BloodWulf Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Hey all, For my Carcharodons list I am looking for a good counter attack element to add to a Codex list. I need the hammer to pound my enemies against the anvil of my Tacticals and Heavy Support Choices. I am looking for some of your best units to get some ideas if you dont mind. Somethings I am specifically wondering about are Vanguard Vets, Terminators, Landspeeders/Attack bikes things like this that can , hopefully, move fast and hit hard, perhaps from a direction the enemy wasn't quite expecting (like a shark :)) any tips? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Although most probably won't agree with me, I run a land speeder storm w/ Multi-Melta, with 5 scouts w/ CCW's and the Sgt. rockin a power fist. A great headhunter unit, or a tank buster in a pinch, I've had nothing but good luck with these guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Although most probably won't agree with me, I run a land speeder storm w/ Multi-Melta, with 5 scouts w/ CCW's and the Sgt. rockin a power fist. A great headhunter unit, or a tank buster in a pinch, I've had nothing but good luck with these guys. i use two of these with added combi-melta and meltabombs to boot, but as for solid hard hitters bikers and speeders are always good choices. having the movemtn really helps too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan249 Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 That's what I usually task my LR + Termies to. It's a cliche solution for a reason. Either that, or Vanguard very lightly tooled up (2 storm shields, 2~3 power weapons, 1~2 power fists, 10 guys) to hit horde-type enemies harder. TH/SS provide 15 I1 S8 attacks on the charge. DLC provide 20 I4 S4 attacks on the charge that reroll to wound, not too shabby. A mix of these two provide some versatility. 10 Vanguard in the minimal configuration I list up there provide 35 I4 S4 attacks on the charge, 8 of which are powered, followed by 3 I1 S8 attacks. Useful for general purpose anti-infantry, not so much against MCs and vehicles though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norngahl Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 I run a mech gunline, so my favourite Counter-Attack-Units are Landspeeder with MM/HF combination for tanks and mobs and TH/SS termis in a LR for MC or elites (or something, that needs to be locked away in combat). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 The suggestions above are good ones. A vanilla assault squad with jump packs can happily hop over your gun line to counter an incoming charge as well. Vanguard with jump packs and only one model with a power fist can also surprise you with it's counter-charge hitting power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 The suggestions above are good ones. A vanilla assault squad with jump packs can happily hop over your gun line to counter an incoming charge as well. Vanguard with jump packs and only one model with a power fist can also surprise you with it's counter-charge hitting power. agreed, especially about vanguard, the big worry is that like spartan above 10 Vanguard in the minimal configuration I list up there provide 35 I4 S4 attacks on the charge, 8 of which are powered, followed by 3 I1 S8 attacks. Useful for general purpose anti-infantry, not so much against MCs and vehicles though. its a 300-400 point unit, that is overkill IMO.. you want just enough kill that doesnt cost too much.. assault marines are excellent as a counter unit, anything they charge has liely been softened a little first Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowstalker Grim Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Im really liking the sound of that scout unit! How does it tend to perform on the battlefield? What kind of targets do you use it to take out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaplain belisarius Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 captain with relic blade, leading a chainsword, pistol armed command squad (with 2 meltas!) and possibly a pair of dreadnoughts...if points allow! keeps the enemy off of my firing line well enough...<_< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Sternguard.... what? Viable unit for counter-attacks, your counter-attacking units don't need to be in close combat. If I feel the need to I'll keep my Sternguard back behind my other units, and when my enemy shows his hand I'll drive them forward and hit them with a bucket load of firepower. There's not many foes a volley of concentrated firepower from Sternguard can't handle. Now if it were counter-assault we'd be talking about different things. For assault units, I feel Hammernators are too powerful and dangerous to be dedicated counter-attack, they should be charging headlong. Normal Terminators, however, can be quite good, and a Dread with DCCW was a favourite of mine. Assault Marines and combat Command squads also make good counter-attack, basically anything that doesn't cost a premium in points and can dish out the hurt. Furthermore, if some part of it can do damage from range that makes it better. So with Terminators think a Crusader (if Assault) or cyclone missile launchers. Or a TL-LC on a Dreadnought. Most of the time I'd prefer a counter-attack unit that can do things in all aspects of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Big surprise incoming; I'm about to support Vanguard as a viable choice. When I build my Vanguard, I always use the following formula: - At least as many marines without weapon upgrades as there are marines with weapon upgrades. - At least one power fist; probably no more than one power fist. - Single lightning claws and bolt pistols for "weapon upgrades" (no bonus attack for pistol, but you get the shot on the way in, and putting two LCs on a veteran with one wound is a dangerous point sink). - At least two models with storm shields and bolt pistols (again, shot on the way in) Here is my favorite configuration: - Serg w/ power fist. - 2-3 vets with single lightning claws + bolt pistols. - 1-2 vets with storm shields - 3-4 vets with no upgrades Note that I do not give them jump packs. I almost always stick them in a LRR with extra armor which lets me deploy them from pretty reliable safety right into the thick of it. The veterans with no upgrades are there to take armor saves, reducing the chances a vet with an upgrade will fail a wound save (ablative wounds). The storm shields are there to help mitigate stray AP2 shots at the Vanguard when they're taking fire and to possibly prevent a power fist/weapon from pasting a member of the squad. Statistically a single lighting claw is strictly better than a power sword, and it looks way cooler to me, so I use