Huron Blackheart.

[Warsmith Aznable]

I can think of three sources I've read for Huron, one of them being C:CSM. There was a short story I read about an Astral Claw who tried to betray Huron. I can't remember which anthology it was in, but Huron is at a sort of "high but not ridiculous" level of power, though he is set to offer up the souls of billions of Imperial citizens in what I assumed was a quest for daemonhood. The other short story is in Heroes of the Space Marines anthology, titled "The Skull Harvest", which I think is a Graham McNeil story. Huron is presented as being a much stronger figure, having enormous stature (even for a Space Marine), suddenly appearing seated on his throne in a room full of crowded people with nobody seeing how he did it, and an sort pf psychic presence that unnerves even other Chaos Lords. Not to mention he has the clout to gather a force of 17,000 warriors for somebody else to take as their own. And while there are gathered these many thousands of Chaos warriors and their Chaos Lords, none dare challenge Huron's authority. Granted, McNeil gained a bit of infamy when it comes to establishing power level in fiction with his Ultramarine series, but still, it's a source. I'm left to believe that Huron is well above the "average" Chaos Lord in both personal power and military strength.

[TheDarkApostle]

The first story is "Into the Maelstrom" which can be found in a compendium of short stories called "Into the Maelstrom" :P

 

TDA

[Rik Riorik]

Huron is a cool cat no doubt about it and the Badab War is immensly interesting. The only things Ive read on Huron are from current and past Codici and something in a City Fight expnsion book.

 

Cant wait to get my mittens on the Badab War Imperial Armour books when it is deemed economically prudent. The whole thing with the Hamadrya or whatever it is his little buddy is called is a part I a especially interested in.

 

The Astral Claw model of him, for all intents and purposes is kick arse.

[the jeske]

how is it possible to gather 17k marines under the nose of WB and not be destroyed . The WB destroyed othe renegade chapters before and those were never over 1k man . the bigger a force is the more resources it needs to work and they are not infinite . If huron has a bigger [legion sized] fleet/army then the fuel ammo , sacrifice have to come from somewhere . Even the targets for attacks are limited . If hurons "legion" raid a FW the it is dead target for the WB.

 

IMO it makes little sense to me .

[Supreme Overlord]

how is it possible to gather 17k marines under the nose of WB and not be destroyed . The WB destroyed othe renegade chapters before and those were never over 1k man . the bigger a force is the more resources it needs to work and they are not infinite . If huron has a bigger [legion sized] fleet/army then the fuel ammo , sacrifice have to come from somewhere . Even the targets for attacks are limited . If hurons "legion" raid a FW the it is dead target for the WB.

 

IMO it makes little sense to me .

 

Not to mention gathering 17,000 marines in under 100 years. It makes little sense to me too, but considering some of the fluff thats been released over the past few years, its not the first time fluff hasn't made sense. :cuss

 

Maybe Huron pays tribute to the Word Bearers, or has made a network of alliances with other warlords to deter the WB from attacking?

[Lord Ragnarok]

how is it possible to gather 17k marines under the nose of WB and not be destroyed . The WB destroyed othe renegade chapters before and those were never over 1k man . the bigger a force is the more resources it needs to work and they are not infinite . If huron has a bigger [legion sized] fleet/army then the fuel ammo , sacrifice have to come from somewhere . Even the targets for attacks are limited . If hurons "legion" raid a FW the it is dead target for the WB.

 

IMO it makes little sense to me .

 

 

1. Are we assuming 17k "Warriors" are all astartes?

2. You assume WB are against what Huron is doing. Perhaps they are feeding his ambitions. He after he escaped Badab he through his lot fully with the powers of chaos.

3. All the leaked GK codex states is that hey has the power to rival the traitor legions. Do we have exact Legion numbers?

4. I see a constant trickle of single marines and squads flocking to Huron. This will add up.

5. I think folks always assume loyalist traitors, but what about traitor's traitors :cuss . Another source of asartes recruits.

[Candleshoes]

how is it possible to gather 17k marines under the nose of WB and not be destroyed. The WB destroyed othe renegade chapters before and those were never over 1k man ... If huron has a bigger [legion sized] fleet/army then the fuel ammo , sacrifice have to come from somewhere .

 

Word, and in 100 years no less.

