Dreadnought Loadout

[pryor]

Everyone raves about the riflemen loadout (2 TLAC) on a dreadnought & after using a pair of riflemen in a couple games I can understand why but my question is a Dreadnought with a single TLAC & DCC still a viable loadout?

I am considering running a pair in this configuration but has anyone actually tried it and, if yes, how did it perform?

Is it better to take the other weapons that are available at the same cost (PC, AC or TLHB at a slightly cheaper cost)?

[spartan249]

I've taken it a few times, and I suppose it works decently enough. I, however, like taking the TLLC much more than taking a TLAC just for the extra 2 strength and ap2.

 

I personally think it's a little underwhelming.

[DarkGuard]

The reason the Rifleman works so well is that it has a lot of shots, all of which is twin-linked. Chances are you'll hit with all your shots, and that's when your opponent's vehicles are in trouble. By taking one autocannon off, you're significantly taking its effectiveness down a notch. You need at least three shots to reliably take out a tank, one or two will only be handy for stun-locking. So if you want to just disrupt go ahead and try it. If you want to destroy, then keep the Rifleman pattern.

 

The second thing is that Riflemans do well hanging in the back line, safe from threats. That's why they don't need DCCWs. Take that and they all of sudden look like they operating closer, and then you might as well take an assault cannon, same amount of shots as a Rifleman, able to take out infantry and vehicles.

 

About the plasma cannon, I have never used one on a Dread but I've always wanted to. My brother, however, uses one, and it does OK I think. Struggles against mech, but if one of his other units take out a tank that plasma cannon can be nasty on clumped infantry. Very good against footsloggers, especially Necrons. I'd take it for the simple fact that it doesn't suffer overheat rolls.

[TyrionTheImp]

I've used the Plasma Cannon/DCCW a few times, it's quite underwhelming to be honest, I'd stick with the Assault Cannon if you're doing a midfield Dread over anything else.

 

That said, Rifleman dreads are probably the best variant of a dreadnought period. It's extremely versatile and I think people often forget that 4 highly accurate Str 7 Shots are insanely good against MC's and good against infantry. Having more than one just makes them all that better. I just wish they were easier to make than ordering Forge World bits.

 

A single autocannon dread doesn't work as well because you're basically equipping it with a gun that should be fired at long range, and a close combat weapon that wants to move forward. The Assault Cannon is better for this job as its range is only 24", but you still get a high amount of high strength shots (plus rending) to be effective against most things before charging in with your DCCW.

[Schultzhoffen]

A Rifleman Dread is good, as is a Las/Missile L Dread.

 

Unless you're using a BA dread (or some other variant), stick to a mobile fire support platform as your average dreadnought is very mediocre in CC.

[BAjim]

I battled the Dark Eldar recently using a Dreadnought with TLAC and TLHB. It was extremely effective against their skimmers (Raiders and Ravagers). A high number of penetrations and glancing shots. The DE player was losing his cool because the Twin Linked re-rolls meant that I rarely missed. :thanks:

[DarkGuard]

I battled the Dark Eldar recently using a Dreadnought with TLAC and TLHB. It was extremely effective against their skimmers (Raiders and Ravagers). A high number of penetrations and glancing shots. The DE player was losing his cool because the Twin Linked re-rolls meant that I rarely missed. :lol:

 

True, Dark Eldar hate dakka Dreads for want of a better word. Of course, I'd still rate the Rifleman above TLAC/TLHB, even against DE. Trading one shot for two more points of strength is one of the few times when it is well worth it.

 

I've played Dark Eldar four times now since the recent Codex, and the Rifleman Dreads have been fantastic at taking down their skimmers, especially when paired with the Librarian's Null Zone which makes them re-roll flickerfields. Night shields hardly affect them either thanks to their long range and ability to move. In fact, I'd go so far to say that the army Rifleman Dreads like playing against the most are Dark Eldar, shortly followed by Rhino and Razor spam.

[El_Skirvo]

Anyone try out a TLAC\MM dread? That gives modest suppression fire at range, and serious tank busting power within 24". I think a pair of those would work pretty well together on the back line.

[thade]

I use TLAC/DCCW very frequently. My reasons:

- Twin-linked Heavy 2 Str 7 at 48" is my all-around favorite Rhino-killer.

