Shadowstalker Grim Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 In the codex it states in the entry for scouts: Any model may replace their boltgun with a shotgun, combat blade or sniper rifle. Does this mean that a 10 man scout squad could have a variety of weapons, perhaps for combat squadding with (like 5 snipers, 5 CC) I mean its nothing that can really be abused, its not exactly practical to take 10 men, 3 snipers, 1 heavy, 1 sarge, 2 boltguns, 1 shotgun and 2 combat blades just because you can. But it seems that from the entry you could make them this diverse. Its never really seen, people only take 5 man squads of one type of thing, why not take larger squads to combat squad using a 50/50 split? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysticaria Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 yep... You are correct. I used to take shotgun scouts with bolter scouts so half could ride a storm and half could walk. Only thing is you won't have a sergeant and get less access to special weapons. Also you have a liability in kill points games. It can be done, but unless you are really right on FOC slots there is usually a better option. -Myst Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phlegon Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 I had noticed this too and one possibility I saw in large games was the ability to take 4 Tac sqds (I love these guys) and then two ten man sniper / HtH squads and combat squading them so that I have a total of 8 troops choices. The HtH section would range ahead with two tactical squads a piece in LSS. Add Kantor to this with some sternguard and objectives should not be an issue in objective games. In fact now that I have said that I think I might run a list of this make up just for fun. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 Why take two mixed sniper and combat squads when you can take one sniper squad and one combat squad and still combat squad them if needed, and not be forced to do so in kill point missions? I've noticed that as well, and I believe the most practically application is in 10 man close combat squads. Basically take 4 guys with combat weapons and 5 with shotguns (or the other way around) and your Sergeant. The shotguns give you some more shooting as you charge into combat, and once you're in there you can start taking those shotguns off as they start dying, letting your extra attack bearing combat Scouts stick around a while longer. And you can still combat squad and have a combat squad and a shotgun squad, especially handy if you run a Storm. I do feel, however, that there is a fundamental flaw with combat squadding, and that is kill point missions. If you've equipped your squad so that they are most effective when combat squadded, what are you going to do about kill points? If you combat squad them to retain effectiveness then you're giving your opponent more potential kill points, and easier ones as well. But if you don't combat squad then you're stuck with squads that are confused and aren't doing their job as they should be doing. IMO, if you plan on combat squadding, you need to plan for both scenarios. Unfortunately, Scouts don't do this as well as Marines as they're too specialized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatuous Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 I mix mine CC scouts in the mix about, with shot guns and CC blades in the same unit. It works really well. I have considered the snipers mixed with a CC element as well. As yet I have not tried it, but I can see it working ok....... mainly because sniper scouts aren't all that great anyway........... going from 5 snipers to 10 (I'm ignoring the sarge and heavy weapons as I'll come to that soon) will give u an extra wound or 2 per shooting phase, maximum (2.5 hit, 1.25 extra wounds). I know mathammer doesnt always play out, and it is possible you're missing out on 5 rending hits, but it is VERY unlikely. It is nice to give the sarge the sniper rifle too for more accurate hits, but he is better in CC anyway. So taking 4 snipers, 1 Heavy weapon, 1 sarge tooled for close combat (either pistol and P weapon, or shot gun and power fist, I'd prob go with cheap for this sort of unit), and 2 CC blades and 2 shot guns. At range (up to 36") you have the same basic fire power as a 5 man sniper unit (ok, 1 rifle will hit less as the sarge doesn't have it), but 4 sniper rifles and a heavy weapon. As shots come in, depending on how the battle is going, u either loose no snipers and keep firing, or if they are starting to get close, loose a sniper. If your opponent gets to with in 12", everyone moves out, they all have pistols or shot guns, so a fair amount of fire on the way in, and the snipers are no worse than a shot gunner once ur in CC anyway, with the sarge tooled up for CC. I haven't tried it, and perhaps it is a terrible idea (in a game over the weekend I considered this set up, and decided against it in the end tbh). You can CS if you want to, with fire base and CC element. In KP games, u can combine, and they'll work with a little less effectiveness than 10 snipers, but the loss there seems minimal to me. Over all, this sort of unit looses out on the sarges, etc.... and the saving is only 10 points, so not much, but if that kill point is important, this could work. I think I will try it some time and see how it works. It will give the snipers some CC support if any one gets too close, and teh CC element, some long ranged support. The main real drawbacks I can see, are that cloaks etc, would ahve to go on the entire unit, and CSing would reduce the abilities to go in storms to outflank etc........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagicMan Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 You can't give the sarge a sniper rifle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 You can't give the sarge a sniper rifle. this is incorrect, the upgrade options for scout weapons state "any model", if it said "any scout" youd be correct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagicMan Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Ah fair, i thought since the Sergeant had a separate upgrade list he could only choose things from that list. Won't have to convert my ''built for the last codex'' scouts at any rate. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Valerius Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 You can't give the sarge a sniper rifle. this is incorrect, the upgrade options for scout weapons state "any model", if it said "any scout" youd be correct Wouldn't that fall under the same argument as "scout sergeants can't ride in a LSS", and be subject to the same counter-arguments? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 You can't give the sarge a sniper rifle. this is incorrect, the upgrade options for scout weapons state "any model", if it said "any scout" youd be correct Wouldn't that fall under the same argument as "scout sergeants can't ride in a LSS", and be subject to the same counter-arguments? i dont know anyone who would make that argument tbh, its clear that a scout sergeant is conceptually different to a scout when dealing with upgrade selection, but in terms of a squad, they are all scouts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowstalker Grim Posted March 17, 2011 Author Share Posted March 17, 2011 It would make no sense if the sarge couldn't take a sniper rifle, or ride in a LSS. You can see it now: Sarge: Ok brothers, we'll ride straight into the heart of battle on the LSS, destroy the support elements and leave our brothers unmolested to move through enemy lines! Requisition master: Nope, only scouts can ride, don't want to risk the seargent falling out now! You'll have to walk i'm afraid seargent, I suggest fairly fast too! Sarge: Very well, arm yourselves with sniper rifles and we'll lay down suppressing fire! Requisition master: Nope, sorry as seargent you cannot arm yourself with any of these weapons anymore, but feel free to use this lovely bolter! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagicMan Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Yeah it had been pissing me off when i'd gotten the new SM Dex, since i kept having to say ''This scout sergeant actually has a bolter... Even though i don't want it.'' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pingo Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 You can't give the sarge a sniper rifle. this is incorrect, the upgrade options for scout weapons state "any model", if it said "any scout" youd be correct Wouldn't that fall under the same argument as "scout sergeants can't ride in a LSS", and be subject to the same counter-arguments? No, because 'any model' includes the sergeant and 'any scout' would not. I don't remember the wording of the LSS entry, but I really hope no one seriously tries to argue that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Valerius Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 You can't give the sarge a sniper rifle. this is incorrect, the upgrade options for scout weapons state "any model", if it said "any scout" youd be correct Wouldn't that fall under the same argument as "scout sergeants can't ride in a LSS", and be subject to the same counter-arguments? No, because 'any model' includes the sergeant and 'any scout' would not. I don't remember the wording of the LSS entry, but I really hope no one seriously tries to argue that point. I've definitely seen the argument raised in rules discussions with respect to the LSS. I think it's silly as heck, but there you have it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I've definitely seen the argument raised in rules discussions with respect to the LSS. I think it's silly as heck, but there you have it. its one of those rules that may have some RAW 'looseness' to it, but its plainly obvious what its meant for (especially since the sergeant is modelled on the damned thing), but if anyone tried to argue it in a tournament i seriously doubt it will come to anything, and who wants to get a bad sportsman mark? moreover if someone tried this in a friendly setting id seriously sit them down and explain the meaning of the terms 'asshat', 'douchebag' and 'ruleslawyer' im sure you get the point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Valerius Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I agree, GC08, I'm just saying that there are those who are willing to stoop so low. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowstalker Grim Posted March 17, 2011 Author Share Posted March 17, 2011 Thing is, whats the point in arguing it? I mean a sarge is good and all, but hes hardly going to give an enemy a hard time like a special character could.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Thing is, whats the point in arguing it? I mean a sarge is good and all, but hes hardly going to give an enemy a hard time like a special character could.... hmm, its not really that simple. The sergeant really is the beating heart of the land speeder storm assault, he carries the meltabombs, combi-weapons and/or PW/PF.. the other scouts are merely the walking bodybags, ready to die to ensue he gets the job done I agree, GC08, I'm just saying that there are those who are willing to stoop so low. :( yeah its very sad.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H4L Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 LSS It states only scouts can board it. I only bring this up because it is a show case of the inconsistencies that are in the book. It doesn't specify the scout squad, units with the scout ability (LSS in a LSS!), or a unit called "scouts". While in this case it seems obvios that the seargent can climb in and be armed with a sniper rifle, there seems to be cases where similar wording is obviosly the opposite of this. Love the dex and I am not trying to say its easy, but it has a few grammatical errors and inconsistencies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Love the dex and I am not trying to say its easy, but it has a few grammatical errors and inconsistencies you have to remember that its written by gamers and not legal buffs and english docterates.. personally im ok with a lot of the errors, becuase as this case shows there is a painfully obvious answer, there are however several occasions that create true confusion and those are the ones we need to clear up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatuous Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 TBH while this is a grey area in whether scout sarge bikers can have the nade launchers (as an example, not wanting to discuss that any further;) I really do not see any president in the codex that would not allow scout sargents to have rifles, or allow them in LSSs. The scout squad upgrades entries clearly states any model. It also clearly states you can add scouts to the unit, not scout sargents. Reg LSSs. Ok, it does not say scout squads may travel in it, but it does clearly states it has a transport for scouts. Scout squads are an entry in the troop section. There is no president to assume this does not include the sarge, as if it didn't, no scouts could do in a LSS full stop, as the entire unit has to embark or none. In fact the only way this could work is if u CS a 10 man unit, and then you can't outflank with it. Anyone arguing these cases is clearly mentally challenged tbh, or just being a azzhat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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