Mysticaria Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 ok, so I have sort of a two-part question: 1- How do you evaluate new forces when you add them to your army? I made some fairly significant army changes and played in a 3-game tournament this weekend. Some of the new units that I took performed fairly suprising, both good and bad, and I'm wondering how many games do you take to make a decision on whether you like a unit, whether its a good fit, whether its worth its point, etc... The reason I'm asking this question is because during the tournament I took a unit of Sternguard and they were simply awesome in all 3 games. I've previously taken sternguard and have never really been effectivve with them, usually very underwhelming really, and now I'm trying to figure out what the difference was this time... new gaming environment, new changes in my army, different player skill now, different squad configuration, did I previously misevaluate, or was it just luck over a small sample size of games??? How do you evaluate new forces? 2- How do you take Sternguard? Are Sternguard really amazing stars that can excel in any situation, or are they just overcosted tactical marines? What was different this time that caused the sternguard to excel? In the past I've taken demisquads with 2x plasmacanons in rhino bunkers, squads of 10 guys with bolters in rhinos, squads with 2 heavy flamers, etc... This time I took 9 guys with 3 combimeltas, powerfist and a librarian with null zone. 300 points plus the libby made the unit 400 points... I thought that was way too hefty for 10 power armored models, but they really shined. I really thought that the null zone added a lot of utility to the bolters, especially the wound on 2+ rounds, and the force weapon attacks added the ability to beat up on more stuff in close combat. -Myst Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TyrionTheImp Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 1. I find it difficult to really evaluate units, because your opponent's armies are going to be different most of the time, and a casual scene and a tournament scene are completely different. One might perform well in one, but be awful in the other, great against some armies, not so great against others. I personally don't really bother "evaluating" units individually, I look at the army as a whole and if it doesn't perform as I want it to (regardless of a win or a loss) I'll usually just rewrite the list from scratch. Most of the time though, because of the internet, most units are already evaluated on an individual basis and in conjunction with other units by many many people, thus giving you a much wider view of the units performance as a whole than you can get just by yourself. For instance, it's pretty much agreed by everyone that Rifleman Dreads are the best transport openers Space Marines can get. 2. I always take combi-meltas on Sternguard. They don't need extra infantry killing power, their special ammunition can handle everything short of a 2+ save (and even that they can spam with wounds via hellfire), giving them combi-meltas makes them a threat to tanks, without jacking up their cost too much, and increases their overall versatility. They are, in my opinion the epitome of a Space Marine unit, jack of all trades, master of none, yet these guys excel above that. The only exception is if I'm doing the 2x Lascannon or plasma cannon Devastator replacement. That being said, there are many ways to run them. If I'm only running one unit, I'll probably drop pod them in, if they're in a rhino they become a prime target and probably be the first transport blown up. If I'm running multiples, and it's not a drop pod army, putting them in rhinos works just fine, especially when you have even more rhinos with tacticals in them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan249 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 I run my new unit ideas through a gauntlet of playtests first (18 games, 2 games in each permutation of the missions), take notes after each battle, then take those notes and my general feeling of them and consolidate them into a final conclusion about the unit, it's weaknesses and strengths, in the context of my established list. I usually take sternguard in the following config. Sternguard Squad: 10 vets, 8 combi-meltas, DP - 325 points In the context of my dreadraiders list, this unit almost guarantees that one or two big mamma jammas die (most likely the ones that are the most threat to my dreads + raiders), then sits there and dares the opponent to ignore them. If they do, bolters of death go around and rapidfire. If they don't, then my relatively unscathed dreads/raiders continue chugging along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 I know how you feel, I'm always changing lists so sometimes it can be difficult to rate performances. I've come up with a good system of looking at a unit and it's performances on an individual basis. If you objectively look at what your unit did, what was done to it and who helped it do what it did (or caused what was done to it) then you can see a better picture of how it did. For example it's easy to look awesome if your unit attracted little flak and rolled over weaker units or they were set up for glory by another unit's hard work :P Like spartan said you can't go wrong by taking a sort of "average" view on a unit as it fights hard for you on the table over several games; ideally against different opponents and armies. I also agree with Tyrion - Sternguard are already very good at killing infantry so benefit most from some AT. I'm taking them as a small 6 man unit with 2 combi-meltas and a power fist for assaulting and giving them some punch (as a nasty shooty unit becomes a charging target). I intend