Galacticz Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 So I watched my friend play his Blood Angel Army against a CSM player today. I was very surprised. Now My friend has been playing for quite some time, and has one several local tournies at our store, so I was very surprised at what i saw today... His Opponent was good, thats for sure. He won some type of 'Ard Boyz Tourny somewhere, had a nifty trophy. But His CSM army, what seemed to be very manageable in the beginning just blew my mind by the end of the game. My Buddy was running Sanguinator and Dante as HQ. (note: This was a 2500 point game). Sanguinator was in reserves a long with Dante. The reason why my bud chose to play these two is because the dude was Running Abbadon and some bad ass beserker dude as HQ's. He explained to me how badass Abbadon was, but with dante and Sang, he was sure he could Gimp him and focus him down with Razorback and Predator fire.. wrong. Turn one, the dude dumps a ton of Plague Marines and Beserkers on the board. The Berserkers seemed to easily catch up with my buddy's tact squads, and knock them down, all the while dodging Assault Cannon fire like pros. Somehow The Plague Marines were shrugging off Lascannon fire like nothing as well. So Plague Marines were holding Objectives everywhere, and by the time my buddy managed to kill off most of the berserkers and grab 2 out of the five objectives, he had a nice landraider full of this badass Khârn guy and his berserker buddies, which managed to somehow kill a 5 man TH/SS (3), Lightning claw (2) Termie squad who had a Termie Priest with them... Without losing 25% and two wounds on Khârn. Khârn then managed to cut through 2 assault squads (5 man) before dying and only dropped when Dante and his honor guard dropped down and Melta'd him to death. All the while, the CSM player was still holding with the PM's, who's annoying bolters seemed to always cut through power armor, and were unleashing plasma shots like it was nobodies business. By Turn 4; my buddy was holding 1 contesting 2, and the CSM player was holding 2 and contesting 2. Finally, My bud managed to pull out the sanguinator who managed to help grab one objective and contest one of his. The score now was Buddy: 2 held, 2 contested; to CSM: 1 held, 2 contested. Then Abbadon dropped down on dante (who was holding an Objective). Abbadon showed up with a squad of 5 termies who were super tooled out. they shrugged off lascannons, meltas, and only lost one termie by the end of my bud's shooting phase, where he focused every shot he could on them. Abbadon then proceded to kill dante with a single hit (somehow he still had str 8.. charge maybe?) , and wipe out his honor guard in a single assault phase. Oh no! The sanguinator showed up showed up the next turn with a squad of 4 sang guard. The fight lasted till the end of the game at turn 6. by the end, it was Abbadon at 2 wounds, with a single Termie left, fight 2 Sang guard. He won, because all the while, his remaining bersekers managed to take one of my bud's objectives and the plague marines fought off the contesting sang guard. I guess it was a good game, but why the hell does it seem Abbadon can soak up massive amounts of fire and kill chapters masters and their bodyguards in a single phase, and then knock down our most badass HQ in two turns without dying? AND WHAT THE DEAL IS UP WITH PLAGUE MARINES!? Sooooo many saves... ((Sorry about the horrible spelling and grammar, i was speed typing.)) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222759-chaos-space-marines/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zid Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 Heres the deal: Plague marines are tough. Very tough. T5 w/ a 3+ save and FNP base. However, they're expensive and slow. Khorne zerkers are WS5 with FC base; but they require transports to get into the fray quickly. They die as easily as any other marine as long as they don't get the charge (they get like 30+ attacks on the charge in a full squad) Abaddon is, bar none, one of the most beastly HQ's in the game. 2+/4++ save, T5, WS 8 (or 7), he gets 3 or 4 attacks base + 1d6 attacks, and hes str 8 at I5. Hes a badass. Your buddy actually played a milder version of what I used to run when I played chaos (I ran abby w/ 8 zerkers in a LR). Whatever abby gets into CC with will usually die (including mephiston, he'll typically lose to abby 1v1) Chaos is specialized, but everything they can do, we can easily combat it. Your buddy sunk way too many points in 2 HQ's and relied heavily on anti-mech. Did his opponent run an entirely foot-slogging chaos army? If thats the case, yeah, you can get a LOT of models. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222759-chaos-space-marines/#findComment-2663029 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galacticz Posted February 18, 2011 Author Share Posted February 18, 2011 Mostly, the He fielded 3 squads of Plague Marines, and 3 squads of berserkers in rhinos. I was mistaken, He had these Jump troops too, that were picking up contested objectives towards the end. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222759-chaos-space-marines/#findComment-2663033 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zid Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 Mostly, the He fielded 3 squads of Plague Marines, and 3 squads of berserkers in rhinos. I was mistaken, He had these Jump troops too, that were picking up contested objectives towards the end. Yeah, thats a basic choppy Chaos list. At least he wasn't running lash + obliterators; that list is rediculously annoying. Just sounds like tough luck then on your buddies part. Tough to kill plague marines, and zerkers to chop apart things. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222759-chaos-space-marines/#findComment-2663042 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Adams Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 as a chaos player, i can tell ya, when things go your way, its a hard army to stop. Yes, the codex kinda sucks, Yes it is expensive, but there really are some nasties in that book. Abaddon is quite simply one of the dirtiest characters in the game. Best Part is, he's an independent character, so you can hide him in a squad. Running him with termies is nasty, but dangerous, as the termies aren't fearless, you kill half of them and they fail leadership, by by baddon Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222759-chaos-space-marines/#findComment-2663049 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperors Immortals Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 I played Chaos since i picked up teh brush (then it was BA all the way) but ill never fight Nurgle and Khorne together with 500 pts in HQ - put some of that in either plasma HQ or VV and TAKE SOME TANKS (personally i take LS but i know what i can get away with !!!). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222759-chaos-space-marines/#findComment-2663054 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 Sounds like Chaos made every save they needed and BA failed every save they needed. It's not like I'm going to trade my army for Chaos SM. G :teehee: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222759-chaos-space-marines/#findComment-2663079 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMouth Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 Sounds like Chaos made every save they needed and BA failed every save they needed. It's not like I'm going to trade my army for Chaos SM. G ;) ^^^ This. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222759-chaos-space-marines/#findComment-2663115 Share on other sites More sharing options...
d503 Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 My favourite CSM army is tzeench cult, but whenever I use it nowadays all librarians 'just so happened to have' the re-roll invulnerable saves power that completely ruins the army. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222759-chaos-space-marines/#findComment-2663388 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shan vener Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 Khorne zerkers are WS5 with FC base; but they require transports to get into the fray quickly. They die as easily as any other marine as long as they don't get the charge (they get like 30+ attacks on the charge in a full squad) actually the number is WAY more. a FULL squad (no casualties) would get 80 ATTACKS!!! at S5 and I5 full zerker squad = 20 zerkers 2 attacks base +1 for 2 CCW +1 for charge Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222759-chaos-space-marines/#findComment-2663400 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nathan Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 what others said. plague marines are on, if not the, best objective holding unit in the game. and bezerkers are amongst the best cc troops along with the dc. and abadon is a beast, but id just tell you dc that its horus, kill him! and have the sanguinator back them up too.. last time i facedkhorn bezerkers, they charged, caused no casultys then got wiped out by an assault squad with priest and chappy.... good times... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222759-chaos-space-marines/#findComment-2663411 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 I guess it was a good game, but why the hell does it seem Abbadon can soak up massive amounts of fire and kill chapters masters and their bodyguards in a single phase, and then knock down our most badass HQ in two turns without dying?He can't in normal games, they a played 2500+ point game after all. Abaddon doesn't have the staying power or delivery method to be viable in anything below 2k. Then there's the issue if he rolls a 1 for his bonus attacks.. :tu: AND WHAT THE DEAL IS UP WITH PLAGUE MARINES!? Sooooo many saves...Using the wrong weapons to kill plagues usually nets you that result. :P Also, Why was your bud's Lascannons firing at Plague Marines and not at transports? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222759-chaos-space-marines/#findComment-2663569 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady_Canoness Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 Did someone just under-estimate the Chaos Marines? In future, be wary of Chaos Cult troops (Berzerkers, Plague Marines, Thousand Sons, Noise Marines) It sounds like your friend tried to kill them as if they were ordinary marines. They're not. As Nihm suggested (so good to see a familiar face in an unfamiliar forum :) ) the way to beat these guys is through gimping the transports, as I would not trust what Nathan says to hold true. As someone who likes Berzerkers, I've walked them through just about every unit in the Blood Angels book (my best bud play BA, who knew?) with the exception of a full Death Company. Good rule to live by when fighting Chaos: You like assault, they like it more, so make sure you've got a plan B. ... now try teaching that to an ork. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222759-chaos-space-marines/#findComment-2663641 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nathan Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 yea the chances of me surviving that combat,never mind wining it were low... andif your gonna end in cc with most things make sure you charge. usually the extra strength can help(ie plague/nurgle marines) never mind getting initive 5 which wil help you strike at the same time(noise/slanesh) or deny them the bonuses (khorne) but whatever rember most of their guys are as good as assault marines in cc but with bolters too... chaos is still very competitive regardless of the common streamlined lists you normally see. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222759-chaos-space-marines/#findComment-2663666 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperors Immortals Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 Did someone just under-estimate the Chaos Marines? In future, be wary of Chaos Cult troops (Berzerkers, Plague Marines, Thousand Sons, Noise Marines) It sounds like your friend tried to kill them as if they were ordinary marines. They're not. As Nihm suggested (so good to see a familiar face in an unfamiliar forum :P ) the way to beat these guys is through gimping the transports, as I would not trust what Nathan says to hold true. As someone who likes Berzerkers, I've walked them through just about every unit in the Blood Angels book (my best bud play BA, who knew?) with the exception of a full Death Company. Good rule to live by when fighting Chaos: You like assault, they like it more, so make sure you've got a plan B. ... now try teaching that to an ork. Orks dont surrender; they just WAAAAGGGHHHH!!! the other way. Seriously though, - chaos are designed to be tough, murdering gang of :) and they do it damn well. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222759-chaos-space-marines/#findComment-2663673 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 The funny thing for me is I play loyalist marines when I want to beat something up in close combat (my Angels Vermillion) and Chaos Marines when I want to out shoot them (of course my Chaos is a Tzeentch/Slaanesh mix) My experience against chaos (khorne heavy in particular) is that whoever charges wins. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222759-chaos-space-marines/#findComment-2663674 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tabgoi Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 Maybe I am missing something, but your buddy had razorbacks and predators. Once you shoot the transports out from underneath the bezerkers, how would they ever manage to charge his units? He should have been able to dictate what units enter close combat and when. And berzerkers are not that tough in close combat once they have been shot up a bit and get charged by multiple units. I would have used the terminators to attack the plague marines, that way their FNP is useless and cover saves cannot save them from lightning claws and power fists. In third edition the biggest mistake almost every player made against my army was trying to shoot my DC to death. FNP made them survive horrendous amounts of shots directed at them so the rest of my army was unmolested, and Plague Marines in cover are going to be even more difficult to defeat with shooting. Sure you can just keep forcing armor saves, but you are better off using that firepower against the zerkers and other squishier targets. It sounds like your friend was beaten by someone who had much better control of the board then he did. Any battle is won or lost based on who dictates when the actual fighting will occur. What unit gets shot when, and which units enter close combat and how. To this you have to know how your enemies army functions so you can fight their weaknesses and not try to chip away at their strengths. Too many players lose because they have no idea how their enemies armies function, many more lose ebcause they do not even know how their own army functions. I am not saying key rolls did not help determine the outcome, luck always plays a part, but you can mitigate its effects by stacking the odds in your favor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222759-chaos-space-marines/#findComment-2664061 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demoulius Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 sounds like your buddy had lots of bad luck man. it happens. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222759-chaos-space-marines/#findComment-2664137 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 Abaddon is the chosen of the Chaos Gods. He should be able to take apart pretty much anything. It sounds like the rolls were more than a little crappy. That's never fun. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222759-chaos-space-marines/#findComment-2664144 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ancient god Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 Lascannon should cut through Plague Marines like any other MEQ, though. Wound on 2+ and no FNP as the lascannon is AP2 and that's it, unless they're in cover. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222759-chaos-space-marines/#findComment-2664162 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baba Lem Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 Stormshields versus Abbadon. Or take two wounds off and try to Ini 7 him (FC) with Dante. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222759-chaos-space-marines/#findComment-2664186 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valkyrion Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 Lascannon should cut through Plague Marines like any other MEQ, though. Wound on 2+ and no FNP as the lascannon is AP2 and that's it, unless they're in cover. I was thinking this. Plague Marines die to lascannons just as easily as any other marine without an Invulnerable or Cover Save. Also, Plague Marines aren't any slower than any other marine either. They can run and ride in transports just the same. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222759-chaos-space-marines/#findComment-2664697 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperors Immortals Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 Nurgle fall to plasma squads just as fast as anyone else, same as melta. Abadon is tricky - shoot his bodygaurd apart and just try to outlast him in combat, Drach'nyen will do teh rest for you :cuss Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222759-chaos-space-marines/#findComment-2664708 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkio Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 just dont let the zerkers, charge i had 3 dc and lemartes (angry) take out blackheart and 9 zerkers in a single round of combat. dc has 2 pw's and a thunder hammer Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222759-chaos-space-marines/#findComment-2664811 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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