The True Astartes

[Dinks]

Well said Vincent. :(

[Stoneface]

Vincent, i compleatly understand all you'r points and agree with most as well. As in regard to having the Space Marine just following orders, well that's giving him an excuse, which isn't what the peice is about. As for an explanation of his actions, i hint that the children offended him spiritually, a reference to the pycho-indoctronation which space marines under go which, in my oppinion, and the oppinon i have expressed in this peice, forces them to see the galaxy in a very black and white mannor. I admit perhaps, that the use of the Ultramarines rubs up against some canon, however since the peice was intended to make people actually think about the actions Space Marines committ it served my purpose.

[Dinks]

Will you write more peices Stoneface? I hope so!

[Vincent Black Shadow]

If you've made those choices, then that's fine. As a reader, though, I prefer to have these things hinted at more forcefully. As I read it, the space marine kills them for no apparent reason, though the guardsman makes some guesses. If there is a reason, it needs to be spelled out for the reader, if not for the guardsman, IMO.

 

Some good writing though, you definitely have some skill. :(

[Darkchild130]

pretty sure every race that was exterminated in the great crusade for not succumbing to the Emperor's control or exhibiting some minor 'divergance' or 'mutation' had children.

 

The Imperium has become LESS tolerant since then. I dont need an individual example, its obvious.

 

And Vincent, aside from the Salamanders (who are known for their unusually humanitarian ways), your examples are of 2 chapters whining, as opposed to actually doing anything about the innocents dying.

Complaining about killing a world and the systematic murder of your own troops are worlds apart from shooting some possibly tainted kids.

 

To analyze further. These children, assuming they are not tainted (which in the Inperial point of view will be no chance as they are the children of a 'rebel'), will grow up to be menials at best, eking out a pointless existence unnoticed by anyone (like 99% of all imperial citizens).

Even if they join the Guard, not being nobles by birth they will acheive nothing.

Now assume they are tainted, all it takes is one heretical thought to spark an uprising (possibly as a result of their mother dying if nothing else) these children could possibly start a future civil war.

 

Now the absolutely paranoid nature of the Imperium is a known quantity, as is the lack of worth it places in individual lives.

Considering these factors, and the fact that the Imperium is focussed on destroying risks (instead of hoping it turns out ok), you can see these kids never stood a chance.

It simply isn't worth keeping them alive.

 

Darkchild

[Vincent Black Shadow]

Okay. :tu:

[GooseDaMoose]

i challenge you to show me examples of ulotramarines killing unarmed children..

 

.. counter me with actual fluff...

 

The First Heretic, they bomb the shindiggity out of Monarchia, and that one Ultramarine even cruelly tells that chick to look back while they do it so she is blinded.

 

Uriel Ventris is no doubt a noble, chivalrous, fairytale prince charming but you can't expect EVERY one of them to be. Furthermore, their orders in the story are to "scour" and remove threats on a rebel moon. The entire world has become rebellious, I don't think it's too unlikely that they would, indeed, scour the hostile area.

 

It could also be that another Ultramarine would leave the children alone, it's down to the individual innit. As it was, in this story there was an Ultramarine who took his orders a bit more literally, maybe he was annoyed at having to perform such a boring and "low-risk" operation (no honour or glory) and jumped at an opportunity to show his zealousness, freaking out his Imperial Guard buddy.

 

This view works with Space Marines being cold-blooded killers, but could also work with the super emotional and cliché characters (one's bloodthirsty, one's noble and one's wise) that most Space Marines are described as in BL books. Whichever view you like more, be it McNeill's portrayal or other more grimdark portrayals, this story could work with both.

 

Now, that being said, I agree that the Space Marine is almost robotic in his actions.

[Dorns Padawan]

I have read all the posts very carefully & choose my words as equally carful as not to add fuel to the flame. First off, it is a well written piece IMO. I like it as it is how I see the 41st millennium, dark, gritty & very medieval but in a sic-fi setting. I can actually relate it to modern times (the My Lai massacre springs to mind regarding the content within this story).

 

Assuming another chapter like the Flesh Tearers had in fact killed the children, would this debate have raged on as much? My personal view on the short piece is that having read the piece several times over before deciding to add my thoughts, is that the story is purely the view of the officer. Had for example it been the view on an Inquisitor and not a Guard officer, the Inquisitor would have possibly worded it that as 'only the guilty hide'. The story was simply the officers own views.

