IA: Obsidian Fists

[Ecritter]

In reality the Chapter would be a successor of Dorn by way of the Crimson Fists. Since its not Imperial Fist Geneseed, its Dorn's.

 

Not particularly. They share genetic code with their Primarch but the gene-seed itself is, while related, not the same. The gene-seed is taken from the Imperial Fists and as such becomes Imperial Fist gene-seed, since the original members of the legion were from different genetic stock than Dorn.

 

What I'm saying is that the 'base' Geneseed is that of Dorn, adding the "by way of the Crimson Fists" shows that they'd carry on any modifications or mutations present in thier parent Chapter, it would also show that they were trained in the ways of the parent Chapter.

[Direach]

With no intention of stoking argument, I'll point out that (assuming Forge World publications may be considered canon) the Raptors, the Executioners, and the Eagle Warriors are all Successor Chapters that have had their gene-seed used to found subsequent Chapters. It is logical to assume that a Chapter's gene-seed is considered to belong to that Chapter, not their progenitor. Just as Novamarine gene-seed (for example) is of the line of Guilliman but distinctly Novamarine gene-seed, so too would Crimson Fist gene-seed be of the line of Dorn and yet be its own distinct gene-seed, not Imperial Fists.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

What I'm saying is that the 'base' Geneseed is that of Dorn

 

Now I could be wrong here as I can't remember exactly what happened in the original legions genetic makeup after the infant Primarchs were scattered through the galaxy.

 

The Space Marine legions existed before the discovery of the Primarchs, if parts of their genetic code were added to the Legion after their discovery (as I think my memory is telling me) then the base gene-seed in use before then would have been the Legions.

 

Thing is I keep getting the thought that the Original legions were created using the primarchs genetic code before they were lost, which may undermine my argument but I don't have any material to hand right now, so I'm a bit stuck.

[Ecritter]

Its always been my understanding that the original Legion's Geneseed was grown using their Primarch's genetic material. Thats the base of my thoughts on who's geneseed it is.

[dspur15]

Maybe this will help clear up the argument some

 

Definition- Primogenitor

 

pri·mo·gen·i·tor (prm-jn-tr) n.

 

1. The earliest ancestor.

2. An ancestor or forebear.

 

So by "The earliest ancestor" definition, any chapters primogenitor would have to be one of the original 9 Legions.

 

Meaning ANY Space Marine Chapters primogenitor would be listed as either Dark Angels, White Scars, Space Wolves (none exist), Imperial Fists, Blood Angels, Iron Hands, Ultramarines, Salamanders, or Raven Guard.

 

However, here's some confusion for you," Because the Marines that made up each of the Second Founding Chapters originated from one of the Legions that first served the Emperor, the chapters that were created were called Successor Chapters, a title not given to chapters created after that initial split." I pulled that straight of the Lexicanum article on the 2nd Founding (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Second_Founding) I'm not sure where that info really comes from though because the sources aren't listed and it's a wiki-style site. Meaning someone could have just made it up but I doubt it.

 

So now i'm interested in how newer chapters (since 2nd founding) are officially linked to the chapter that trains them. According to this Primogenitor would describe where the chapters original geneseed came from (in my case it would be Imperial Fists), also according to this only the chapters from the 2nd founding are referred to as successor chapters (in my case the Black Templars and Crimson Fists, as well as the Soul Drinkers :lol: ) This kind of supports what Crimson Fisting was saying.

 

However, I don't see how it would be realistic to say that a chapter wouldn't have any connection with it's chapter of origin. I'll continue using my new chapter as an example. Okay High Lords declare a founding. 2 progenoid glands are selected from a vault that contains progenoid donations from all current space marine chapters (these progenoids are genetically derived from Rogal Dorn but aren't necessarily directly from the Imperial Fists) 1000 new progenoid glands are grown from these original two inside test tube babies in labs on Terra. The progenoids are examined and officially sanctioned by the Master of the Adeptus Mechanicus and High Lords of Terra. The Crimson Fists (but also potentially the black templars or imperial fists or any other chapters with Rogal Dorn originated geneseed) are selected to send a complement of one or two officers, a few scout sergeants, some apothecaries and techmarines and any other useful personnel to a planet somewhere. Once there they pick out 1000 recruits from the indigenous population and with the help of apothecaries, techmarines, and probably some Ad Mech people implant the progenoids into these 1000 individuals. They begin the transformation from aspirants to neophyte to initiate, and then on to full fledged marine. I think from there we know the rest.

