The True Astartes

[Wolf Priest Haelaeif]

I'm actually more sorry that a thread about a great short story turned into a discussion like this. I still find the idea that there were good guys in 40k silly. Space marines just don't stand up to any of the expectations of good guys for me, not even the marines in McNeill's novels. They kill people. They even commit genocide. In the name of a fascist empire. Where the hell are they good guys?

 

How can people who kill on a daily basis be the good guys to you?

[Firenze]

I myself see astartes being more automaton killers in combat, but almost human out of it.

 

When I read this first, I thought the chapter wasnt named. Reading it again, Ultras wouldnt do that, not without a direct order. Honour is a powerful thing. It just doesnt fit ultramarines.

[Lone Scout]

I'm actually more sorry that a thread about a great short story turned into a discussion like this. I still find the idea that there were good guys in 40k silly. Space marines just don't stand up to any of the expectations of good guys for me, not even the marines in McNeill's novels. They kill people. They even commit genocide. In the name of a fascist empire. Where the hell are they good guys?

 

How can people who kill on a daily basis be the good guys to you?

Lets see Australian, British, New Zealand, American and many other troops fighting in ww2. Police officers having to shoot someone (not that they do it evryday but they live with that possiblity everyday).

Now here comes the sin of relitivity, if you were a german soldier during ww2 you'd have a different opinion ( there were heroic actions and mateship on both sides but history is written by the victors and absolutly am I in no way saying germans are baddies...oh god pm me for a tale about a german nanny ) :tu:

or a drug selling gangsta perhaps.

Back to 40k? ok terra is a fascist empire but what are the alternatives...chaos, dark eldar, necrons. If your a marine/impy guard /Inq player...then marines are the good guys. Yes they come to blows, more so the game can function than for serious fluff reasons. There are goodies and badies ask a templar player...they are the goodies and everyone else is the badies :blush: If your a Tau player (more acuratly veiwing the imperium from a Tau perspective) then marines would be the baddies cause they are trying to kill you. Game = goodie vrs baddies...cowboy indian, cop and robber

[Wolf Priest Haelaeif]

The alternative is to not kill. Also, saving your friend by killing someone else, in my ethics, still makes you a bad guy.

[Dinks]

The alternative is to not kill. Also, saving your friend by killing someone else, in my ethics, still makes you a bad guy.

That is a pretty disgusting view to be fair. One that many many many people will have issues with (probably about 99.9% of humanity) and to be honest it is not one you can really comment on unless you have been in a situation like that. I am sure you would kill to protect your family or even friends.

[Wolf Priest Haelaeif]

The alternative is to not kill. Also, saving your friend by killing someone else, in my ethics, still makes you a bad guy.

That is a pretty disgusting view to be fair. One that many many many people will have issues with, and to be honest it is not one you can really comment on unless you have been in a situation like that. I am sure you would kill to protect your family or even friends.

 

Hm. You may have misunderstood me, because I didn't name the context. I am not a pacifist. I was referring to his WWII examples. I would, if necessary, kill to protect myself or family or friends. But I will not actively put myself in a situation where this is necessary. Any soldier will by definition have assented to being put into situations of kill or be killed. And that means that he actively sought a situation where he had to kill someone in order to live. Which to me is the same as planning to kill someone without necessity.

 

Therefore, a heroic act by a soldier protecting his comrades by killing someone is, imo, still an evil act.

 

With people who are drafted into the military, it is arguable, and it also is with police, because it is not the job of the police to kill people, it only happens that they may, in rare cases, have to protect themselves when trying to arrest someone. But people who willingly join the military cannot, in my book, be good guys.

 

Edit: Damn. I am still doing it. I am arguing with the internet. I am an idiot. Forgive me.

[Darkchild130]

Its a new day and my nerdrage has perished.

 

I'd just like to say well done to the Author again for writing a powerful piece of fiction, which carried more weight in its short space than any of my bolter death style ever could.

 

I'm not gushing or anything, I just liked it :no:

 

Darkchild

[Demoulius]

greatcrusade08 Posted Today, 08:17 AM

 

QUOTE (Demoulius @ Feb 22 2011, 10:26 PM) *

GC08 please man, its a fictional universe. and whats been posted here are opinions.

 

opinions by their very definition cant be incorrect, nor can they be right for that matter.

 

opinions are something very personal and if you dont agree with one, thats fine but to ask for proof to see if they are correct?