 

I personally view an Astartes (from any chapter) as similar to Matt Damon's Jason Bourne character before he suffered amnesia - this was a guy who did not think about who he killed as he was psycho-conditioned in a way to be a hardened killer without question or remorse.

 

Hope that makes sense.

[Demoulius]

i like :woot: shows (in my eyes at least) how brutaly effective space marines are. :tu:

[Darkchild130]

Assuming another chapter like the Flesh Tearers had in fact killed the children, would this debate have raged on as much? My personal view on the short piece is that having read the piece several times over before deciding to add my thoughts, is that the story is purely the view of the officer. Had for example it been the view on an Inquisitor and not a Guard officer, the Inquisitor would have possibly worded it that as 'only the guilty hide'. The story was simply the officers own views.

 

If the Flesh Tearers were there, the Guardsman's nephew would have never received the letter <_<

 

Darkchild

[greatcrusade08]

The First Heretic, they bomb the shindiggity out of Monarchia, and that one Ultramarine even cruelly tells that chick to look back while they do it so she is blinded.

sorry was this supposed to be a claim of ultras shooting unarmed children, becuase it doesnt come close.. the woman in question was a proven heretic and cause of the worlds demise..

 

Uriel Ventris is no doubt a noble, chivalrous, fairytale prince charming but you can't expect EVERY one of them to be. Furthermore, their orders in the story are to "scour" and remove threats on a rebel moon. The entire world has become rebellious, I don't think it's too unlikely that they would, indeed, scour the hostile area.

ventris is a 'good guy' character, but it wasnt his character that gave him those opinions, it was his teachings.. as has been mentioned he was a little off the beaten track in regards to being an ultramarine...

now learchus, theres a true ultramarine.

 

i realise that i seem to be the only one arguing this side, and to be honest im not getting anywhere so i wont post here again.

but i have to reiterate, all you have is opinions, prove to me (via quotes) that the ultramarines would kill unarmed children and ill believe you.

in the mean time your opinions have little basis in fact

[GooseDaMoose]

Good God man why is it so hard to accept that ONE Ultramarine would do that?

 

It's a rebel moon! I just.. this is so bizarre man. I understand that Ultramarines get a lot of hate, and as a result some Ultramarine players might be extra on the look-out for people trying to diss their legion and therefore also have a certain fierce pride in defending their chapter. Sure.

 

But it's not completely and wildly unbelievable that even a Courageous and Honourable chapter has one, ONE SINGLE MARINE that takes his orders a little bit too zelously. Dayum.

[Stoneface]

Well hopefully this debate will die down soon, seriously though i'd like to thank everyone who read it, i'm pleased its caused a wee amount of controversy although this massive argument is probably going a little too far. to answer someone who asked if i was going to do anything else, i'm tempted to write more 1st person memoir style stuff, as i'm a massive Flashman fan.

[Crimson Fisting]

Forum arguments are the best! :)

[Demoulius]

GC08 please man, its a fictional universe. and whats been posted here are opinions.

 

opinions by their very definition cant be incorrect, nor can they be right for that matter.

 

opinions are something very personal and if you dont agree with one, thats fine but to ask for proof to see if they are correct?

 

noone here needs to prove anything to voice their opinion...

 

he wrote a story about an UM who killed people he hes been indoctrinated to see as heretics and/or hostiles.

 

dont like it, then go right ahead and ignore the rest of the topic. do like it, leave a reply stating that and dont look back.

 

but please, stop debating over proof over an opinion. no such thing excists....

[GooseDaMoose]

Forum arguments are the best! :)

 

INTERNET ARGUMENTS FOR THE INTERNET GOD! B)

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Dem - I said that already, no one listened.

[Demoulius]

Dem - I said that already, no one listened.

beg pardon sir! was only trying to help :)

[Dinks]

Well hopefully this debate will die down soon, seriously though i'd like to thank everyone who read it, i'm pleased its caused a wee amount of controversy although this massive argument is probably going a little too far. to answer someone who asked if i was going to do anything else, i'm tempted to write more 1st person memoir style stuff, as i'm a massive Flashman fan.