 

So I mean technically speaking these guys could have geneseed from the Black Templars or even a great great great great grandson chapter of the templars, but since the geneseed that was used has been deemed genetically identical to the original Imperial Fist geneseed from even before the Horus Heresy, these new marines should be genetically identical to the Crimson Fist personnel who are their new masters.

 

Based on my earlier definitions that would mean that their primogenitor is the Imperial Fists and they aren't supposed to be classified as a successor chapter. However, the officers may bring them up to be exactly like the Crimson Fists and may even name them the Slightly Different Shade of Crimson Fists. So is there even a definitive link between the Crimson Fists and this new chapter. On the surface there appears to be a VERY strong link but it seems that technically speaking there is not. They are only linked to the Crimson Fists by the spirit and identity of these original officers from the Crimson Fists. They probably don't actually even know which chapter there geneseed technically came from. So all space marine chapters should be genetically identical to one of the 9 original legions and the only reason they may be linked to an offshoot chapter is because it is the one that helped in their training and initial development.

 

The best thing would be to rephrase what Marshal Renatus said to read something like this "They were trained by the Crimson Fists, and the Imperial Fists were their primogenitor chapter."

 

I went way too in depth on that and like Ignis said it's pretty much just semantics at this point. I just hope what I said cleared things up a bit. I kind of wrote all that for my own good as well because I need to learn as much as I can about all this to make my chapter believable. So anyway key points 9 Legions are Primogenitors, any chapters from the 2nd founding are successor chapters, and any chapter after the 2nd founding only shares an unofficial link with the chapter that provided the men who trained them.

 

We Cool? B)

[Ecritter]

pri·mo·gen·i·tor (prm-jn-tr) n.

 

1. The earliest ancestor.

2. An ancestor or forebear.

 

Dorn is thier Ancestor. His genetic material was used to grow the original Geneseed, before it was ever placed in a boy that would become an Imperial Fist. The Geneseed came first, not the Legion.

[dspur15]

Okay I guess anything I said could be refuted by the claim that when the 1000 different chapters send there geneseed to Terra and that it is stored separately from that of any other chapter. So when they declare a founding they know EXACTLY which chapter the progenoid came from and then task the EXACT same chapter whose geneseed they used to train the new chapter that has their EXACT same geneseed.

 

Now one thing that doesn't make sense with this is that geneseed mutation is seen as a veryyyyy bad thing in almost every circumstance. The Ad Mech would probably want to keep the geneseed as close to the original 9 as possible meaning if a chapter sent in a mutated progenoid they wouldn't accept it and may even send the inquisition after the horribly mutated freak chapter to get rid of it for good (i'm pretty sure there are several examples of this exact incident occurring). They wouldn't want to propagate mutation by using an impure progenoid.

 

So based on this what reason would they have for even differentiating the 1000 different progenoids they receive. It seems to me like they'd just take the 9 original geneseeds (imperial fists, ultramarines, dark angels, ect) and then compare all the other geneseeds to these and if they were different they'd throw them in the garbage. If they were the same they'd go okay this is the same as the Ultramarine geneseed, and then throw it in a bin with all the other Ultramarine geneseed even if it was from the Nova Marines, or White Consuls, or any other Ultramarine derived chapter.

 

I'm not trying to inflame the argument but I could see either side being true. One reason it would make sense for them to differentiate between chapters even if the geneseed was genetically identical would just be so they could fairly balance out the duties of training new chapters. Like them saying to the parent chapter "okay we picked your geneseed this founding so now you have to go raise a little brother chapter for a few years." and then next founding they'd pick different chapters to do it. Just as a way to keep things balanced and organized I guess.

 

Any official info on which side of this is true. I know it doesn't really matter in the end but it's kind of interesting.

[Ecritter]

Lets look at it from another angle for a moment. Each Chapter sends Geneseed to Mars for testing and storage. This Geneseed is used if the Chapter suffers heavy losses and needs to grow rapidly ... correct?

 

Now if only Geneseed from the original 9 Legions were kept for this purpose that would cause a major problem. Take the Ultramarines for example. They would have to provide Geneseed for +/- 60% of the Chapter. So they'd be providing Geneseed for well over 600 Chapters. If this were the case, they'd not be able to do anything other then be a Geneseed bank.