 

I have a quote from Henry Zou's latest "Blood Gorgons" novel that has to do with potential rivals treading within their realm:

 

"Someone has touched my chattel and property. We don't turn a blind eye. We hit them with the weight of our entire arsenal and inject the fear of angry gods into them." -- Sabtah the Older

 

The circumstances of the WB letting 100 year thinbloods have their property are, questionable at best.

[Warsmith Aznable]

The story describes a variety of types of Chaos warriors, not just Astartes, so there is that.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

If we assume the Word Bearers are still Legion-sized (and therefore in the six-digit number department) even now, 17,000 "warriors", be they Astartes or not, probably wouldn't even be worthy of their notice, especially if condensed into what amounts to a raiding fleet cobbled together out of flotsam in the Maelstrom. The Sons of Lorgar would have no use for such rabble, nor would they even remotely care about their fate. If Huron stings the Imperium every now again, good for him, at least he was astute enough to see through the lies of the False Emperor and his brainwashed cronies.

 

But the Word was not written for the likes of him. No matter how many victories he tallies, he's still just a bug to the Word Bearers if they can muster the numbers they used to be able to.

[Supreme Overlord]

Well, seeing as the Bearers have been around for ten thousand years, I would say they would have at least their former numbers, if not more. As explained in the geneseed thread, Chaos's recruiting process is much better! (if a lot more...brutal)

 

But personally, if a fly (Huron) was buzzing about, I would squish it before it became a real nuisance.

 

Oh, and the Red Corsairs are stealing valuable recruits! Any renegade Marines are potential followers of the Word, and the more troops we have, the easier we can tear down the false realm of the corpse Emperor!

[Clewz]

if we go off the Daemon World novel the maelstrom is a pretty big area of space and theres lots of different factions floating about.

[the jeske]

You assume WB are against what Huron is doing. Perhaps they are feeding his ambitions. He after he escaped Badab he through his lot fully with the powers of chaos.

I have yet to see an empire that tolerates something new growing in their back yard. If something like that happens in either means the empire is crumbling or that is another empire , a much stronger one , supporting it.

 

Do we have exact Legion numbers?

we know the size of the smallest ones and those were 20k+ . even if post heresy size was taken it would be 10k+ more .

Now considering that renegades rarly have a full chapter when they go chaos , it is as if 10+ chapters sided with huron. And in chaos terms this means being forced to do so . how could a man with less then 200 people line troops with a deplated fleet and almost no resources do that?

 

 

 

I think folks always assume loyalist traitors, but what about traitor's traitors

Only the legion that are there are the WB and WB activly hunt down single "traitors" . If 4-5 [so 2-3 hosts] went over to hurons side , the maelstorm would see a war a bit like the legion war post horus heresy , only ona bit smaller scale.

[RapatoR]

You assume WB are against what Huron is doing. Perhaps they are feeding his ambitions. He after he escaped Badab he through his lot fully with the powers of chaos.

I have yet to see an empire that tolerates something new growing in their back yard. If something like that happens in either means the empire is crumbling or that is another empire , a much stronger one , supporting it.

 

Do we have exact Legion numbers?

we know the size of the smallest ones and those were 20k+ . even if post heresy size was taken it would be 10k+ more .

Now considering that renegades rarly have a full chapter when they go chaos , it is as if 10+ chapters sided with huron. And in chaos terms this means being forced to do so . how could a man with less then 200 people line troops with a deplated fleet and almost no resources do that?

 

Stangest things can happen when you are charismatic leader blessed by dark gods and have focus and no command issues in your ranks.

Sometimes I feel like only thing Legions can do is to talk about glorious past and how they fought in Horus heresy and have 10 000 years veterans among them and so on. In this manner Legions are like potatoes. The best parts are underground.

[the jeske]

Stangest things can happen when you are charismatic leader blessed by dark gods and have focus and no command issues in your ranks.

yes and the first thing that happens after you are charismatic leader trying to build an army near an already big long standing force is either assasination or total war.

WB have 0 issues with command , they structure was always firm unlike any other legion , save maybe the BL durning the legion wars.

 

Sometimes I feel like only thing Legions can do is to talk about glorious past and how they fought in Horus heresy and have 10 000 years veterans among them and so on. In this manner Legions are like potatoes. The best parts are underground.

0_o . yes because crusades or scourging of entire sub sectors was done by 400-600 renaged space marines . legions not only subjageted worlds and seeded them for chaos [unlike the raids that renegades do] , but even when they "just" destroyed it was on a galactic scale . I mean the WE are broken up and look what angron did before they stoped him in armagedon.