Flashman is fantastic, yet to read all of them but i have the full set!

 

Look forward to more of your writing!

[Monstra Sumus]

I enjoyed the OP's work. Very well done, even better with the added help of editing. I hope you do more.

 

The debate - Want to carry it on? Go start a topic where you can all throw posts at each other, don't bog down someone's work with your arguments. I'm sure Stone doesn't appreciate it. I wouldn't.

[Gree]

According the to 3rd Edition Space Marine codex all space marines are pretty much cold killers, they are a last resort and once you call for their aid they will wipe out all enemies, objectors and even undesirables.

 

Are you talking about the White Panthers? That's more one Inqusitor's view of that chapter.

 

Also in the back of that codex it gives a 24 hour Space Marine routine, FOR ALL space marines, which is basically made up of pro-Imperial indoctronation and combat.

 

No, that doesn't apply to all Space Marines. Take for example the Space Wolves.

 

U'r evidence comes from a novel written by a guy who wants the Ultramarines to be amazing, and perhaps choosing ultramarines was a controversial choice on my part, however the codex backs me up, certainly the 3rd ed one.

 

McNeill also wrote the 4th edition Codex. The same one that portrayed the Astartes as ''shining knights'' going off the 4th edition designer notes.

[greatcrusade08]

GC08 please man, its a fictional universe. and whats been posted here are opinions.

 

opinions by their very definition cant be incorrect, nor can they be right for that matter.

 

opinions are something very personal and if you dont agree with one, thats fine but to ask for proof to see if they are correct?

 

noone here needs to prove anything to voice their opinion...

 

he wrote a story about an UM who killed people he hes been indoctrinated to see as heretics and/or hostiles.

 

dont like it, then go right ahead and ignore the rest of the topic. do like it, leave a reply stating that and dont look back.

 

but please, stop debating over proof over an opinion. no such thing excists....

 

this is contradictory nonesense.

first off in a fictional universe there are only facts or fiction in terms of background material, you guys are expressing opinions based on your own views of how things are.. im saying those opinions are wrong without supporting material to suggest its possible.

the notion that opinions are neither correct or incorrect is silly, and tbh one of the many arguments you guys are making to allow yourselves to feel vindicated.

 

your opinions are about background material, and as such are either correct or incorrect, stop dreaming.

i get a little tired of people claiming im being overly protective of ultramarines, its hardly the case... i get tired of people claiming things that have no proof.

i suppose if you cant attack my arguments, you have little choice but to attack me instead... its very very sad!

 

like it or not this is about background material, and despite being so many people on the counter side of this argument, not one of you has supplied any quotes that suggest an ultramarine has killed unarmed children.. its all about "what if one went rogue"

its entirely possible for an ultramarine to fall to chaos, but in terms of a normal ultramarine this story is factually incorrect.. you cant claim this one ultramarine was acting differently, when the story is showing the reader this is 'normal' behaviour in order to make the reader 'judge' the superhuman marines.

if you want to solve this argument, change the chapter to one who doesnt care about citizenry

 

U'r evidence comes from a novel written by a guy who wants the Ultramarines to be amazing, and perhaps choosing ultramarines was a controversial choice on my part, however the codex backs me up, certainly the 3rd ed one.

 

McNeill also wrote the 4th edition Codex. The same one that portrayed the Astartes as ''shining knights'' going off the 4th edition designer notes.

the guys motives are not important, any material wirtten and approved by GW is infact canon, im ashowing examples of how ultramarines act, your giving me examples ofhow marines in general act, even though we know every chapter is wildy different.

canon is important when dealing with a fictional universe no-one can truelly understand, if anyone tries to claim they know what a SM is thinking they are kidding themselves.. you need support from background material to back up opinions

[Brother Ragnil]

Innocence proves nothing.

 

I think this pretty much sums any argument against the marine's actions up.