 

Think of it, 1000 marines providing Geneseed for 600 thousand marines ... practical? No.

[dspur15]

pri·mo·gen·i·tor (prm-jn-tr) n.

 

1. The earliest ancestor.

2. An ancestor or forebear.

 

Dorn is thier Ancestor. His genetic material was used to grow the original Geneseed, before it was ever placed in a boy that would become an Imperial Fist. The Geneseed came first, not the Legion.

 

You are correct. However, your limiting the word to having one meaning when it does not (just look at the second definition). I mean they are basically two sides of the same coin. Dorn is just as much there ancestor as every other Imperial Fists who's ever lived. I understand you're thinking in terms of FIRST ancestor though which is fine. I just said the Imperial Fists because I was thinking of it in terms of chapters and not individuals. Technically primogenitor can refer to a specific singular ancestor (primarch) or a group of ancestors (legion). Like a modern example would be my primogenitor John Doe came here from Ireland in 1905 (he's my first known singular ancestor) and started my family in the US. I could also say that my primogenitors (plural) were a group of hominids in Africa 75,000 years ago. There both factually true, the word is just used differently to refer to a whole group or a specific individual.

 

If you want to use it to refer to the primarch that's fine. I will probably keep using it to refer to the original chapter though because I feel like when your describing a chapter it's simple to just state who there primarch is. You can just say "Primarch- Rogal Dorn" but as to who they came from I think it's cooler to say "Primogenitor- Imperial Fists" versus something like "Chapter of Origin- Imperial Fists."

 

I mean like I said you can pretty much interchange the word Primarch and Chapter when talking about a chapters origin. The Primarch did come first so you should simply be able to leave it at that and expect people to know which legion was associated with this primarch. Not everyone may know this though so for the sake of clarity it's useful to also name the legion

 

Anyway, in the end we are both right so cheers to us :lol:

[dspur15]

Lets look at it from another angle for a moment. Each Chapter sends Geneseed to Mars for testing and storage. This Geneseed is used if the Chapter suffers heavy losses and needs to grow rapidly ... correct?

 

Now if only Geneseed from the original 9 Legions were kept for this purpose that would cause a major problem. Take the Ultramarines for example. They would have to provide Geneseed for +/- 60% of the Chapter. So they'd be providing Geneseed for well over 600 Chapters. If this were the case, they'd not be able to do anything other then be a Geneseed bank.

 

Think of it, 1000 marines providing Geneseed for 600 thousand marines ... practical? No.

 

 

I believe that each chapter is responsible for maintaining there own geneseed bank for the purpose of replenishing their own ranks. The geneseed sent to Mars or Terra or whatever is simply a tithe (tithe means 1-of-10 parts or 10%, historically it was religious term, like in Judaism a 10% tithe is expected on all income or even agricultural produce to this very day). The genetic tithe is also an opportunity to screen the Chapter for signs of mutation, degredation and other debilitations, ensuring that purity is maintained and so keeping alert as to when Chapters are faltering in their genetic integrity. That means that the other 90% of geneseed is kept by the chapter itself (either inside it's brothers or stored away in the vaults of it's fortress monastery)

 

 

What your saying does make some sense though because I believe that in extreme cases geneseed can be requisitioned from the Ad Mech by a chapter whose geneseed bank has been destroyed (Crimson Fists are a perfect example of this). Now the problem I have with what your saying is that your assuming that the different chapters have different geneseeds. Like I said in another post if the Ad Mech discovers a chapter has submitted geneseed that does have mutations they are normally investigated or even destroyed by the Inquisiton. Some chapters like, for instance, the Black Dragons are a loyalist Chapter that has developed a number of obvious physical mutations. In order to diminish the amount of attention directed towards this by higher authority, they ask "which ten percent?" and deliver to the Adeptus Mechanicus geneseed selected only from its healthy brethren.

 

One thing you said though is that you thought me or someone else meant that only the 9 original chapters would be able to provide geneseed for other chapters. That's not what I meant at all. Rather every chapter can only submit pure geneseed to the Ad Mech without triggering suspicion of mutation. That would mean that all the geneseed would be genetically identical with those of the original legion and chapter, any 2nd founding successor, or any other descendant chapter for the past 10,000 years. If it wasn't it wouldn't be accepted.

