dspur15 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 This is the Index Astartes for my Obsidian Fists chapter. It's still in heavy development and is very much a work in progress. I will be continually updating it with new info as I come up with it. Maybe i'll actually get around to painting something and put up a link to some gallery posts. Anyway, feel free to leave some feedback. This is my first attempt at doing this so any help is very appreciated. Last edit was 5:00am 2/24 (Make sure to keep in mind when posts were made to find the current ones) EDIT: Added potential color scheme EDIT: Removed the majority of fluff while I rework it I'm trying to come up with some basic background fluff for my chapter and wanted to just put down a few of my ideas for people to look over and see if they approved or it there were any contradictions with GW's stuff. (This has all been removed for now but will be back up soon!) Name- Obsidian Fists (It fits with my theme but it sounds kind of bland for some reason?) Primarch- Rogal Dorn Homeworld- Fleet Based Progenitors- Crimson Fists Alright everyone I took a crack at coming up with a color scheme for my Obsidian Fists (other name suggestions?) DIY chapter. I feel like it's not overly unique in the regard that it uses red, grey, and black so i'm trying to vary the colors and how there used enough for it to be somewhat interesting. I may do the whole 1 black fist for normal guys, 2 black fists for veterans, no black fist for scouts in honor of the Crimson Fists who my chapter are descended from (through way of the Crimson Fists providing the officers who trained the new chapter and took original potions of chapter master, head apothecary, veteran sergeants, librarian, ect.) I think it may be kind of cool because they are the Obsidian (Black) Fists. Thoughts on this? One thing I do want to point out is that I plan on using Roman numerals for the company number on the kneepad. However, for some reason on the marine painter the roman numerals only go from 1 to 2? I guess I should have still just used them but I plan on making the 3rd company with the actual miniatures so I just used the Gothic 3 to avoid personal confusion. Here's the standard marine and sarge http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/9291/spacemarine1q.jpghttp://img338.imageshack.us/img338/1638/spacemarinesgt.jpg Here's a veteran and sarge http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/5436/veteran.jpghttp://img9.imageshack.us/img9/6149/veteransgt.jpg Chapter logo will be a black fists (exactly like the Imperial Fists logo just without the white circle around it) Colors used would be Codex Grey, Chaos Black, Mechanrite Red, and Boltgun Metal. Has anyone had experience with the red? I've never used it and don't know how it looks in person but on the marine painter it looks pretty BA. Also one thing about the painter. There will be bits of boltgun metal and gold and other little things on the miniatures. I'll probably put laurels on the veterans but I didn't want them to be green like in the painter. They'd most likely be black or maybe silver or gold So what does everyone think? Any suggestions? One of my main problems is figuring out how to incorporate the Codex company colors into my guys. Initially I just had the marine all codex grey with black trim and a gray shoulder pad. This way no matter which company I was modeling the company color would match the chapter colors. Then I realized that was terribly boring and uninspired so I said screw it and came up with this instead. If anyone does have any suggestions on how to use company colors let me know thought. I think having a unique color scheme and just using the number on the knee pad will probably be fine and look better anyway though. It seems like most people don't incorporate the codex company colors anyway so I'm assuming that this isn't considered a bad practice. Thanks! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223003-ia-obsidian-fists/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferrata Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 It would work but I would change it slightly to make it flow better. A group of marines including maybe a few officers were very unhappy the way the chapter was going and wanted to continue being a crusade based fleet. They kept expressing dissenting opinions and causing internal conflict in the chapter. So when the 25th founding occurred the chapter master found out that a chapter was being founded off of Crimson fists geneseed so he sent away this group of marines to train the new chapter, the Obsidian Fists. I've never particularly enjoyed the idea of Astartes complaining and moaning and then finally being allowed to leave - it seems all to nice and all to convienant for your chapter. You could simply say that he was sent to lead the chapter he was allowed to place his own ethos on to the chapter. He had disliked what the Crimson Fists had become and wanted to take them back to their original state. Personally, I feel like this just seems to be more logical and more, well, flowly. The Imperial Fists are a codex-chapter, it says after the Iron Cage the Fists fully embraced the Codex. The only difference is that they are pretty darn good at siege warfare and are as stubborn as bloodstains. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223003-ia-obsidian-fists/#findComment-2666358 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Hunter Ydalir Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Without even having skimmed the entire piece one thing jumped out at me. Basically the Obsidian Fists are trying to break away from standard Codex doctrine and be more like the Fists and Templars because they think it's a purer form of worship towards the emperor and the primarch. Wait, what? The Imperial Fists aren't Codex Adherent? The chapter that most fiercely follows the codex beside the Ultramarines is the Imperial Fists. The Black Templars are indeed non-codex and can easily see using them as an example of what not to do could be a good driving force for a new Marine commander, but the Fists? The other thing I'm thinking is that this is more about dissatisfaction with the Crimson Fists than anything really about your chapter so far, otherwise you'd use Imperial Fists geneseed and be done with it. I still don't understand why you're choosing the Crimson Fists. Since they were almost decimated I don't think they're a great target to make successors out of, given they are trying to rebuild the chapter more than anything else. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223003-ia-obsidian-fists/#findComment-2666451 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Just needs to insert "the original approach of the Imperial Fists legion, or the Black Templars" in that quote. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223003-ia-obsidian-fists/#findComment-2666486 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dspur15 Posted February 21, 2011 Author Share Posted February 21, 2011 I still don't understand why you're choosing the Crimson Fists. Since they were almost decimated I don't think they're a great target to make successors out of, given they are trying to rebuild the chapter more than anything else. The 25th founding occured before the attack on Rynn's World and the decimation of the Crimson Fists. Before that they were a full chapter of 1000 marines and had a large fleet because they were crusade based. My successor chapter was founded during the 25th founding so that was almost 1000 years before the Crimson Fists were almost destroyed. I guess I phrased the whole Codex thing with the Imperial Fists wrong. I wasn't trying to say that the Imperial Fists are non-codex compliant. Like you guys said after the Iron Cage and Dorn's death the Imperial Fists have been one of the most stalwart and codex compliant chapters around (besides the ultramarines) but I would say that you could make a reasoned argument that if a marine looked at how the Black Templars are organized and perform and then applied some of the Pre-Heresy teachings abnd tactics of Dorn you could come up with a view that definietely differed from the Codex. My chapter WOULD be largely codex compliant but will have more specilalized sige warfare units and have large knowledge in engineering and defensive fortification. I don't have time right now but I'll go back through and edit some of the parts. I guess my chapter doesn't really want to emulate the Post-Heresy Fists but more like the Pre-Heresy Rogal Dorn led Fists. Just needs to insert "the original approach of the Imperial Fists legion, or the Black Templars" in that quote. You got it right towards what I was intending. Sorry for the confusion Hope that clears things up a bit Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223003-ia-obsidian-fists/#findComment-2666869 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodWulf Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Is this part a key to your founding? "A group of marines including maybe a few officers were very unhappy the way the chapter was going and wanted to continue being a crusade based fleet. They kept expressing dissenting opinions and causing internal conflict in the chapter. So when the 25th founding occurred the chapter master found out that a chapter was being founded off of Crimson fists geneseed so he sent away this group of marines to train the new chapter, the Obsidian Fists." I ask becasue this could be changed a bit. When the CF decided to settle, perhaps the HLoT wanted to keep a CHapter Crusading and tagged the CF to give up a Company to do so. The effect would be the same without all the "yeah well we dont like you guys anyway" The Captain of this Company could easily have been the sort who used tactics more inline with the IF than the CF and so the Chapter itself soon found that it was fighting more like the IF due to their training and Doctrine. I only say this because there seems to be a rash of "My Chapter didnt like their Daddy so they got mad and left". I think my option accomplishes all the same things but without the strife of being againsd the CF. I think its better to have more frineds htna enemies or even rivals. Especially for a Crusade Fleet. Unless that strife is somehow very important to your chapter, then do what you gotta do :devil: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223003-ia-obsidian-fists/#findComment-2666872 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Direach Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 I certainly don't mean to be cheeky, but... obsidian is volcanic glass and relatively brittle, an obsidian fist would shatter the first time you hit anything with it. Obsidian is more associated with sharpness than durability. Perhaps something more durable might serve better in the chapter name, like the Stone Fists, or the Adamant Fists? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223003-ia-obsidian-fists/#findComment-2666888 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dspur15 Posted February 21, 2011 Author Share Posted February 21, 2011 Right. To everyone talking about "well i got mad at my daddy and left," Haha nice way to put it to. Anyway, I totally get what you guy are saying and I guess it doesn't really make too much since this is a professional military organization and there wouldn't be open dissent among officers. If there was they'd probably all be excommunicated or investigated and possible executed by the Inquistion or something. To the post above this (forgot your name,sorry) I really like the idea of the High Lords wanting to keep a crusade fleet so they could have requsitioned some of the Crimson Fists ships since they didn't need them and given them some of the old fleet. That would at least provide a good basis on how they got enough ships to crusade and do some damage. The one thing I think i'll keep is that this captain or who ever that was sent to train and lead the new chapter still had the ideals I was talking about he just didn't outright throw them around while he was a member of the Crimson Fists. I could also reason from that, that he was allowed to handpick the small group of marines who went with him and since he had this differing opinion and he knew some others who did as well he picked them out because he knew they would support him in his vision for the new chapter. Does that sound better? I think I still want to create some tension with the Crimson Fists though. Almost like they're rivals but not in a huge and bitter way. More like they distrust each other. I