 

@Stoneface: What a great reminder of what I first saw marines as. I find that in the current setting the idea of marines to new players (like myself) is turning into something of a grittier version of Superman (slight exaggeration, but you get the point). In truth, who knows what the marine was thinking as he eliminated the woman and her children? The whole point of the story was to see the Imperium's greatest warriors through the eyes of a non-Astartes. To me it showcases that marines are able to perform actions that normally regular forces and guardsmen could not: I'll call it "cleansing without remorse". The marine did what needed to be done, and even if he did regret it, he wouldn't let that affect his judgment on the fact that it needed to be done. Although I have to agree with some of the earlier posts on the narrator being stationed with the marine on purpose: it would seem more appropriate that they ended up together somehow, but since you've already made revisions, you're free to digest/discard this as you please <_< . Again though, nice work!

[Lone Scout]

I'm wading in again. Firstly the Jason Bourne movie...dude did you watch it...he got stuffed up because he failed to kill his mark because his (the marks) kid was on his marks lap...so much for the phyco conditioning theory. (how many kids did Jason Bourne kill...none...why...because he was the good guy...good guys don't kill kids)

If you want to think that your marines sit around everyday praying, shooting going to "how to kill heretics seminars" then thats fine but surely they have better things to do. Marines enjoy eating, they appreciate beauty and reward kindness (read the spacewolf novels by King) so to my mind this proves they are not heartless, conditioned automatons.

3rdly marines are there to protect humanity, that is why they exist.

 

Now I KNOW I'm not an expert so I took the liberty of enlisting the help of someone who is. (no I won't post the email cause people expect that correspondance isn't quoted so I will paraphrase it).

I emailed Mr Graham McNeill and he states that a spacemarine would not kill unarmed civilians and never children and certainly not UM's. Further more you would never see this in a BL publication...the fluff is well off base.

(ask yourself why....because the good guys don't kill children grim dark, medieval whatever...it's like cannon law..goodies are goodies for a reason...when they stop being goodies they become badies...this and because infantcide to any normal human being is offensive it doesn't sell novels).

 

Before you all McNeill this and he wreaked that bare in mind that he does write for BL and you do not. He would be more able to say what a marine would and would not do than almost all of us here (any GW/BL writters please raise your hands).

 

Lastly it doesn't do any of you credit to attack another forum members ethics, personality or ideals. If you are getting ticked off...walk out scream, swear, get a drink or two calm down and post when your not angry. (I need to take this advise myself :wub: ) Honestly though I am totally jealous of Stoneface's writting ability. No one reads my garbage and argues about it...and never on and on for 5 pages or more.

[greatcrusade08]

Now I KNOW I'm not an expert so I took the liberty of enlisting the help of someone who is. (no I won't post the email cause people expect that correspondance isn't quoted so I will paraphrase it).

I emailed Mr Graham McNeill and he states that a spacemarine would not kill unarmed civilians and never children and certainly not UM's. Further more you would never see this in a BL publication...the fluff is well off base.

(ask yourself why....because the good guys don't kill children grim dark, medieval whatever...it's like cannon law..goodies are goodies for a reason...when they stop being goodies they become badies...this and because infantcide to any normal human being is offensive it doesn't sell novels).

 

Thanks lone scout, youve been the only one to support my position, i figured mcneill had that stance, but you went the extra step and spoke to him personally..

full credit to you.

BL is canon, despite peoples counter arguments that its not... its supported by GW therefore it stands.

 

Before you all McNeill this and he wreaked that bare in mind that he does write for BL and you do not. He would be more able to say what a marine would and would not do than almost all of us here (any GW/BL writters please raise your hands).

Exactly, although some chapters blur the lines between good and bad, ultras do not

 

Lastly it doesn't do any of you credit to attack another forum members ethics, personality or ideals. If you are getting ticked off...walk out scream, swear, get a drink or two calm down and post when your not angry. (I need to take this advise myself :blush: ) Honestly though I am totally jealous of Stoneface's writting ability. No one reads my garbage and argues about it...and never on and on for 5 pages or more.

 

i agree, i think ive largely behaved myself in this thread, but do apologise to anyone who took particvular offense to any of my comments, nothing i said has been written to offend any one individual.

that said despite liking the writing, my original criticism was one of the content and background material, ultras wouldnt kill children.

i thought i had been relatively polite about it, but my opinion has been jumped on and attacked by several of the members here.

not only hacve they attacked my post, but my motives, myself and one memebr even brought my kids into a personal dig...

thats really bad form fellas.