 

I would reason that no matter which specific chapter a marine gets his geneseed from as long as it's from the same Primarch it's interchangeable with that of any other chapter who also shares this primarch. This is because the Ad Mech actively seeks out and destroys mutated geneseed and wouldn't allow genetically dissimilar progenoids to be kept in the vaults. So if all the geneseed is supposed to be identical with it's respective primarch what would be the point of keeping it separated and encouraging the continuation of mutation within an existing chapter or even causing mutation in a newly founded chapters via corrupt progenoid?

[Ecritter]

You are correct. However, your limiting the word to having one meaning when it does not (just look at the second definition). I mean they are basically two sides of the same coin. Dorn is just as much there ancestor as every other Imperial Fists who's ever lived. I understand you're thinking in terms of FIRST ancestor though which is fine. I just said the Imperial Fists because I was thinking of it in terms of chapters and not individuals.

 

Ah but you forget that the Crimson Fist are their ancestor as well. Any chapter that came before another is its ancestor, so you're limiting the definition as well. :P

[dspur15]

Ah but you forget that the Crimson Fist are their ancestor as well. Any chapter that came before another is its ancestor, so you're limiting the definition as well. :D

 

You are correct sir. So I guess it would be fair for a chapter to use the term progenitor to describe the Primarch, the original legion, and any other chapter they're descended from. That kind of works out perfectly in the sense that you could claim their progenitor is whatever chapter they share the strongest identity with. I think that's a pretty happy compromise for everyone

[Ferrata]

Think of it like this, a chapter could go "We are the Furious Guard, sons of the Brazen Swords, sons of the Malevolent Marauders, sons of the Star Knights, sons of the Wicked Paladins, sons of the Snapping Spectres...[upto say twenty-two times]...sons of the Ultramarines. We are sons of Guilliman." :D

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

I think, in the end, it's down to the chapter itself who they personally consider their closest (genetically or otherwise) ancestor is and whether they venerate their parent chapter, the chapter that trained them or their Primarch.

 

As such, in the end, it's down to the author and how he views his chapter.

 

I also think this line of disagreement should be put aside for now as it's successfully derailed the topic.

[dspur15]

I think, in the end, it's down to the chapter itself who they personally consider their closest (genetically or otherwise) ancestor is and whether they venerate their parent chapter, the chapter that trained them or their Primarch.

 

As such, in the end, it's down to the author and how he views his chapter.

 

I also think this line of disagreement should be put aside for now as it's successfully derailed the topic.

 

Agreeded. I kind of helped hijacked my own thread ;)

 

So does anyone have any thing else to say about my newly revised Obsidian Fists chapter?

[dspur15]

DELETED

[Ferrata]

I've merged your two main threads into one and changed the name. Donations can be sent in the post for thank yous :D

 

With the showing of the company markings, I've been thinking about this lately as I've had a similar problem. You generally have these options:

1. Don't show the company
   
2. Chest Eagle colour
   
3. Helmet stripe
   
4. Knee pad (or band on the padless)
   
5. Should Trim (on one or two)
   

I think those are the normal ones, but you could do something out of left field like weapon casing or the top bit on the backpack

[dspur15]

Alright, thank you. I wasn't sure what the proper etiquette was on that. I just deleted my above post and moved the color scheme up to my original post so people could find it easily. I hope that's alright. I guess I might as well just make this my IA page from now on and edit it as needed. That's how that works right. I'm a forum noob and I don't want to anger the almighty moderator :D

 

With the showing of the company markings, I've been thinking about this lately as I've had a similar problem. You generally have these options:

Don't show the company

Chest Eagle colour

Helmet stripe

Knee pad (or band on the padless)

Should Trim (on one or two)

 

So what's with the number on the knee pad thing? I literally just found out about that today. I was looking at the community DIY chapter the Obsidian Hunters under Markings Part I, and the poll said that company is indicated by a numeral on the left knee pad, and then on Markings Part II it said this was indicated with Roman Numerals. Then when I went on the SM painter it was on there too. I'm not a very experienced person when it comes to the details of modeling but I had never heard of this before.

 

All I had heard of was the shoulder trim from the Codex and maybe a knee pad or stripe on the leg like you said. I kind of like the idea of just using a number though because in actual military terms that makes alot more sense than having to remember a color plus from a modeling perspective it allows you to stick with your color scheme for the whole chapter but still differentiate between companies.