 

noone here needs to prove anything to voice their opinion...

 

he wrote a story about an UM who killed people he hes been indoctrinated to see as heretics and/or hostiles.

 

dont like it, then go right ahead and ignore the rest of the topic. do like it, leave a reply stating that and dont look back.

 

but please, stop debating over proof over an opinion. no such thing excists....

 

this is contradictory nonesense.

first off in a fictional universe there are only facts or fiction in terms of background material, you guys are expressing opinions based on your own views of how things are.. im saying those opinions are wrong without supporting material to suggest its possible.

the notion that opinions are neither correct or incorrect is silly, and tbh one of the many arguments you guys are making to allow yourselves to feel vindicated.

 

your opinions are about background material, and as such are either correct or incorrect, stop dreaming.

i get a little tired of people claiming im being overly protective of ultramarines, its hardly the case... i get tired of people claiming things that have no proof.

i suppose if you cant attack my arguments, you have little choice but to attack me instead... its very very sad!

 

like it or not this is about background material, and despite being so many people on the counter side of this argument, not one of you has supplied any quotes that suggest an ultramarine has killed unarmed children.. its all about "what if one went rogue"

its entirely possible for an ultramarine to fall to chaos, but in terms of a normal ultramarine this story is factually incorrect.. you cant claim this one ultramarine was acting differently, when the story is showing the reader this is 'normal' behaviour in order to make the reader 'judge' the superhuman marines.

if you want to solve this argument, change the chapter to one who doesnt care about citizenry

so wait, let me get this straight. my opinion is wrong because this is a fictional universe we are talking about and i have no proof on the matter? do you even know what FICTIONAL means?

 

i am dreaming because my opinion isent based of proof from a fictional universe....hmmm ok.

 

just a quik response to that.....

 

this is what 2 seconds of google search found:

opinion - definition

* a personal belief or judgment that is not founded on proof or certainty; "my opinion differs from yours"; "I am not of your persuasion"; "what are your thoughts on Haiti?"

 

added the bolded parts here.

 

and heres 5 more that i found after searching some more:

1. judgment or belief not founded on certainty or proof

2. the prevailing or popular feeling or view public opinion

3. evaluation, impression, or estimation of the value or worth of a person or thing

4. an evaluation or judgment given by an expert a medical opinion

5. (Law) the advice given by a barrister or counsel on a case submitted to him or her for a view on the legal points involved

 

seems there are several ways to interpret opinion here. personal opinion (the one not needing any proof) and the public opinion (one that would)

 

when people are talking about their own feelings about a subject they dont need to defend it. but it seems GC08 wants the proof to see the standpoint defended for the public opinion. if i understand this right anyway...

 

*shrugs* with that out of the way. even if i were talking about public opinion (or any other people here for that matter) thats still hardly a reason to call what we say a lie. you are pulling a non-background source (black library) and using that to prove that it is infact background. which is arbitrary bull :cuss becuase quite frankly, the only difference between this piece of fluff and a black library novel is that they are paid by black library (sub contractor to GW) to write stories about their toy products. ever heard of fan fiction? that is it...

 

and for the fact that your not defending ultramarines? sorry but if someone would spout such defiance in my vicinity and then proceed to say hes not a zealot to his cause (UM in this case) id laugh in his face. you got your panties in a twist because your chapter is portrayed at killing a non-combatant. the non-combatant is a child and in a space station run by heretics. the threat is thus there that he is tainted as well. fact that they were hiding proves nothing either. the UM had standing orders to purge any heretics or other threats he came across and he did so, with brutal effeciancy.

 

is it the UM way? maybe, maybe not. is the UM way to let heretics live (no matter what their age) to pose any further threats to the IoM? dont think so either. in this case its a grey area on what a marine would do. same goes for an UM. in this piece of fluff he choose not to take any chances. seems like a sensible thing to do within the context that this story is written.

 

if you cant agree with that, fine. but dont tell people they are wrong because they arent proving you a thing they dont even have to prove you. were not in a court here...

