How do I fight Necrons and Eldar?

[Captain Denaro]

I have to build a 1500 point list to fight a Necron and Eldar army this month in my local gaming league. I've come to love my Fast Attack list led by Kor'sarro Khan on Moondrakken supported by Landspeeders (3 or 4), a 10 man bike squad (Troop choice), a Destructor Predator and my ubiquitious Vindicator.

 

However, as the Eldar are a specialist Fast Attack army, is it advisable for me to try and fight them at their own game? Also I don't know too much about Necrons, other than to take plenty of Instant Death weapons to eliminate regeneration and only to attack Necron models in an effort to Phase Out.

 

Under these circumstances would I be better to put out a more balanced list, possibly with more Tactical squads and my Sternguards perhaps with Kantor? Any advice would be great.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

I should think that bikes would work well against necrons, melee is often advised against them and bikes will allow you to hit targets nicely and wipe them out at your leisure. Whilst eldar may be faster, your speed should still help you avoid their attempts to divide and conquer you or deliver their units where they'll be most effective. I think it'll come down to your wargear choices overall that matter.

 

What kind of list would you run? Perhaps give an example of your biker list and your ideas for a more balanced one?

[thade]

Both of your opponents field difficult to play armies. Eldar win on turn 5, otherwise they lose, maybe draw; they are a finesse army. Their codex is a bit dated but still very viable in capable hands. Necrons are even more dated and even in the hands of a savy opponent they may buckle to modern armies.

 

That said, underestimate neither of them. :P

 

Eldar are fast and comprised almost entirely of specialist troops. Each unit is totally broken in one aspect of gameplay (eg Fire Dragons are land raider eaters, Harlies are very hard to kil, Dire Avengers are melee tarpits, Banshees are melee killers, etc). If you spread out, they will be able to target your separated units with their ultimate counters. It's rough. Stick close together vs Eldar so your units can support one another.

 

You're spot on with Necrons. Ignore the monoliths and target Warriors and Destroyers. Force a phase out. It's the easiest way to get a monolith off of an objective. <3

[Captain Denaro]

What I'm thinking of is roughly as follows;

 

HQ:

Khan & foot slogger Librarian

 

TROOPS:

Tactical squad x 10 with multi-melta and plasma gun (combat squaded with a Razorback)

Scout squad x 10 with heavy bolter

8 x bikes & multi-melta Attack bike armed with power sword, plasma gun and melta gun

 

FAST ATTACK:

3 Landspeeder - 1 x Typhoon, 1 x hvy bolter/Assault cannon, 1 x Hvy flamer/multi-melta

 

SUPPORT:

Predator with Autocannon and hvy bolters

Vindicator

 

That's my Fast Attack list. The idea would be to target the Necrons relative lack of mobility by outflanking and picking them off. Not too sure how it would work against the Eldar but i suppose essentially the same principles would apply by not giving them a focussed point of attack.

 

The alternative would be something like;

 

HQ:

Captain

 

TROOPS:

2 x Tactical squads (probably armed MM/PG & ML/F) in Rhinos

1 x CC Scout squad

 

ELITE:

Sternguard x 5 tooled up with combi-weapons and 1 or 2 plasma guns in a Razorback

 

FAST ATTACK:

Bike squad x 5 with plasma gun

2 x Landspeeders

 

SUPPORT:

Predator with 3 x Las cannon

 

This list would still be quite mobile but would lack the outflank ability conferred by Khan. Any advice would be great.

[thade]

Spreading out is playing into Eldar hands; be veerry careful doing so. I recommend against it, honestly.

 

Why is the librarian on foot? Is he going to GoI everywhere?

[falldown]

Hi Denaro,

 

As a Necron player I will give some feedback on your lists.

If the cron player goes first, you can kiss your speeders goodbye. Also they do not have a good use vs Crons. We have no light vehicles and all of our Necron units should be within range of a Rez Orb, which will limit their effectiveness. Your bikes can do a good bit of damage, but they need to get to the Crons first. With the first list, you need to go all out and get into cc asap. Also if your Cron opponent has a good number of destroyers or a squad of wraiths, your bikes are going to get pasted right quick.

 

A lot will depend on how good your opponent is.

[TyrionTheImp]

I play against Eldar on a weekly basis, and it's hard to really say without looking at a list what to do, but they shouldn't be too difficult.

 

Most Eldar armies have one thing in common: They are hard to kill. With psyker powers they can get re-rolling saves, good invuln saves, good armor saves, Wave Serpents are difficult to kill, and Falcons are extremely difficult to kill. However, for the most part, they don't have that big of a bite. Eldar win kill points by not giving any up, and objectives by taking them at the last minute.

 

Best way to win against them is to concentrate fire on a single unit with everything so it dies, if you're running a bike army that shouldn't be too difficult, and spreading out definitely is a bad idea because they can outrun you and focus fire to wipe you out piece meal probably better than you can.