think I mentioned it at the top but would it make sense that the Crimson Fists may partially blame the Obsidian Fists for the catastrophe at Rynn's World. I mean the Obsidian Fists would have used up the CF geneseed pool to some extent and they also took some of their ships which meant that the CF's couldn't have defended themselves as effectively. Then once they were almost all killed they would have had to wait longer to replinish their ranks while enough geneseed was grown. I certainly don't mean to be cheeky, but... obsidian is volcanic glass and relatively brittle, an obsidian fist would shatter the first time you hit anything with it. Obsidian is more associated with sharpness than durability. Perhaps something more durable might serve better in the chapter name, like the Stone Fists, or the Adamant Fists? That's a good point... I'll have to mull that over and think of some alternatives. Once I do i'll post them for everyone to vote on. In the meantime feel free to give me your own suggestions Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223003-ia-obsidian-fists/#findComment-2666890 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapter Master Ignis Domus Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Progenitors- Imperial fists If they're Crimson Fists succesors, this would be Crimson Fists. A group of marines including maybe a few officers were very unhappy the way the chapter was going and wanted to continue being a crusade based fleet. They kept expressing dissenting opinions and causing internal conflict in the chapter. And were summarily shot as heretics. Dissent and internal strife instigation are normally signs of a) The Alpha Legion(Yaay!), or :D those recently turned to Chaos seeking to add 'Destroyed well-known chapter' to their resume when applying for Daemonhood. Basically the Obsidian Fists are trying to break away from standard Codex doctrine and be more like the Fists and Templars because they think it's a purer form of worship towards the emperor and the primarch. As stated earlier, the IF are one of the greatest followers of the great codex. I could see the following the Templars example, though. I also am thinking that since the Crimson Fists shrunk their fleet when they settled down on Rynn's world that they could have given this new chapter a ship or two to get started with. The Adeptus Mechanicus would do this for them. Also since the Obsidian Fists are fleet based I plan on making alot of there early history spent tagging along with the Black Templars and Imperial Fists and contribution to just small company actions side by side with the other chapters until their numbers grew enough. They probably wouldn't need the aid of the chapter. Resources so valuable as marines are best used elsewhere. If the Fists/Templars need an entire chapter of aid, you have a problem. I might try supporting guard units in an offensive. Obviously this close proximity would create a strong brotherhood between the chapters and also help to accelerate the divergence of the Obsidian fists away from the codex. The Fists are still Codex-Adherent. I also plan on talking about how the Crimson fists blame the 25th founding and Obsidian Fists partially for Rynn's world being destroyed. Well not causing the destruction but the founding depleted the geneseed banks for the Crimson Fists so when Rynn's world got messed up and the crimson fists were almost annihilated they couldn't replenish there ranks as quickly because of the lack of geneseed. Coming up with more for that whole part right now The 25th Founding and the 'incident' are 1,200 years different. It wouldn't still affect them. Also, they don't provide the geneseed. It is tithed to the Adeptus Mechanicus, who then issue it to the new chapter. It's part of the reason Huron broke away. Finally, the geneseed stored in the Fortress-Monastery would be destroyed no matter how much there is. Missiles are scary. Especially when designed to kill ships. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223003-ia-obsidian-fists/#findComment-2666938 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dspur15 Posted February 21, 2011 Author Share Posted February 21, 2011 Ignis Domus if you had read my last post you would have seen i've addressed alot of the issues you brought up already. I've just been busy today and haven't had a chance to edit my original post. Thanks for the comments thought. Some of the points your brought up are helpful Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223003-ia-obsidian-fists/#findComment-2667103 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 The Black Templars fought in the Vortigern Crusade as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223003-ia-obsidian-fists/#findComment-2667132 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapter Master Ignis Domus Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Oops. Teach me to miss a post. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223003-ia-obsidian-fists/#findComment-2667147 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Fisting Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Only original Legions have Successors. Successors do not have Successors. So, why not just make them the Obsidian Fists, Successors of the Imperial Fists geneseed. Leave my Crimson Fists outta this. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223003-ia-obsidian-fists/#findComment-2667164 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapter Master Ignis Domus Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Successors very much have successors. Surely you do not expect us to believe that all thousand chapters have been provided by nine of them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223003-ia-obsidian-fists/#findComment-2667175 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Fisting Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Successors very much have successors. Surely you do not expect us to believe that all thousand chapters have been provided by nine of them. That's exactly what I expect you to believe. The Original Nine's geneseed is kept on Mars under the strict watch of the Adeptus Biologis, until the High Lords deem it time for a new Founding. So it is, so it shall ever be. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223003-ia-obsidian-fists/#findComment-2667184 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapter Master Ignis Domus Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 No, see all chapters tithe geneseed to the AdMech, a major example being the Astral Claws. Why else would the AdMech have that, if not to make new chapters? And why do you expect me to believe that? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223003-ia-obsidian-fists/#findComment-2667189 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Fisting Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 They'd still be an Imperial Fists Successor. There's no such thing as Crimson Fists geneseed, for their's is just Imperial Fists... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223003-ia-obsidian-fists/#findComment-2667192 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Renatus Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Yeah, I'm with CMID on this. It is well documented canon that all chapters provide geneseed tithes to 1) ensure they are free of mutation and 2) replenish the genestocks of the AdMech. A 26th Founding chapter may be a UM successor, but it's geneseed may have come from a variety of UM sources...White Consuls, Black Consuls, Aurora, Genesis, etc. It doesn't matter...it's plug and play so long as the purity of each is on the same level. Please see the bottom of page 8 in Codex: Space Marines Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223003-ia-obsidian-fists/#findComment-2667194 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Fisting Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Yeah, I'm with CMID on this. It is well documented canon that all chapters provide geneseed tithes to 1) ensure they are free of mutation and 2) replenish the genestocks of the AdMech. A 26th Founding chapter may be a UM successor, but it's geneseed may have come from a variety of UM sources...White Consuls, Black Consuls, Aurora, Genesis, etc. It doesn't matter...it's plug and play so long as the purity of each is on the same level. Please see the bottom of page 8 in Codex: Space Marines It's STILL the geneseed of one of the original Legions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223003-ia-obsidian-fists/#findComment-2667195 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Renatus Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Ok. Touche. So what you need to say dspur15 is that they're IF successors, and that the Crimson Fists were their primogenitor chapter, the guys that provided the cadre to train them in all things Dorn and Codex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223003-ia-obsidian-fists/#findComment-2667197 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapter Master Ignis Domus Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 You're getting into semantics. The Crimson Fists possess the geneseed at one point, therefore it is theirs at that point. Another way of saying this is "the geneseed of the Crimson Fists". Also, geneseed is often lost/altered, especially shown by the 13th Founding. EDIT: Change 13th to 21st. Thanks, Brother Tyler. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223003-ia-obsidian-fists/#findComment-2667198 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Tyler Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 And the Badab War IA books have settled the issue. A Chapter created as a Successor of the Crimson Fists would claim the Crimson Fists as their predecessor while their gene-seed would ultimately be traced back to the Imperial Fists and Rogal Dorn. I'm not sure why we're all getting in a tizzy over this issue. And it was the 21st Founding in which gene-seed was altered. The 13th Founding was the Dark Founding - we're not sure what happened there. +EDIT+ Had to go looking back a few pages to find an example... For those of you that don't have access to either of the Badab War IA books, here's an Index Astartes article someone did following the format in those books. The key reason I'm pointing it out is the use of a Successor as a Chapter's predecessor. http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=215486 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223003-ia-obsidian-fists/#findComment-2667206 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapter Master Ignis Domus Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Oops. My foundings confuse me. I'm amazed I can do taxes when I can't keep track of 26 foundings. :thanks: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223003-ia-obsidian-fists/#findComment-2667208 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecritter Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 In reality the Chapter would be a successor of Dorn by way of the Crimson Fists. Since its not Imperial Fist Geneseed, its Dorn's. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223003-ia-obsidian-fists/#findComment-2667292 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Hunter Ydalir Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 The 25th founding occured before the attack on Rynn's World and the decimation of the Crimson Fists. Before that they were a full chapter of 1000 marines and had a large fleet because they were crusade based. My successor chapter was founded during the 25th founding so that was almost 1000 years before the Crimson Fists were almost destroyed. Fair cop, I somehow thought you'd picked a point after this. In reality the Chapter would be a successor of Dorn by way of the Crimson Fists. Since its not Imperial Fist Geneseed, its Dorn's. Not particularly. They share genetic code with their Primarch but the gene-seed itself is, while related, not the same. The gene-seed is taken from the Imperial Fists and as such becomes Imperial Fist gene-seed, since the original members of the legion were from different genetic stock than Dorn. You're getting into semantics. The Crimson Fists possess the geneseed at one point, therefore it is theirs at that point. Another way of saying this is "the geneseed of the Crimson Fists". I'm behind this statement. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223003-ia-obsidian-fists/#findComment-2667297 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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