[Brother Ragnil]

In re-examining the short story again, and solely thinking about the text, hopefully this may clear up arguments:

 

Dear Nephew,

 

Have you ever seen an Astartes in the flesh? They are nothing like the picts, no gun ho “go get em’ boys” and “avenge me lads”! That is all nonsense. I have seen them as they truly are. They are terrifying: and it is not their strength, their size, and impenetrable armour or devastating weapons which scare me, but their inhumanity. In battle they do not talk, only bark streams of relevant tactical data, ++Cassius. Sweep qu.3411 yes?++ and ++acknowledged. Julius Sweep qu.3411 yes, engage with sabot++. They analyze the battlefield and judge how best to kill the enemy. As an Imperial Officer, I am under no illusion that men under fire aren’t poets, they don’t philosophise about life, or the enemy, they just try to stay alive and try to kill. But even guardsmen shout, scream, swear and even, when danger is past, laugh. The Adeptus Astartes do no such thing; they are killers plain and simple.

 

I will relate to you an anecdote, from my time serving as a regimental attachment to the Ultramarines 3rd Company 1st strike force, when the company accepted a request to put down a revolt on one of the moons of Ilesh, or Elice, or something to that effect. During such low risk operations it is not unusual for individual marines to pair off to better rout out the enemy, and it is to one such marine I attached myself. As we scoured an abandoned manufactum a crazed women leapt from the shadows at the marine, she was unarmed, but banged her fists against his armour, in an instant he grabbed her and broke her neck. Dropping her he paused; he must have heard something I did not, for he walked over to a sheet of plasteel and pulled it away, revealing three dishevelled children, ranging from around six to twelve years. Perhaps the women had been their mother? I only had a moment to see the wretches however, for they were pulverised by the marine’s bolter in an instant. I remember being routed to the spot, stunned, whilst the marine calmly turned around and stalked off, declaring ++sector 42 clear. Redirect?++ . But what were those children’s crimes? Were they a physical threat? No, they were not; perhaps the Astartes had perceived them as a spiritual one however? It served to be a lesson, do not treat a marine as a human being, for he is not, he is a saviour, a killer, a dog of war. But if you treat him as a human, you are only inviting disappointment and horror. Perhaps the Adeptus are heroic; perhaps they do save each other from the jaws of monsters and jest as they do it. But I have not seen such in my four years attachment.

 

Forgive these heretical thoughts Nephew, I should be congratulating you on your colonelcy, but as you are to be operating in the Ultramar system yourself, these are thoughts you should be acquainted with.

 

 

So once again, I think the main point to take away here is that the story is in the viewpoint of the imperial officer. Since the woman ran up to the marine and began to bang on his armor, it is assumed in the text he treats that as a hostile threat, regardless of weapon, and so terminates her. And as for the killing of the children, the officer said he only had a moment to see them before the marine dispatched of them as well. So there is a lot of ambiguity in the story, which works to its favor regarding a lone viewpoint of an Astartes warrior. And while an Ultramarine wouldn't apparently kill an innocent, unarmed civilian (maybe it can be revised to a non-Ultra Chapter), sensing the ambiguity of the story, and that the officer only saw the children for a brief moment, perhaps there was something the marine sensed that the narrator didn't/could not, due to the "hearing something [he] did not". But since this story is all in the context of the officer, the marines' actions may not have been as harsh as he, the officer, perceived them to be. Just another way of looking at it :cuss

[greatcrusade08]

seems there are several ways to interpret opinion here. personal opinion (the one not needing any proof) and the public opinion (one that would)

your arguing my case here fella..

 

an opinion on how good looking someone is is a personal one, becuase its objective, but an opinion based on a fictional universe is a public opinion..

you cant say i think ultramarines kill children and cast it as a personal opinion, becuase its not.. this fictional universe has a tonne of documented background and your giving a view on whether swomething is possible..

im telling you it wasnt possible..

 

when people are talking about their own feelings about a subject they dont need to defend it. but it seems GC08 wants the proof to see the standpoint defended for the public opinion. if i understand this right anyway...

Dont grandstand here buddy it doesnt serve you, if you want to reply to me as you did above, then dont talk about me in the next sentence.. its rude

 

as i said we arent discussing personal feelings here, but documented fluff about a joint interest, in terms of canon i was right, you guys were wrong, just seems to me you cant be the big man and walk away in defeat..

you try and argue this nonsense:

 

]

*shrugs* with that out of the way. even if i were talking about public opinion (or any other people here for that matter) thats still hardly a reason to call what we say a lie. you are pulling a non-background source (black library) and using that to prove that it is infact background. which is arbitrary bull :cuss becuase quite frankly, the only difference between this piece of fluff and a black library novel is that they are paid by black library (sub contractor to GW) to write stories about their toy products. ever heard of fan fiction? that is it...