 

Necrons have a really old codex, I wouldn't sweat too much about them. Don't shoot the monoliths, shoot the necron warriors, close combat can help as forcing No Retreat! Wounds can wear them down, but their codex is really weak right now.

[falldown]

The vast majority of Necrons are not fearless. The only units that are (off the top of my head) are scarabs, tomb spyders, and maybe pariahs. Everything else will run like they are being chased by a sharky sharky. If they fail leadership that is and at Ld10 for every unit, that isn't easy. If they don't run, the unit makes its WBB rolls and is ported out of CC by the monolith (if the Cron player has one). Then the Crons retake any WBB they failed and your assault team is left sitting in the open like a bunch of chumps.

[Captain Denaro]

The Librarian is on foot for no other eason than that I have nowhere else to put him. I don't have a bike for him, so was planning to put him in the Razorback. Powers will probably be Machine Curse and Vortex to try and slow down the Eldar vehicles and then provide some close range devastation. If they're not needed to be too manouvrable then keep them as a squad of 10 with the libby.

 

Would I be better to leave the Landspeeders at home then? I've been using 3 of them of late with great success since my opponent doesn't seem to know which to hit and ends up leaving them to run riot. The Vindicator will obviously sit back in my deployment area and either hold an objective or control the centre-field (depending on the mission).

 

I'm not sure whether to combat squad the scouts or not, as they don't seem to last too long in small squads. My thought was to have 5 snipers in a 10 man squad with hvy bolter, cc sgt and 3 cc scouts. Idea being to sit back and hit them with the snipers but still have a wee bit of steel should combat come around?

 

Other than that it's a case of playing it by ear. I really have no idea what I'll be up against other than the particular races and I'm not a great one for formulating grand battle plans - no plan lasts beyond the first shot being fired, so they say.

[falldown]

I just don't know that the landspeeders will be super effective. Against Crons that is. If they have some oomph to their shooting, you might keep a couple Crons down. Otherwise you are putting some armor 10 vehicles on the field with the only army in existence that can glance any vehicle with almost any weapon in the codex.

 

If you were going up against me, I would either blast the goo out of them turn 1 or blast the goo out of them once they stopped turbo boosting. Or if you got close to my monolith, I would just try to ram them. As with most things though... Try it out. See how it does, if they kick Necron patootie then keep em in. If they get shot down, it might be a good idea to swap them out.

 

Lists can vary depending on the player. In general you will always see at least two squads of destroyers, and anywhere between two and four squads of 10 warriors, maybe a monolith. If you see heavy destroyers, know that they are juicy targets with limited survivability and underpowered lascannons. If they are not in cover shoot the stuffing out of them.

[Hellios]

I just don't know that the landspeeders will be super effective. Against Crons that is. If they have some oomph to their shooting, you might keep a couple Crons down. Otherwise you are putting some armor 10 vehicles on the field with the only army in existence that can glance any vehicle with almost any weapon in the codex.

 

The standard gauss weapon carried by a warrior is no better against a Land Speeder than a bolter and is inferior against an AV10 vehicle when compared to the pulse rifle of the Tau. The Vindicator/Predator should be more conerned about the gauss weapons.

 

I think that Crons are pretty straight forward (that isn't to say easy) shut down the speed (destroyers) and destroy the big units (warriors then immortals) and try to avoid tarpits & Fire magnets (Scarabs, Wraiths, Monoliths, C'Tan and Scarabs)... oh and don't get in combat with Pariahs if you can avoid it.

 

Eldar are pretty tough and a lot depends on how the player uses them. Farseers are often used as force magnifiers so if they leave them exposed it is a good chance to kill them. If he has a shooty unit try and get it in combat, if it is a choppy unit then shoot it. Auto-cannons and Missile Launchers are good weapons to take out the transports. They key is not to expose yourself so if he has a mobile army you might want to castle up.

[falldown]

Oh it is very true. The warriors should not be shooting the Land Speeders. If I were up against speeders, a squad of my destroyers would be shooting at them. Assuming a squad of 4 (just because) you have 12 str 6 shots. BS4 means ~8 land. 4+ for a glance means ~2-3 pen hits and a glance. That should be enough, and it leaves the warriors to gauss the higher AP vehicles in rapid fire or 24" range.

 

But yeah, your tactics are sound. "I think that Crons are pretty straight forward (that isn't to say easy) shut down the speed (destroyers) and destroy the big units (warriors then immortals) and try to avoid tarpits & Fire magnets (Scarabs, Wraiths, Monoliths, C'Tan and Scarabs)... oh and don't get in combat with Pariahs if you can avoid it."

[Captain Denaro]

If I was to drop the speeders what should I replace them with?

 

In my mind my choices would be another Tactical squad or a jump pack Assault squad as the most likely. Other options would be Sternguard, Vanguard, Termies, las Predator, Dev squad or any other suggestion?

[DarkGuard]

Keep the Speeders, deploy them behind cover or reserve them in case your opponent gets the first turn. Keep them fresh and alive through that first turn so when they come on first turn they'll do the damage. Seriously, with proper cover or putting them in reserve there is no way that those Destroyers should catch them.