on increasing their number by a couple more soon though :tu: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 I know how you feel Myst. I used to run a couple of Typhoons for a while, before they got phased out by my Rifleman Dreads as the Typhoons were often underwhelming. Then, after getting bored with what I was running, I tried Typhoons out again, this time instead of my Vindys. Result? Typhoons were fantastic, and have been a brilliant part of my list in the last few games I've played with them. The difference? Last time I ran them in two separate squadrons. This time, as I have two MM/HF Speeders in separate squadrons I have to run the two Typhoons in the same squadrons. And I don't mind because I still have my Rifleman Dreads. Now I need to think of reasons not to take them! About the Sternguard, I've run these guys for ages now. The first time I ever ran them was as a 5 man squad with two heavy flamers and a power fist in a HB Razorback, accompanied by Vulkan. These guys were horrible, as three twin-linked heavy flamers would tear apart infantry. A couple of years on, I run them differently, although it depends on the list. If I'm running my Libby they are 9 men strong and get a power fist, two heavy flamers and four combi-meltas. Four combi-meltas will wipe out a tank, or I can split them into 2x2 shots, hopefully knocking out a couple of tanks. The Libby sticks with the squad and uses Null Zone and maybe Avenger from inside the Rhino. The heavy flamers are to help me deal with hordes, very handy. I am, however, considering dropping either the heavy flamers or the combi-meltas, and focussing their role. If I had to pick one it's be the heavy flamers that get dropped as I have a lot of anti-infantry firepower elsewhere, but I can't think of constructive uses for the extra 20pts. In my current Vulkan lists, I simply drop the combi-meltas from my Libby list when running them, and use the squad to slaughter infantry. Works well. I've tried Sternguard Devs, don't like them because in my mind Sternguard should be in people's face bringing their boltguns to bear. But yeah, Sternguard are one of my favourite choices, and I've developed my opinions on them. For one thing, heavy flamers are optional in large squads, as they have enough boltguns there to take care of most infantry choices. On the other hand, heavy flamers are near mandatory in small units. Sternguard should be taking out infantry, so unless you've equipped your Sternguard squad with lots of meltas in small squads, you should take at least one heavy flamer. This lets you keep the flexibility of boltguns, while still letting them pack a punch against infantry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanhausen Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Fine tunning lists is quite tough. And complete overhaul is usually not the best way out... What I do, I add small changes to the main build (say +-400 points changes in 2k list) and play at least 3 games, usually 5-6 in order to see if it blends into the theme, how I play and if it requires other units to support or if they add to the main idea of my army. For example, I spend 1 year playing Deathwing, basically learning how terminators move, how they affect deployments and all of those interesting things. The project for this year was full Ravenwing, but I don't own enough bikes so I opted for a DW "dash"... which turned out something like 900 points xD (Belial + 2 squads). I gave it some games, saw where I needed more punch and where I was OTT... and rebalanced issues. For example, I found I had enough high S shots, but not enough range... so I opted for removing the 2xLRC and going for 3x1 LS Typhoon/MM and adding another RW squad and AB all across. That was quite a significant change and I'm still learning how to maximize the movement and ranges and all of that... but I'm enjoying it a lot (as well as getting good results). Usually, its hard to come by a BAD unit, and way easier to simply not have the appropiate theme and synergies with your other units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Fine tunning lists is quite tough. And complete overhaul is usually not the best way out... What I do, I add small changes to the main build (say +-400 points changes in 2k list) and play at least 3 games, usually 5-6 in order to see if it blends into the theme, how I play and if it requires other units to support or if they add to the main idea of my army. This is often what I'm doing, and after a year or two you look back and wonder what happened to the original list. My first list is based around a Libby, Sternguard, and Vindicators, supported by two Tactical squads and two Rifleman Dreads with MM/HF Speeders chucked in as a wildcard. My LGS fear it, but I look back and try and trace where it comes from and it's so hard. In the end where it came from was a half Company list led by a Captain, and then I started swapping things out for a tournament. Since then I've switched and changed things and eventually I've ended up with what it has now. It is always quite interesting watching a list evolve I feel, and can teach you a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schultzhoffen Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 In my UM army I have x9 SG in a Rhino with a Librarian who takes Avenger and Null Zone. The SGuard have a PF, x3 CMeltas and x3 CPlasma. They are my best unit every game. I'd not dream of a standard army list without them. They handle MCs, Tanks, Orks, MEQs, everything. Furthermore, with 2 attacks each, they're pretty decent in CC, too (about the same as assault marines but much more versatile). Next best unit? Bog standard Tac Squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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