 

This site and many others recognises BL as a source of canonical information, they are not writing fan fiction and given a little understanding on how BL authors get thier instructions (ask A-D-B to explain the process one day).

kinda shuts down your non background source statement doesnt it ;)

 

and for the fact that your not defending ultramarines? sorry but if someone would spout such defiance in my vicinity and then proceed to say hes not a zealot to his cause (UM in this case) id laugh in his face. you got your panties in a twist because your chapter is portrayed at killing a non-combatant. the non-combatant is a child and in a space station run by heretics. the threat is thus there that he is tainted as well. fact that they were hiding proves nothing either. the UM had standing orders to purge any heretics or other threats he came across and he did so, with brutal effeciancy.

 

a: i never said i wasnt defending ultramarines, i was replying to the statement that suggested i was being over defensive.. as an ultramarine player it was a factor, but moreso becuase i know ultramarines, if i knew other chapters aswell as ultras i would have made a case for those too.

whats worse is that your accusing me of being a zealot without proof on a public forum.. in this case your opinion can be mistaken for a slight on my charcter,

but i was actually vindicated by an above post showing an email from graham mcneill.. i was right to argue as vehemently as i did

so laugh all you want my friend, cuz ill be laughing last :lol:

 

if you cant agree with that, fine. but dont tell people they are wrong because they arent proving you a thing they dont even have to prove you. were not in a court here...

really? becuase IIRC it was my statement that started this whole debate.. i said an ultramarine would never kill a child and shown examples of how they think (from a BL book)

it was the counter arguments that called me the liar (so to speak).. so technically it is down to you guys to provide the proof that im wrong..

court or no..

 

personally i think some of you need to accept your wrong, i have been in that place myself and as strongly as i argue i never hesitate to apologise and admit defeat when im proven wrong.

guess it says more about peoples character :lol:

[Wolf Priest Haelaeif]

Do you even realize you only ever "win" because people get tired of the way you are defending your cause as though it were a religion? Does it hurt your ego when someone says he thinks UMs are not the good guys? What the hell is wrong with you?

[Demoulius]

ah, so you were talking about public opinion. my bad then, never knew such a thing excisted before i searched with my last post there.

 

still believe that if someones talking about a personal opinion he shouldnt have to prove anything. small example. if i like pie x because i think it has ingredient y in it, then thats my opinion. if pie x doesent even have ingredient y in it to begin with that still doesent make my opinion invalid (even if it would be abit silly, i might be mixing up ingredient y with ingredient z for example)

 

i have no clue what grandstanding is though, im no english major but apparently offended you in some way. appologies for that.

 

i am still of the opinion that we are not talking about public opinion at all in this case. the OP posted a (nicely written) story. people voice their opinion, say if they like or dislike and makes some changes (or he doesent) should be the end of the story.

 

instead the topic degraded into whatever UM's would do this fluffwise yes or no. even if something is written in a book people can interpret things very differently from person to person.

 

if i read a marine was pro-life id picture him as doing his duties, but saving life where he could. on a space station full of heretics though, every person not on the assault team is a target if you ask me. unless you have some diagram UM's use to decide who is a target and who isent i stand corrected.

 

on the subject of whats fluffy and what it isent. that differs from person to person as well. a few years ago when i joined it was common practice to not include BL books as canon. some people have moved away and have included them since the HH books came out. thats fine. i still refuse to see them as canon, and more as an authors interpretation of how the 40k universe looked like back then.

 

on the subject of me admiting that im wrong. you wont get one in my lifetime i assure you, because in my eyes im not wrong here. neither are you or anyone here on this board for the record. the way i see it we all misunderstood eachother and are talking about different things. at least personal opinion versus public opinion that is causing some confusion up here.

 

one can only be so "wrong" when he is discussing his favorite hobby after all.

[greatcrusade08]

Do you even realize you only ever "win" because people get tired of the way you are defending your cause as though it were a religion? Does it hurt your ego when someone says he thinks UMs are not the good guys? What the hell is wrong with you?

 

from the guy who makes personal digs at me and my kids..

 

and i won this becuase of lonescouts email to graham mcneill.. your views on this subject were wrong and you guys cant accept that.

your onkly srgument now is that im sme kind of zealot (yet more personal attacks) and that BL material is fan fiction.