them almost exclusively. My typical IC is a librarian with Unleashed Rage (preferred enemy), letting the squad re-roll its hits (and wounds in the case of the claws)...but if you use the vanilla dex, a budget chaplain will pack the same punch. I use them in one of two roles depending on the game I'm playing (opponent, table, scenario): - Shock troops: bury them deep and surgically remove a unit or two that are a problem, like a sternguard, command squad. - Counterstrike: these guys will tear through any mob unit that was able to survive rapid-fire volleys and is poised to charge my gun-line in it's next turn. Let me address now some common dismissals of such a unit: - The Land Raider does not make it too expensive or really double it's cost; the thing is an asset in it's own right. It's huge so it can block LOS and with AV14 it soaks a lot of fire power. I favor the Redeemer for fluff reasons (and I also enjoy marine flambé) but a LRC has the equivalent firepower of a full tactical squad. I've blown guns off of enemy land raiders with it's assault cannon. I love that thing. - Vanguards have some advantages over terminator squads: they can perform Sweeping Advances; they can be more numerous a bit more cheaply, allowing them to spread out more and multi-assault in more situations than their heavily armored brethren; because they can equip bolt pistols, they can effectively land more attacks on their target (when you count their pre-assault shooting with their hits upon impact). - Almost all "they're way too expensive" arguments are based upon the misconception that every vanguard vet gets an upgrade or two. Don't upgrade them all. Follow my formula above and you'll get a well-balanced, effective vanguard that will land a healthy mix of power weapon attacks and vanilla face punches. If you're still uncertain, try fielding an assault squad as a Vanguard next time you play. See how it feels to land forty vanilla face punches on a unit on your charge. You'll make your neighborhood ork players jealous that you - like them - are counting your attacks in dice cubes but - unlike them - you have power armor. Lately I've been experimenting with Sternguard (instead of Vanguard) and I have to say I really enjoy them too. Their ammo makes them versatile and very effective anti-infantry in their own right. In almost all applications I feel I could do as much or more damage with a Vanguard, but the Sternguard 1. doesn't put itself in as much risk as the Vanguard doing so, and 2. the Sternguard has Hellfire rounds, which are *awesome*. Sternguard are very much a scalpel; Vanguard can be either a scalpel or a hammer as needed. I like them both, but I wouldn't take both in any list below 2250-2500 points (i.e. Hardboyz level). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan249 Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 10 Vanguard in the minimal configuration I list up there provide 35 I4 S4 attacks on the charge, 8 of which are powered, followed by 3 I1 S8 attacks. Useful for general purpose anti-infantry, not so much against MCs and vehicles though. its a 300-400 point unit, that is overkill IMO.. you want just enough kill that doesnt cost too much.. assault marines are excellent as a counter unit, anything they charge has liely been softened a little first Vanguard Veteran Squad: 10 marines, 2 Pweapons, 1 Pfist, 2 Sshields - 270 points Little less than 300. Not bad, considering what kind of carnage I've seen this squad put out, especially when I stick a Chaplain in them (Chaplain's only in the list when I'm not doing 4 or more dreads and breaking character). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 mea culpa i read it as 8 power weapons, you meant 8 PW attacks... a base assault squad is about 220 points with a fist and some flamers, so i suppose the extra 50 points for the 2 extra PWs and extra attack per model is reasonable.. i personally still favour the assault squad, those flamers are awesome, even against marines can cause multiple casualties Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 I like me Honour Guard, but who didn't see that coming eh? <_< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 I like me Honour Guard, but who didn't see that coming eh? <_< yeah, big shocker.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LardO'Blood Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Well, in my Deathwing army, everything is a counter attack unit... In C:SM I like sternguard with some combi weapons and a power fist or tactical terminators with a CF and AC. Good for tank busting, providing a midfield boost and some CC head smashing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodWulf Posted February 21, 2011 Author Share Posted February 21, 2011 I like me Honour Guard, but who didn't see that coming eh? :rolleyes: I was looking at these guys too, but I hope that they will be in the enemies lines ripping them apart rather than not. Thanks for the great tips! I should have clarified that this counter attack unit wont just hang back and wait to counter attack but rather stay "in the area" of the objective holding Tacs and come in to thelp when the SHTF so to speak. I think Assault Marines might be able to pull this off, and as I already have a squad of 10 these guys might be the ticket....until I can get some Vets of one kind or another and some Land Speeders! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Jump marines are good for this purpose due to their increased mobility. Their one short-coming is their lack of transport, exposing them to anti-infantry fire. You can stick them in a LR, or even a Rhino for your purpose: just park the Rhino on that objective with the Tacticals...they'll have a 2" disembark + 6" move + 6" assault = 14" threat range. Mind positioning of the Rhino though. Without jump packs they'll have to move around crap (scenery, the tac squad) and if they're in crowded quarters the Rhino can be a liability (if between scenery, your scoring squad, and their assaulting unit they manage to surround the Rhino, popping the Rhino = they die. It's rare, but something to keep in mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodWulf Posted February 21, 2011 Author Share Posted February 21, 2011 I am actually contemplating throwing the Chaplain in with these lads so that they hit even harder. Makes the unit expensive but should be good at what they do. They can be the counter attack in some situations or the tip of the spear in others.....maybe its too many points and a waste of an HQ? And if I do this what do I take as HQ #2? At some point it will have to be Tyberos so I can get the goodies of the Carcharodons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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