 

I would, however, advocate changing the load out of the Speeders in your first list. Change the ass cannon to a Typhoon run them together, and run the melta/flamer separately. Apologies if they are being run separately already, it's just that your format makes them look like they're in a squadron.

 

With my friend having started Eldar, I can say they are difficult to pin down and kill. However, with the right weapons they do die easily. Eldar are one of the few opponents that Rifleman Dreads struggle, but combi-preds and Typhoons can shine against them, especially the latter who can keep up with their transports and still be effective against infantry. Eldar are also one of the few armies where melta isn't a concern. Hardly affects Wave Serpeants, and you'll be lucky to get it in range. Focuse on long-range anti-tank for taking their tanks out, and heavy flamers, assault cannons and that sort of stuff for their infantry.

 

Necrons... Just phase them out. Charge them, drop overwhelming firepower on them etc. If he spreads his army out you've got the mobility to destroy them. One of the more recent opponents effectively spoon fed my army individual Necron Warrior units, allowing me to kill them one at a time with ease. If he'd bunched up I would have found it harder. Necrons are inherently slow (apart from a few units). Take advantage of that and bring the pain where it hurts most with your superior mobility.

[Captain Denaro]

I wasnt sure how to run the speeders, but would have enough slots to run them all individually and to be honest the Assault cannon/Heavy bolter option has probably been my least effective, so I might give it a try.

 

Like your ideas for running the speeders, so will sleep on it and finalise my list in the morning before my first game. Think the Necrons are up first which I've very little experience fighting, and since in my fluff my Chapter was founded in response to the threat from the Necrons I really need to sort that.

[DarkGuard]

Yeah, it's probably about time your soldiers started facing Necrons then :devil:.

 

With Necrons they're not too complicated or tricky, unlike Eldar. In fact, they are pretty much polar opposites. Eldar are tricky, fast and mobile, but fragile and roll over and die if you put enough pressure on them. A player playing Eldar can't make a mistake, if he does he's probably lost.

 

Necrons, on the other hand, are durable, hard to kill, can hit like a ton of bricks when they want, and even when they kill they can come back. However, with a couple of exceptions they are stupidly slow, with no transports. Their strength comes from sticking together and always using their full power against the enemy. Unlike Eldar who can break into little groups that complement each other well (think Fire Dragon and Dire Avengers working together), Necrons need to stick together, partly to keep in Res Orb range, and partly because if they separate they'll get cut to ribbons.

 

Best of luck.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

Yup DarkGuard speaks the truth!

 

Eldar are basically built to operate seperately, they have their 'aspect' warriors. So different units will be tasked with doing different things, so you'll have to make sure you don't play into those when fighting the Eldar. However Necrons are more of a universal standard, things are similar army wide so they tend to stick together to maximise their output once you get into range

[DarkGuard]

Yup DarkGuard speaks the truth!

 

O yay. I thought I'd blab on about something and I might say something sensible and true in all of it :P.

 

Seriously though, I'd also recommend having a quick cheeky look at Grim's Enemies 101 in his signature. It has a quick one down on all the armies we can face, highlighting their strengths, weaknesses and best units. Know thy enemy right?

[Captain Denaro]

So I played the Necron game this morning and won quite comfortably in the end. We played Annihilation and it was slightly hairy at the start of turn 5, but by the end of turn 6 my opponent "phased out" for a comprehensive 1500 to 584 kill point win.

 

To summarise the game, he got turn 1 and I had everything held in reserve, either outflanking or marching on from my table edge. My bikes as usual were exceptional. Outflanking seems to really work for these guys, especially when led by Khan and the full 10 man squad (since you can't Combat squad reserves apparently) just steamrollered everything it came across. Even my scouts performed well in close combat, taking out one of the Necron warrior squads. Result was a full 9 VPs to 3 conceded. Very pleased.

 

Now to the Eldar, which I'll hopefully fight next week. There mobility concerns me greatly since I've only fought relatively slow/foor-slogger opponents with this current Fast Attack tactic (mech Guard, Tyranids and now Necron). I've posted the full list (which is now locked for the next game) and would welcome any specific pointers.

 

HQ:

205 Khan on Moondrakken

100 Librarian with Machine Curse and Vortex

 

TROOPS:

255 Tactical squad x 10 with plasma gun, multi-melta, combi-plasma, melta-bombs & Razorback with Heavy bolters, Storm Bolter and Hunter-killer

155 Scout squad x 10 with Heavy bolter and Melta-bombs

310 Bike squad x 8 with plasma gun, melta gun, power weapon, melta-bombs & Attack Bike with Multi-melta

 

FAST ATTACK:

180 Landspeeder Typhoon x 2, both with Heavy Bolters

70 Landspeeder x 1 with Heavy Flamer and Multi-melta

 

SUPPORT:

120 Vindicator woth dozer blades

105 Predator with Autocannon, Heavy bolters, Storm bolter and Hunter-killer.