- If I take 2xTLAC on the same Dread, that Dread invariably gets mired in assault with an infantry squad. With the fist, they are much less likely to charge him and - if they do - Str 10 PW is hands down better than Str 6 vanilla, especially when he only gets two attacks.

- Dreads with their fists can tear open LRs and Monoliths in a pinch.

 

The second bullet is really the sell-point for me. If you can afford to leave an assault squad or something else back with him to lend a hand in melee, two autocannons might be worth your while...but I like to stick him all by himself somewhere to help with crossfire and cover more area. If he's alone, a fist he gets; at least, in my list.

[Captain Idaho]

Depending on your army and style of play, there are good reasons for Dreads with DCCWs and Rifleman Dreads - both can be game winners. Personally I use my Dreads for close range fighting, so an Assault Cannon fits the bill with the DCCW, better in my case than a single autocannon.

 

Of course the thing dies most games, so it often becomes little more than a fire-vacuum...

 

I'm still leaning towards a Dread with Autocannon and Assault Cannon for real powerful medium ranged tank-opener ability. Haven't playtested yet though.

[DarkGuard]

I use TLAC/DCCW very frequently. My reasons:

- Twin-linked Heavy 2 Str 7 at 48" is my all-around favorite Rhino-killer.

- If I take 2xTLAC on the same Dread, that Dread invariably gets mired in assault with an infantry squad. With the fist, they are much less likely to charge him and - if they do - Str 10 PW is hands down better than Str 6 vanilla, especially when he only gets two attacks.

- Dreads with their fists can tear open LRs and Monoliths in a pinch.

 

The second bullet is really the sell-point for me. If you can afford to leave an assault squad or something else back with him to lend a hand in melee, two autocannons might be worth your while...but I like to stick him all by himself somewhere to help with crossfire and cover more area. If he's alone, a fist he gets; at least, in my list.

 

I find the second bullet to be the exact opposite. IIRC my Dreads have never been in combat unless I charged them in. As the rest of my army operates at a more midtable position, it means that my opponent has to get through the rest of my army before they take on the Dread, unless they want to shoot it. Of course, with two Vindicators and the promise of 30 Marines in Rhinos, plus my MM/HF Speeders I find my Dreads only get shot at if my opponent has nothing else to do, let alone get assaulted. The main strength of a Rifleman is being able to stay 48" away from the enemy, thereby lessening the chance of it getting assaulted. And if does get assaulted, and not that Tactical squad on your objective, then surely that's a result?

[puck]

I recently picked up a dread myself and after reading this thread I'm a little worried no one mentioned my load out: TLLC/TLAC. Las cannon will help me pen heavy tanks while the auto cannon can drop skimmers and transports. both have 48" range so I thought they'd work well together. Am I wrong in this?

[TyrionTheImp]

Eh, the Lascannon isn't exactly great for killing heavy tanks either. Str 9 is still iffy on Av 14, and not so great at AV13, and if you're shooting at either of those with that dread, your Str 7 Autocannon shots become basically useless. The premium you pay for the Lascannon isn't worth it to me either, you're paying 3x as much for the Lascannon to be slightly more effective against lighter vehicles, and gain some (but very little) effectiveness against heavier things.

[Brother Valerius]

I wouldn't really classify str 9 as "not so great" vs AV13. That's the same matchup as an autocannon (str 7) vs a Rhino (AV11 except on rear), and no one doubts the latter. The lascannon is a little iffy on AV14, but so is melta, considering you have to be within 12" to scratch the paint (6 if it's a meltagun). For my money, I'll take a 1/3 chance anywhere on the board over an excellent chance in specific situations any day.

[TyrionTheImp]

Yes, but the reason why the autocannon works against AV11 so well is it has 2 shots, well 4 twin-linked if you go Rifleman.

 

Lascannons, like most things, are great in numbers, the problem is fitting that many lascannons into a list cost-effectively. Combi-preds, and las-plas razor's come to mind, and maybe Sternguard-Devs (Cheaper than normal Devs with them), but honestly if I need heavy tank killy-power I can fit more meltas in more cost-effectively. Melta is available in literally every slot and is not very expensive, so it's not hard to fit in enough melta-death to slag any vehicle that might show up at any place on the board.

