it.