breng77 Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 Looking at what you will be fighting most often in CC, if it is S 4 that is most likely marines, against a tactical squad, you are looking at 10 or 11 attacks at the most (assuming you get the charge), which amount to 0.5 wounds. Against S3 T5 and 6 are the same. Most enemies are not swinging at S 5 (only Blood angels a really swing at this strength and then only on the charge.) I'm in no way saying Nurgle is bad, but against most opponents that Fist is going to cause the most wounds. (Even agaisnt things like Grey hunters you are looking at 15 ish attacks which will be still about 1 wound on average. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chillin Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 Do you know of any other way of playing , because all the other HQs are not viable . I don't buy that. My undivided lord w D. weap does quite well. I started using 2 DP's for a change, not b/c my chaos lord was not viable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 My undivided lord w D. weap does quite well. and by that you are already forced more to use zerkers or pms , because csm will be special weapon gimped if you add a HQ to them . by taking a lord you will also put more points in to a single unit in a rhino that can die fast[double bad if it is in a LR , because LR cost more , take a hvy slot and the chaos ones are bad] and give less targets to opposing armies . A lord is just a fluff choice not a gaming choice , a DP is just plain always better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 A lord is just a fluff choice not a gaming choice , a DP is just plain always better. I have to grudgingly concur. I'll take Bile or Khârn before I'll take a Lord in a competitive list (though that's not a whole lot better, at least Bile gives something to the army and then just hides, and Khârn is, well, Khârn). My Lords only tend to come out in friendly/casual games, same with the Sorcerers. Two Princes in the same warband is about as unfluffy as one can get, but it is the most effective HQ setup as long as you're not out to make any friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chillin Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Not sure why some ppl are so down on lords ? (w undivided D. Weap) 4-5 + D6 attacks at str.5, can ride in a rino but still fly. I think most other armies would consider that a pretty good HQ. He's reg size so can't be picked out by hvy weapns. My reg opponents always dread not knowing which rino my lord will come out of with his up to 11 str.5 PW attacks (yes of course there is always a chance I'll roll a 1). Your opponents always know where your DP's are, not so with a chaos lord. Can come out of a rino and charge up to 20" away. I'm not saying that twin DP's aren't good, but IMO, when used well, lords are better then some give them credit for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supreme Overlord Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Not sure why some ppl are so down on lords ? For me its the unreliability, the absence of Eternal Warrior (which the DP has), the non-MC status, the lower stats, the lack of psychic powers and inflated points cost. A Prince has none of those disavantages at a slightly higher price. There isn't much of an arguement to be honest, Princes are just THAT much better. I would love to field a Dark Apostle, but I won't in a competetive environment if it will compromise my army's effectiveness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rik Riorik Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Daemon Princes personify for me the difference between loyalists and traitors, and is one of the reasons I wanted to start a Chaos army. That said Id still rather field a Lord, but that is purely because of the percieved need to field a Dark Apostle. But bang for buck a Demon Prince is a better choice in many a case for the reasons listed in the above post. But Lords definetly dont strike me as bad. I dont think my heart could handle ever fielding a daemon weapon armed Khornite Lord, but the rest definetly have their uses and can often enough be trusted to do that piece of work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperors Immortals Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Im resurrecting my 2nd ed. Chaos warband. They were Khorne/Nurgle alligned (and then split for 3rd ed.) and i think im the only person taking a MoK Prince/Lord. I love it, its not the most competitive choice, but my god i love it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Not sure why some ppl are so down on lords ? (w undivided D. Weap) 4-5 + D6 attacks at str.5, can ride in a rino but still fly. I think most other armies would consider that a pretty good HQ. am just going to take the meq dudes. SW- RP cheaper better support unit WL more killy , possible eternal , SS , TWC , LC re-roling wounds or hits. SM- specials khan/vulkan/pedro - they change FoC librarian - better army support BA- specials [dante, asta] -they change foc , more killy mefo , libby - more killiy better support chapies -dont have to take HQ slot , they still buff an assault army , cheaper then a lord DA[this one will be fun] belial - changes FoC . TH/SS . cheaper . sammy - cant play RW without him[if someone is crazy enough to do it]. BT chappy- better support of army , TH/SS , obsydian mantle emp champ -forced to take him , still give army wide buff . I dont think any meq army would want to run a chaos lord. their HQs are either cheaper , more killy and for those armies that are in to hth bring more then just a A+d6 str 5 power weapon[that can stun you without EW and with an inv of +5]. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 I agree, point for point, Lords cannot compete (sadly). Sure they may make their points back with a lucky roll from time to time, but they are worse than 90% of all other MEQ HQs out there. Random example, put a Lord in a Rhino, suddenly you can't put a 10 man strong CSM unit in that transport any more (also losing access to the second special weapon). But then you can just buy Cult troops right! No, as has been pointed out you are now FORCED to buy Cult troops to remain effective. On top of the cult unit you need in the transport, you also need more Cult units because there is no Daemon Prince to help carry close combats. So what if you play a warband that doesn't have access to or uses Cult troops? Count-as? Do-able if done right sure, but, why do you have to stretch and bend the fluff to field a 'normal' and viable list when other codices can mix and match as they choose? Also, The aforementioned Powerfist, what happens if say a Tac sergeant and his unit allocate their wounds to your Lord? He crumbles. What happens if he does that to a Prince? 1-2 wounds taken at worst. What if your Lord rolls a 1? Princes, don't have that issue and they also don't crumble to small arms fire (MoN). Fluff aside, a Prince is the strongest choice we have available to us. Take two and it is double the mayhem with no drawbacks. I long for a new Codex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
breng77 Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 I think the lords w/ Daemon Weapon would be a good choice, if they lost that whole if you roll a 1 you take a wound and cannot attack. If you just took the wound, IMO then we could talk about them being decent. But as a competitive choice, the lord won't cut it because he is not reliable, if you run him in to wreck face in a combat and he rolls a 1 then he is likely dead. If you just took a wound for every one you rolled (with Invul saves allowed) I could see running a Khorne lord because he is going to average 11 attacks (12 on the charge). But, the chances of him rolling a 1 are just too high to make him reliable at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Agree with the things Jeske and Nihm said. (hey this is quicker than writing it myself ^^) No army; not even Necrons (well actually, maybe Necrons would :) ), would take a Chaos Lord if they could (when trying to make a competative list) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
breng77 Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 The chaos lord Vs The necron Lord is actually a pretty interesting comparison. IN CC the Chaos Lord is almost definitely better (due mostly to Initiative.) But the Necron Lord does more for the rest of the army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chengar Qordath Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 The Daemon Prince is definitely by far the best HQ choice for a Chaos Army. It's probably also worth noting that the codices to come out since the current Chaos Codex have made wings on a MC much more expensive than what the Chaos Marine DP pays for them, which only contributes to DP being the best choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 wings could cost 50 pts and we would still buy them . nid MC dont need wings to work. but then again nids have their own set of problems all tied to the whole "balanced" dex thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manning Posted February 25, 2011 Author Share Posted February 25, 2011 wings could cost 50 pts and we would still buy them Agreed. Without wings the Daemon Prince is far less effective (ie inability to keep up with mobile cover, huge decrease in threat range, etc) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rik Riorik Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 I wouldnt mind having a DP on foot because I like the looks without wings. But itd be bad business not to take wings. But instead of talking about the merits of Daemon Princes because I think those are pretty clear at the moment it would perhaps be more interesting to discuss what Sorcerors and Lords would need to make them better choices by comparison. Lower costs, options to make them influence the way the army plays in more ways than just adding hitting power, psychic defences, Eternal Warrior, interesting war gear and better mastery of the arcane could be ways of doing it. Proper retinues specific to the both Sorceror and Lord could be an option as well. All should of course be done with internal balance in mind which is the reason we are where we currently are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 I agree, but that is for another topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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