 

When you look at a melta in a vacuum (IE, only effective within certain ranges) then yes it doesn't look great, but when you add that to the fact it's cheap and available to a lot of units it becomes a lot more effective. If I had a choice between 1 multi-melta and a Lascannon, I'd take the lascannon for certain, but when I can take a lot more multi-meltas for the cost of one Lascannon, the multi-meltas look much more appealing.

 

The reason why the Rifleman dreads are so good is because they can blow up transports from a long range effectively, add wounds to force saves on MC's, move 6" and maybe side-shot those heavier-front armored vehicles, and add more AV12 to your army all for a pretty reasonable price. If you want lascannons take a combi-pred, they pretty much fill the same role as a Rifleman dread, but aren't as mobile or accurate, but they do give AV13.

[Twisted100]

if your dread has two shooting arms and you take glance or pen you lose a turn effectively. That is why I always include extra armor and a DCCW when i take a dread. any glancing on penetrating hit and you cant shoot but you can still move and assault. if your too far away to assault you can run, closing the gap between you and your target. before you know it you'll be able to blow the land raider and assault the guys inside in one turn.

[DarkGuard]

if your dread has two shooting arms and you take glance or pen you lose a turn effectively. That is why I always include extra armor and a DCCW when i take a dread. any glancing on penetrating hit and you cant shoot but you can still move and assault. if your too far away to assault you can run, closing the gap between you and your target. before you know it you'll be able to blow the land raider and assault the guys inside in one turn.

 

For a Rifleman this is a flawed concept. If you're playing properly and operating at long range, there will be nothing to assault with your Dread. Considering the fact you've payed for a heavy flamer and extra armour, that's 140pts sitting around doing nothing instead of 125pts. Sure you're a bit closer, but if you're using an autocannon you don't want to be closer.

 

And if your opponent has shot your Dread why are you complaining? Surely your Dread isn't the centre of your army, and that you have another load of things just as dangerous if not more so that he could have been shooting at. I run my Riflemans as a pair, mutually supporting one another. If one is stunned or shaken, I move it out the way if I can, or pop smoke if I cannot, and let the other pick up the slack, and use the rest of my army. One Dreads is only a fraction of what me army can bring to bear, I can do without it for a turn if I'm forced to.

 

Don't get me wrong, there's time for DCCWs and extra armour, normally on assault cannon and multi-melta Dreads that need to be close. But having two shooting arms doesn't mean your Dread is awful. In fact, Dreads suck at close combat. 2/3 WS4 attacks? Not amazing. Would I prefer to spend 35pts on a footslogging Dread with assault cannon that's mediochre in shooting and CC, 45pts on a MM/HF Dread in a Pod doing suicide tactics I don't like using, or 20pts on a Dread with a fantastic rate of highly accurate firepower that sits at the back of my army and is largely ignored most of the time? Each of these Dreads have their uses, and it comes down to what you want. For me, my Dreads have been about long-ranged anti-tank. Beforehand, that meant a TL-LC and DCCW w/HF. Then I started using Riflemans, which that job much more efficiently and for a smaller points cost.

 

And about the TL-LC/TL-AC set up, that won't work for the same reasons as TyrionTheImp says, it's not about the quality but the quantity of shots. If you want lascannons then combi-preds will serve you better for a cheaper points cost, and you've got the same quantity of shots (just not as accurate). Although I haven't used a combi-pred yet, due to me preferring Vindys, my friend has started using one recently, and even after two games he swears by it, as it's done everything that he's asked of it.

[Twisted100]

if your dread has two shooting arms and you take glance or pen you lose a turn effectively. That is why I always include extra armor and a DCCW when i take a dread. any glancing on penetrating hit and you cant shoot but you can still move and assault. if your too far away to assault you can run, closing the gap between you and your target. before you know it you'll be able to blow the land raider and assault the guys inside in one turn.

 

For a Rifleman this is a flawed concept. If you're playing properly and operating at long range, there will be nothing to assault with your Dread.

 

There are a lot of fast units out there along with units that can scout, outflank,infiltrate and deep strike its not that hard to reach your opponets gun line on turn one.

