Lost legions...

[Lord Scytha]

I've presumed to take the liberty of breaking this post out from the IA: Jade Emperors DIY thread [Linky] because I found this post extremely thrilling but didn't want to derail the Jade Emperors thread by staring an off topic discussion about this.

However, I would love to see an discussion about this here.

 

 

(If by breaking this out like this I've offended someone, in particular Aegnor, or over stepped any boundaries or broken any rules I apologise in advance for doing so. I only had the best intentions in mind.)

 

Actually the most difficult thing you're going to have to overcome is the last part. The reason for the Primarch and his Legion being completely erased from the records. It has to be something that far outstretches the sins of Horus and the other fallen Primarchs. I can only think of one reason, and I'm writing a story about it now.

 

Actually I quite disagree with this assumption - was going to pull you up on it before but didnt want to derail the thread, but given the OP has flagged they're pausing to do a big rewrite, i'll chime in.

 

To my mind, it isn't at all clear that what the lost legions did was worse that the known traitor legions. First, we need to be honest that those legions actually existing in the official fluff as actual legions is a retcon from their original purpose of being intentional blank slates for people to invent their own fluff. If we set that aside, in-universe there are two reasons why the Emperor might order all records of a legion be destroyed and it's name etc forgotten. 1) he has some cool secret purpose for them that requires that kind of secrecy, or 2) they did something really bad. From the hints we've got in the HH series to date, I think it's clear that, so far as the Primarchs know, it's option 2.

 

So what did they do? And was it worse than the Traitor legions. The argument that it was worse is that the records of the identities and deeds of the traitor legions haven't been deleted, where as the two lost legions have been. To make this argument, you have to assume that the seriousness of the offense is the sole criteria for deletion vs "just" being declared traitor excommunicate. I think there's two other equally important criteria - the ability to cover up whatever happened and the desire to do so.

 

Let's assume for the moment that both lost legions maybe fell to the worship of Chaos and definitely violently rebelled against the Emperor's rule, and did so early in the GC. If they did so, based on what we've seen in the HH series to date, both were put down quite quickly and only rumours exist as to what actually happened. If their rebellions were crushed swiftly and without their actions being visible to the majority of the Imperium AND the imperial forces, then it's quite easy for the Emperor to swear those involved in putting down the rebellion to secrecy and have all reference to the traitors removed - there's won't be too many loose ends to explain away. It's possible to suppress the knowledge.

 

Now let's look at having the desire to do so. Prior to the outbreak of the Heresy, the Emperor's position on the existence of Chaos was clear - suppress all knowledge of it as much as possible, and where you do have to tell people about it, conceal the full nature of what it is (ie Horus' explanation to Loken in Horus Rising - daemons are just aggressive xenos who live in the warp). This policy was only changed to one of letting those with a need to know cultivate knowledge of it so as to seek it out and destroy it's incursions in the events at the end if Flight of the Eisenstein - the implied creation of the Inquisition. I think it really only changed significantly with the ascension of the Emperor to the Golden Throne. So, prior to the Heresy, if the lost legions fell to chaos, the Emperor had a desire to cover it up.

 

So why didn't they do the same for those involved in the Heresy then? My view is that the Heresy was simply too big, too widespread, and created too many lasting marks on the Imperium for it to be possible for the Imperium to suppress the knowledge of it. The rebels were defeated, but not annihilated, so some knowledge of them needed to be maintained to permit a proper defense against them. There were too many worlds devastated, not least Terra itself, for the events to be concealed. Purging all those with knowledge of it would have proven impossible without fatally wounding an already badly reeling Imperium. And I think the Heresy forced a re-evaluation of the policy of completely suppressing knowledge of Chaos. Obviously the knowledge is still tightly controlled, but you see agencies like the Inquisition and Grey Knights set up, the Eccliesarchy start preaching that the Emperor is a God protecting humanity from evil. So it was neither possible, or even necessarily desired to completely suppress the knowledge of the Heresy. Rather, the villains of the Heresy were made anathema and became cautionary tales.

 

Honestly, I can't really imagine what the two lost legions did that could be considered worse than what Horus did - he virtually killed the Emperor and murdered trillions. I think it's what Dorn said, he had thought the Lost alegions were freak, isolated aberrations, but now wondered if they had been unheeded warnings.

 

 

Now I've haven't read all the HH books yet so I can't comment on that. Though, personally I'd be disappointed if the HH books actually revealed the secrets of the lost legions and especially if they allowed both of them to go bad thus leaving them unusable by loyalist space marines.

 

Except for the would thought reasons given Aegnor here I can think of two more reasons for why the lost legions would be stricken from the record.

The first is if the two lost primarchs died before being reunited with the Emperor. Then it stands to reason that He would disband "their" Legions and erase them from record.

The second is if the their geneseed simply was to flawed, think SW times 100, so that it was not possible to create new space marines after the first batch and they simply died out before any lasting record were made of them.

 

Now I don't think either of my examples are very likely. But they work as examples that the reasons the records of the lost legions is missing could be for other reasons than them just going bad and betraying the Emperor.

 

Heck, for all we know the reason they are lost is because an Adept scribe filed their records under Q by mistake.

[Aegnor]

How dare you quote one of my posts and label it "thrilling"! I won't be spoken to in this way I tells ya!

 

 

:D :) :lol: :D

[Brother Tyler]

Perpetually ongoing discussion here

[Ferrata]

The first is if the two lost primarchs died before being reunited with the Emperor. Then it stands to reason that He would disband "their" Legions and erase them from record.

Or, probably more logically, that the two Primarchs were reunited with their Legions and fought in the GC. Remember there were statues made of them. If they died in battle, it would falter the idea that Primarchs were nearly invincible - it would weaken their power. If it was possible for a Primarch to be bettered in combat and tactics, then might it cause Astartes to question their lead? So, the Big E decides, along with his Sons, that it is better to pretend they were wiped out by Astartes and the E Himself for doing something bad then to accept that they are beatable :devil:

[ANGRYMARINE]

I know that in the recent Black Library novels The First Heretic, and Prospero Burns it is hinted that the 2 lost legions did something pretty bad to get themselves erased, that the Space Wolves were instructed by the emperor to wipe them out (maybe), Lorgar had a pretty close relationship with one or both of the unknown Primarchs, and that whatever was left of the Legions after they were "dealt with" were absorbed into the Ultramarines. Look up the topic on Lexicanum for a bit more in-depth info.