BassWave Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 Whose bashing them? Haven't critisised them once (apart from calling them liars indirectly). Primarchs are the fathers and role models of their chapters, what every marine aspires to. Claiming that Alpharius/Omegon are not primarchs is like telling a child they're adopted :o Don't get me wrong, its an interesting theory and if anyone could pull it off it would be Alpharius/Omegon, but the big hole in the theory is that you simply cannot trick the Emperor that you are a primarch. Tricking anyone less than the Emperor maybe... But thats the fun with Alpha Legion, nobody knows whats going on with them... well ok maybe Tzeentch but thats about it :P Btw, my first comment wasn't meant to be inflammatory or anything. I just found the irony of a member of Alpha Legion's greatest rival too tasty to keep to my self :P No harm meant Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222656-alpharius-and-omegon-not-primarchs/page/2/#findComment-2663911 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted February 18, 2011 Author Share Posted February 18, 2011 That's cool, just didn't want this thread to go down the path of Ultras war so wanted to be firm to stamp it out :P Anyway, yeah the Emperor is a massive obstacle to overcome for this theory to ever be sound. Have to be major changes if The Emperor never met Alpharius etc. Of course, John Gramaticus was only "revealed" to the Emperor after shaking hands (at least so it seemed), so maybe it's not impossible Alpharius could be an imposter without him knowing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222656-alpharius-and-omegon-not-primarchs/page/2/#findComment-2664024 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferrata Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 It's been a while since I read Legion, is there a quote which describes the size disparity here? Only from John's point of view, and he was gifted when it came between telling people apart. When he asked Soneka (sp?) if he could tell the difference between the marines in front of him, he said no. To humans, most Astartes look alike unless for really obvious differences. Whilst the more muscular Primarchs might find it difficult to hide, especially with the additional might of armour they wear (with all the tassles) I don't think it is too far to say Alpha/Omegon could. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222656-alpharius-and-omegon-not-primarchs/page/2/#findComment-2664056 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candleshoes Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 ...a single, swiftly made post whilst I was busy... I was merely pointing out your "theory" seems a lot like this, and you lack the evidence to support it, even marginally. Speculation of this size, without evidence, is tough to look at and respond at with any amount of credibility. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222656-alpharius-and-omegon-not-primarchs/page/2/#findComment-2664075 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted February 18, 2011 Author Share Posted February 18, 2011 Well seeing as speculation was the core point to the thread, the status of it's credibility is built on interpretation of limited reference material and thus likely to change with any further information released and be subject to personal assumption in the abscence of anything more tangible. I am the first to admit this probably isn't a direction GW and the BL will take, whilst the Emperor "problem" is an obstacle impossible to ignore when considering the theories' validity without intervention from an official source. But the theories' credibility has no bearing on my own, as after all I am not dedicating my exisistance to it's promotion or defence. Tell you what though, I think we will all be surprised if this turned out to be the truth, myself just as much as anyone! I'd actually be disappointed, as it would be like a spoiler I created even though I was never privy to the truth! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222656-alpharius-and-omegon-not-primarchs/page/2/#findComment-2664152 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alkana Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 If it was a Space Marine of the Alpha Legion, he didn't seem that skilled to me and the Primarchs abilitie are echoed in their Legion. Eskrador. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222656-alpharius-and-omegon-not-primarchs/page/2/#findComment-2664165 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted February 19, 2011 Author Share Posted February 19, 2011 If it was a Space Marine of the Alpha Legion, he didn't seem that skilled to me and the Primarchs abilitie are echoed in their Legion. Eskrador. ;) Let's not turn this into a debate of the legibility of the only source to speak of that engagement. THAT discussion needs it's own thread as it comsumes a topic in it's intensity! :cuss Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222656-alpharius-and-omegon-not-primarchs/page/2/#findComment-2664470 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 So if what your saying is that AL marine gets hit by human so must be rubbish at fighting... AL marine is rubbish at fighting so Alpharius must be rubbish at fighting hmmm ok... How about this... UM successor turns traitor... So RG must be a traitor himself because after all he is only a mini me of his primarch.... and we don't even need to make the assumption that the marine is a traitor while you are assuming the AL is rubbish. This is the AL is superior to the UM... you guys only see what the AL wants you to see... smokes and mirrors wooooo *ghost noises*! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222656-alpharius-and-omegon-not-primarchs/page/2/#findComment-2664474 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted February 19, 2011 Author Share Posted February 19, 2011 I was only being tongue in cheek. No, I'm saying the Alpha Legionaires aren't particularly noted for being fierce and mighty. Of course, as Astartes, Alpha Legion are pretty tough. And do we really need to bring Ultramarines into this just because I collect them? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222656-alpharius-and-omegon-not-primarchs/page/2/#findComment-2664480 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visitor13 Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 No, I'm saying the Alpha Legionaires aren't particularly noted for being fierce and mighty. Unfortunately the AL isn't noted for anything in particular, other than their vague sneakiness. The whole legion could somehow be a primarch for all we know. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222656-alpharius-and-omegon-not-primarchs/page/2/#findComment-2664487 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candleshoes Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 No, I'm saying the Alpha Legionaires aren't particularly noted for being fierce and mighty. "The Alpha Legion respected strength and despised the weak... The Legion has great pride in its prowess and welcomed opportunities to demonstrate their superior skills against loyalist Space Marine Chapters. They have been known to hold back some of their forces to test themselves more thoroughly..." --- Pg 40 3.5 ed Codex: Chaos Space Marines Pre-Heresy - "... Alpha Legion clashed with and even fought against members of other Legions in existence at that time."--- Pg 32 3rd ed Codex: Chaos Space Marines "... Alpharius' forces started to go out of their way to find Space Marine opponents and inflicted stinging defeats on loyalist White Scars at Tallarn, a Space Wolves company at Yarant, and other Legions at dozens of smaller outposts." --- WD276 pg 57, IA The Enemy Within As for the possibility of Ultramarines on Eskrador, who potentially fought with their Primarch: "... it seems hard to dispute the fact that the Ultramarines were soundly beaten by the Alpha Legion..." --- WD276 pg 59, IA The Enemy Within Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222656-alpharius-and-omegon-not-primarchs/page/2/#findComment-2664539 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted February 19, 2011 Author Share Posted February 19, 2011 Not a single one of those quotes confirms the Alpha Legion are fierce or mighty. It implies they are really good at what they do and enjoy testing themselves such. Seriously guys, let it go! It doesn't have anything to do with the thread whether they are known as mighty warriors aside from how large Alpharius is, and that has been established by us that it is inconclusive. Besides, quoting from the IA: Alpha Legion article proves nothing, remember? The whole "information from a comprimised source" thing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222656-alpharius-and-omegon-not-primarchs/page/2/#findComment-2664629 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alkana Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 And do we really need to bring Ultramarines into this just because I collect them? I just think Eskrador is a good example of what the legion is capable of. The legion doesn't need to be mighty. They leave that to the Space Wolves or the World Eaters or any of the other legions. They don't prove their worth with flashy displays of awesomeness, they just scheme and strike. They do their job. They're still Astartes, so they're still tougher than most other forces, and they don't need to be over the top in order to be considered mighty. If you don't count IA: AL then you're throwing out a lot of the information we have about them. It may have been from a compromised source, but that doesn't mean it's false. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222656-alpharius-and-omegon-not-primarchs/page/2/#findComment-2664862 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candleshoes Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 It implies they are really good at what they do... Killing their equals, those "fierce and mighty" astartes you talk about. Killing their own kind well before the Heresy, to know how best to achieve victory. Preventing the strength of 3 Legions from reaching Terra in time. According to all information we have, they never lost a battle to the Imperium during the Heresy, and planned the death of the Iron Hands, Salamanders, and Raven Guard. Make sure you pre-define fierce and mighty, rather than make it mean whatever you feel like. Space Wolves are stereotypically fierce and mighty, but they died all the same on Tallarn at the hands of the Alpha Legion, much the same as the Imperial Fists to the Iron Warriors on the Iron Cage. Just because the Legion was founded 20 years before the Heresy, doesn't diminish their lethality, might against equals, their fierceness in ensuring victory, let alone their contributions to the Heresy as a whole, the scale and their part in it. Besides, quoting from the IA: Alpha Legion article proves nothing, remember? The whole "information from a comprimised source" thing. Since your entire theory is based on information in the IA article, and as you state here, this is your opinion when dealing with others in this thread, there is no reason for this discussion to continue on the possible credibility of your topic, as nothing anyone can contribute can be constructive. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222656-alpharius-and-omegon-not-primarchs/page/2/#findComment-2665355 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Talking about the traits of the Alpha Legion is not that simple, as the Alpha Legion of the 2nd and 3rd Edition was very diffeent fro the Alpha Legion of the Index Astartes article, which in turn was very different from the Horus Heresy novel Alpha Legion. So refering to both, traits and actions described in earlier sources, and traits and actions described in the Index Astartes or the novel, may be questionable. In 2nd Edition, the Alpha Legion was "renowned for its discipline and strict organisation" (2nd Ed. C:Chaos, p. 14), and on the battlefield they were feared for their terrifying coordination and relentless attacks to find weak points in the enemies' defenses. Their downfall was their extreme martial pride, allways competing with other Legions, and they jumped at the opportunity to directly fight against the loyalists when Horus offered them the chance. Their only claim to secrecy was that they were said to have hidden outposts all throughout the Imperium, and that they supported Chaos Cults. In 3rd Edition there was not much new information, but the Alpha Legion was said to have clashed with loyalist Legions even before the Heresy. There was said to be an especially strong mutual hatred between the Alpha Legion and the Imperial Fists. martial pride and secret bases are still mentioned in their brief description. (3rd Ed. C:CSM, p. 32) In the Index Astartes, the background is altered a bit. It was still their martial pride that was responsible for their downfall, but they were now said to use long term infiltration and disorientation tactics for the first time. Gone is the "strict organisation" of the past. Instead of the Imperial Fists, the Index Astartes describes a feud with the Ultramarines. (3rd Ed. Index Astartes Alpha Legion) In the novel "Legion" (which I have not read), apparently the entire "martial pride" plot is dropped entirely. Their motivation for turning traitor is now an entirely different one, and is even put into question. Instead of being angry at Guilliman, as in the Index Astartes, apparently Alpharius now "simply ignores him". If ever there was a novel that pulled a 180 on the established canon, it is this one. I am curious how much of it the next Codex Chaos Space Marines will adopt. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222656-alpharius-and-omegon-not-primarchs/page/2/#findComment-2665487 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted February 20, 2011 Author Share Posted February 20, 2011 Wow, I never realised people will be so offended by a theory such as this one. You'd have thought I told people their lifestyle choice was questionable... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222656-alpharius-and-omegon-not-primarchs/page/2/#findComment-2665733 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 I thought Alpharius wasn't particularly credible in Legion, intentionally on Abnett's part, when saying he didn't care what Guilliman thought of him. I think it was certainly moved to a less prominent motivation, but I think Guilliman's scorn still annoyed the Alphas, and they would have taken pleasure in achieving their deeper goals by targeting the Ultras. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222656-alpharius-and-omegon-not-primarchs/page/2/#findComment-2665898 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chowda Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 In one of the HH books during one of them converging visions of the primarchs being incubated, they mentioned twins in in one of the vats. Just thought I'd throw that out there if it hadn't been brought up yet. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222656-alpharius-and-omegon-not-primarchs/page/2/#findComment-2666113 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razhbad Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 I am still pretty sure that the Alpha Legion do have credible fighters and warriors. Now they may not be as good as say World Eaters, Space Wolves or Blood Angels in close combat but they are still Astartes. When it comes to the events at the end of Legion, everytime i read that part it always looks like that the Lucifer Black was allowed to get a hit, also Lucifer blacks are good warriors and if an Evesor can chop through Astartes why not a good warrior who is allowed to get a hit. The other fighint example is when Alpharius/Omegon takes on Guilleman and dies, now Guilleman may have just been that much better remember he is a Primarch as well, plus i do not think that Guilleman only battled an Astartes who looked like his brother, i think a Primarch would know the difference. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222656-alpharius-and-omegon-not-primarchs/page/2/#findComment-2666368 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted February 21, 2011 Author Share Posted February 21, 2011 Forgetting all opposition to the Index Astartes article which sources the battle between the Primarchs, instead accepting it as truth, for Guilliman not to recognise he was fighting an Astartes and not his Brother that would make his Brother indeed very close in aspect to an Astartes and therefore smaller than usual. However, it also describes how Alpharius tore through squads of Ultramarines, which a simple Astartes couldn't do even if large. This means it must have been a Primarch, or else some sort of daemon possessed Astartes or worse. But since the Ultramarines dispute the veracity of the account and they are known for being honest, whilst the Alpha Legion are known for being deceitful and use agents to spread their misinformation, and Kravin refused to submit his source for assessment even before he was declared a heretic, I think we should be extremely wary about believing the account at all... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222656-alpharius-and-omegon-not-primarchs/page/2/#findComment-2666446 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razhbad Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 A valid point we may have to wait for a book to cover this. But whether it will be done in the HH series or a time of scouring book who knows Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222656-alpharius-and-omegon-not-primarchs/page/2/#findComment-2666501 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted February 21, 2011 Author Share Posted February 21, 2011 I hope they do make a novel regarding the battle. Likely it would show the account as false and true at the same time, in true Alpha Legion fashion! :teehee: Even if one side loses, it would be because of something overwhelmingly against them (i.e. not their fault!). I don't care I just want to read about it! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222656-alpharius-and-omegon-not-primarchs/page/2/#findComment-2666506 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GooseDaMoose Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 I definitely believe that Guiliman would be able to defeat Alpharius in one on one combat. It's not unheard of that certain Primarchs kick other Primarchs' butts in various ways. Vulkan could out-smith Dorn anyday, and Corax very clearly owned Lorgar. Alpharius has never put much emphasis on CC or glorious fighting etc etc so it's totally possible that Guiliman, who was all into righteous slaying and mighty smiting, could best him. Still though, Alpharius and Omegon were the Primarch. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222656-alpharius-and-omegon-not-primarchs/page/2/#findComment-2666547 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shatter Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Forgetting all opposition to the Index Astartes article which sources the battle between the Primarchs, instead accepting it as truth, for Guilliman not to recognise he was fighting an Astartes and not his Brother that would make his Brother indeed very close in aspect to an Astartes and therefore smaller than usual. However, it also describes how Alpharius tore through squads of Ultramarines, which a simple Astartes couldn't do even if large. This means it must have been a Primarch, or else some sort of daemon possessed Astartes or worse. But since the Ultramarines dispute the veracity of the account and they are known for being honest, whilst the Alpha Legion are known for being deceitful and use agents to spread their misinformation, and Kravin refused to submit his source for assessment even before he was declared a heretic, I think we should be extremely wary about believing the account at all... I don't think that's a given at all. Not all astartes are created equal. Just like men. Denying that a single astartes could plow through a bunch of fellow astartes is like saying Kimbo Slice couldn't plow through a bunch of brawlers at the local. They're all equally human after all. Aren't they? And I assure you, Kimbo in his prime would do it. If the 'marine' in question was prepared with hidden and specialized technology specifically for the task of impersonating a primarch's prowess, this would be easy peasy. And it appears that such a thing is a part of their 'modern' tactics book. Like men, some Astartes are simply much bigger and better than their fellows. Until more 'modern' historical cannon is written for these moments, we know nothing for sure... which still means, as far as I'm concerned, that while A & O exist, there may indeed be false copies of them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222656-alpharius-and-omegon-not-primarchs/page/2/#findComment-2668777 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razhbad Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 The question i really want to know is what is Alpharius/Omegon doing now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222656-alpharius-and-omegon-not-primarchs/page/2/#findComment-2668803 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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