 

you don't take a DCCW for the number of attacks you take it for the strength 10.

[Captain Idaho]

Personally I rate Lascannons on Dreadnoughts, but only ones with either a Lascannon/ML or DCCW. This is because the former allows for more mobile firepower for the points and the latter means for the points you have a counter attack unit and an extra Lascannon shot in the army.

 

Whilst a single Lascannon won't destroy a Landraider most turns, the fact is it grants you the possibility of doing so at ranges greater than 24" and an increased chance at ranges greater than "12. This is a tactical option most people ignore in favour of increased Melta weapons.

 

Another point on the increased range capacity of Lascannon is popping lightly armour vehicles (AV10-11) is very possible, so the Lascannon is still useful when not shooting at long range heavily armoured targets. Plus it is AP2.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

I personally am drawn to the assault cannon, DCCW, heavy flamer variant as this seems to fit the space marines midfield shooting army feel, but also the twin linked Lascannon and missile launcher dread for a high strength shot and some anti-infantry punch. The rifleman i WOULD love if it really existed in model parts, but as it stands its £27+ for the dread, then £15 for the autocannon arms. Thats like a £42 dread, which in my eyes is far too much. FAAAR too much! But also the lack of a DCCW means it can't go melee in those 'in case' scenarios. Hiding a unit behind a shield of allies is quite a reliable strategy, but not fool-proof and so that dread could get a right kicking!

 

I feel the combi pred would fit its role quite well, plus its quite a bit cheaper!

[DarkGuard]

if your dread has two shooting arms and you take glance or pen you lose a turn effectively. That is why I always include extra armor and a DCCW when i take a dread. any glancing on penetrating hit and you cant shoot but you can still move and assault. if your too far away to assault you can run, closing the gap between you and your target. before you know it you'll be able to blow the land raider and assault the guys inside in one turn.

 

For a Rifleman this is a flawed concept. If you're playing properly and operating at long range, there will be nothing to assault with your Dread.

 

There are a lot of fast units out there along with units that can scout, outflank,infiltrate and deep strike its not that hard to reach your opponets gun line on turn one.

 

you don't take a DCCW for the number of attacks you take it for the strength 10.

 

I suppose there are a few units that can do that. Fortunately I don't face many of them in my metagame, so most people are having to come through my Vindys and Rhinos before they can reach midfield, and very few make it.

 

And you take the DCCW for strength 10 and ignoring armour, that is true. I was just pointing out that the small number of attacks and average WS makes it no better than a power fist in most instances, and in the cases of power fists the rest of the squad can usually contribute something. In my experience, when you roll your Dreadnought's attacks, however, you'll normally miss one, meaning you'll kill one guy per round (two if you charge), and if you go after a character they have half a chance of negating that. For upwards of 120/130pts, that's not a good return, especially if you're counting on that killing people in combat. A Captain with lightning claws will kill more guys in combat, unless it's a walker or an MC, in which case why is your walker in combat with them?

 

As for chasing down Land Raiders, I suppose you could get there after a few turns if your opponent stays still and neglects to shoot your with his lascannons, or his assault cannons and his multi-melta. Or you could pod him in, which requires at least another 35pts, and the fact that you have to stand for a turn in the open after your opening shot. Plus the Drop Pod could still scatter, meaning you have to walk him anyway.

 

I'm not having a go at DCCWs, and Dreads equipped with them, it just that it seems to me like you're putting double ranged weapon Dreads down because they have no ability in combat. In the right list this is negligible, and the DCCW while cool, isn't a combat winner on its own. Plus, Dreads without DCCWs are still all right, S6 is nothing to be sniffed at, especially if you're trying to squish an Archon :D.

 

@Idaho, I used to use a DCCW/HF and TL-LC Dread, worked really well in my army. It teamed up with a TL-LC Razorback and they did all right together. Then I converted both my Dreads into Rifleman, and because I had to glue the arms on I can't change them back. I will have to invest in magnets some day soon. But for a long-range sniper with counter attack potential you can't do much better than that Dread.

 

@Grim, I would agree with those assessments, and I do like the look of the assault cannon Dread. I feel that for a footslogging Dread that's looking to support the midfield, you can't do much better than an assault cannon, heavy flamer and extra armour.