 

its all very desperate.. this is me walking away vindicated..

 

quick edit for clarity and to smooth uver misunderstandings

on the subject of me admiting that im wrong. you wont get one in my lifetime i assure you, because in my eyes im not wrong here. neither are you or anyone here on this board for the record. the way i see it we all misunderstood eachother and are talking about different things. at least personal opinion versus public opinion that is causing some confusion up here.

 

one can only be so "wrong" when he is discussing his favorite hobby after all.

 

the only thing i consider right or wrong is the idea that ultramarines kill unarmed children, there are plenty of maybes involved, but it was that statement that sparked this debate.. nothing else.

in the matter of fixed canon, some things are either correct or incorrect.. i.e a space marine has 13 implants.. thats incorrect..

by 'you guys' im refrring to the opposing side of the debate (whoever that may be), so i aplogoise if you toook that as personal

[Stoneface]

Hang on, i'm genuinely impressed here, did lonescout actually e-mail graham mcneil?

[Wolf Priest Haelaeif]

What is that to be impressed about? He isn't anyone special, he isn't even good at what he does for a living.

 

@gc08: I do not know your kids, I do not make 'digs' at them. I think you have a maturity problem, and the way you emphasize how you won and how all those who did not agree with you were not only wrong but also bad sports does not really give me reason to re-evaluate that opinion. And that while you still do not seem to understand that you cannot say no to an opinion.

 

There. Now I have personally insulted you. Although wait.. no, I have merely stated an opinion. I have said that I think you have a maturity problem. Not that it is a fact. What you do is state your opinions as facts. This is probably the same problem as the above, since when you cannot differentiate between facts and opinion, saying no to an opinion becomes an understandable mistake.

[Stoneface]

Well yeah, but if Graham McNeill replied id like to know what he said. I'd also like to think that if lonescout did email him he quoted the entire thing, and didn't just give his oppionion of what i wrote.

[greatcrusade08]

Well yeah, but if Graham McNeill replied id like to know what he said. I'd also like to think that if lonescout did email him he quoted the entire thing, and didn't just give his oppionion of what i wrote.

 

IMO it was more of a banket statement that marines and in particular ultramarines dont kill unarmed children.

maybe change the chapter to one that does like a little bloodletting a BA succesor maybe?

[Demoulius]

in that case i think your better of sending a PM to lone scout. he seems to be offline (if im reading the B&C profile correctly)

 

id keep the story at is was. with context it might make some more sense

[greatcrusade08]

in that case i think your better of sending a PM to lone scout. he seems to be offline (if im reading the B&C profile correctly)

 

id keep the story at is was. with context it might make some more sense

 

maybe make them feral adults, show that they are truelly heretic

[Wolf Priest Haelaeif]

Well yeah, but if Graham McNeill replied id like to know what he said. I'd also like to think that if lonescout did email him he quoted the entire thing, and didn't just give his oppionion of what i wrote.

 

I see how that could indeed be interesting. Personally, I think in that short piece of fluff you wrote there is more depth and it shows more literary skill than anything Mr. McNeill ever managed to produce, so his opinion of your writing should actually be "Can you teach me that? Pwetty Pwease?", but I guess he would disagree with me about his own talent. ;)

[Demoulius]

or keep it as it is...

 

tbh why change the chapter? and why blood angels? blood angels only kill innocents when they are inflicted by the rage, its not like its something they do in their spare time ;)

[greatcrusade08]

or keep it as it is...

 

tbh why change the chapter? and why blood angels? blood angels only kill innocents when they are inflicted by the rage, its not like its something they do in their spare time ;)

 

some BA successors are noted as being especially bloodthirsty, flesh tearers are pretty much always enraged (exaggeration but you get my point)

[Demoulius]

false. they have a higher rate of people falling to the rage. but aside from that they arent enraged.

[greatcrusade08]

false. they have a higher rate of people falling to the rage. but aside from that they arent enraged.

 

yeah mea culpa bad choice of words, i should have said thier methods are questionable and have recieved alot of interest from the inq for thier slaughtering lots of people..

colateral damage and alkl that.

in my mind they would fit the bill quite well, but i dont know them that well..

[Demoulius]

i still think the OP should keep his story as is. no need to change it over the fact that children are supposedly killed in it. BL wont novelize it thats for sure but he can still ask for feedback on it.

 

found this while browsing the blaack library website should be able to ask for feedback that way :)