[waaanial00]

Even with S10 dreadnoughts are underwhelming in combat. Unsupported you will be lucky if they can fight there way out of a small sized infantry unit. They just are too easy to stun and immobililse by power fists and dont even get me started on Monsterous Creatures.

 

The Rifleman has its place, it has earned that because it does really well in shooting from long ranges. Dont worry if your enemy is rushing a CC unit into them because if you were smart there would be a decent counter assault unit close at hand to mop them up. If they are being shot at then they are doing their job of attracting firepower away from your game winners (troops and other support units).

 

Halving the numer of attacks and taking a Heavy Flamer/DCCW (why ever take a storm bolter?) is basically ruining your dreadnought. At this point I would just throw an assault cannon on it and use it as a close assault element for my Troops. I would still need to get a combi predator or Typhoon to provide long range support fire because you need it.

 

I think if you are only planning on taking 1 Autocannon arm then take something else.

[TyrionTheImp]

Even with S10 dreadnoughts are underwhelming in combat. Unsupported you will be lucky if they can fight there way out of a small sized infantry unit. They just are too easy to stun and immobililse by power fists and dont even get me started on Monsterous Creatures.

 

The Rifleman has its place, it has earned that because it does really well in shooting from long ranges. Dont worry if your enemy is rushing a CC unit into them because if you were smart there would be a decent counter assault unit close at hand to mop them up. If they are being shot at then they are doing their job of attracting firepower away from your game winners (troops and other support units).

 

Halving the numer of attacks and taking a Heavy Flamer/DCCW (why ever take a storm bolter?) is basically ruining your dreadnought. At this point I would just throw an assault cannon on it and use it as a close assault element for my Troops. I would still need to get a combi predator or Typhoon to provide long range support fire because you need it.

 

I think if you are only planning on taking 1 Autocannon arm then take something else.

 

This. This sums up my entire feeling on dreadnoughts. And definitely right about the combi-predator or typhoons, because long range fire support is needed in every army, and should be available to every army (it's available in 3 slots on different platforms), there's honestly no reason not to have long range fire support whether it's from Typhoons, Riflemen, Combi-preds, or even Devastators (Which are good in bike lists imho where AV isn't common and more bodies is worth more than a few things with AV that are easily blown up).

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah I gotta say, I don't think a single twin-linked autocannon and DCCW is particularly effective, especially in comparison to performance of a single Assault Cannon or Lascannon. It's lacklustre compared to a Predator with either sponson choices too.

 

Ultimately, you are buying it for distinctly mediocre capacity in shooting and assault, replacing a higher than average shooting unit. (points to unit ratio).

 

If you want a jack of all trades Dread (I suppose the Ironclad is the assault variant, which I love to field, you need a powerful solo weapon. An Assault cannon and Lascannon is what fits the bill here, as do Plasma Cannon. You won't have a model that will outshoot Obliterators nor out assault Fiends of Slaanesh, but you have a reasonable model that is tenacious enough to be a feasible power multiplier to guard the back field or advance to midfield.

 

That's why they die so easily. Opponents make sure a Dread with it's S10 weapon isn't in the way so they target it to remove it out the equation.

 

Of course, you can't expect a counter charge from a Dread to win you a game!

[Shadowstalker Grim]

Because of the rifleman's rather impressive standard of shooting and rather cheap pricing, does anyone think it'll suffer a nurf or price hike come the next edition or codex? Things that outshine the rest of the codex usually seem to get hit...

 

But I think out of all the dread builds, if you're willing to pay for the rifleman and go to the trouble of assembling it, its a worthwhile addition! Perhaps more so than some of the other dread builds which are a little less bang for your buck.

 

I still think a DCCW is a worthwhile addition, but I don't see it as a tool to take on infantry with really. I see it as more of a place to stick the heavy flamer to help cleanse hordes, or to wade in against squads in conjunction with something else, reflecting my opinion of using them in the midfield. (I wouldn't make it solo something unless it would be to tie them up). It could be worthwhile on vehicles if they're stunned and immobilised perhaps, allowing for an easy time of tearing apart the hull. But generally it'll help deliver some nasty punches if the enemy isn't careful...