[master_forcide]

yes and the first thing that happens after you are charismatic leader trying to build an army near an already big long standing force

Where does it say the Word Bearers have a "big long standing force" in the Maelstrom anyway? "Index Astartes: Dark Apostles" mentions that they're active there, but doesn't give details. Imperial Armour vol. 9 only mentions them once IIRC, when Huron's Astral Claws team up with the Black Templars to capture a few of the planets influenced by the Word Bearers. Huron Blackheart has been the Lord of the Maelstrom, and one of the most significant Chaos Lords, since at least 2e, with the latest Chaos codex, Grey Knight codex, Imperial Armour, and "The Skull Harvest" all reaffirming this.

[Lord Ragnarok]

You assume WB are against what Huron is doing. Perhaps they are feeding his ambitions. He after he escaped Badab he through his lot fully with the powers of chaos.

I have yet to see an empire that tolerates something new growing in their back yard. If something like that happens in either means the empire is crumbling or that is another empire , a much stronger one , supporting it.

I've never heard that the WB had exclusive rights in the Maelstrom. From my understanding it is large enough for more than just one empire.

 

Do we have exact Legion numbers?

we know the size of the smallest ones and those were 20k+ . even if post heresy size was taken it would be 10k+ more .

Now considering that renegades rarly have a full chapter when they go chaos , it is as if 10+ chapters sided with huron. And in chaos terms this means being forced to do so . how could a man with less then 200 people line troops with a deplated fleet and almost no resources do that?

I'm more concerned with post heresy numbers after attrition coupled with possibly much more difficult logistics/ability to create new marines

 

 

 

I think folks always assume loyalist traitors, but what about traitor's traitors

Only the legion that are there are the WB and WB activly hunt down single "traitors" . If 4-5 [so 2-3 hosts] went over to hurons side , the maelstorm would see a war a bit like the legion war post horus heresy , only ona bit smaller scale.

You are assuming we are just talking inside the Maelstrom. Traitor loyalist make it into the Maelstrom to join the RC's, certainly traitor chaos marines can make it there as well.

[Warsmith Aznable]

And the fact remains that Huron is a named character in the codex, so make of that what you will. I take it to mean that he is the most significant renegade, and I imagine that he's doing what he's doing with the blessing of the Ruinous Powers. Whatever beef the Word Bearers have with upstarts, surely the obvious favor of the Gods of the Warp isn't something they wouldn't notice.

[RapatoR]

Stangest things can happen when you are charismatic leader blessed by dark gods and have focus and no command issues in your ranks.

yes and the first thing that happens after you are charismatic leader trying to build an army near an already big long standing force is either assasination or total war.

WB have 0 issues with command , they structure was always firm unlike any other legion , save maybe the BL durning the legion wars.

I have to disagree, look at the Eye of terror. Although thats what happened in Maelstorm: Hurons flagship is captured from WB. And secondly, WB settled in Maelstorm arent big force, they came here after events of Calth and were frequently beaten by Astral Claws and other Loyalists. WB were stationed among other countless pirates and warbands and time to time launched attack. Huron came and absorbed huge numbers of warbands/pirates. Thats what I call focus.

And one more thing

Lexicanium: "Word Bearers have remained a unified, if loosely organised, military force" from when it does mean force with 0 issues in command?

 

Sometimes I feel like only thing Legions can do is to talk about glorious past and how they fought in Horus heresy and have 10 000 years veterans among them and so on. In this manner Legions are like potatoes. The best parts are underground.

0_o . yes because crusades or scourging of entire sub sectors was done by 400-600 renaged space marines . legions not only subjageted worlds and seeded them for chaos [unlike the raids that renegades do] , but even when they "just" destroyed it was on a galactic scale . I mean the WE are broken up and look what angron did before they stoped him in armagedon.

Yes because no renegade warband ever participated in scuorgings crusades? Did you ever read of The Purge? No world seeded for choas by renegades? What about fluff from 4ed dex or battle of Vraks? Leader of the entire force was leade of Skulltakers. In addition large amount of them still have their homeworld.

[Lay]

Where does it say the Word Bearers have a "big long standing force" in the Maelstrom anyway?

And secondly, WB settled in Maelstorm arent big force,

It's a "large contingent" according to the 3.5 CSM Codex, pg.7. And according to their Index Astartes article, their homeworld in the Maelstrom, the factory world Ghalmek, is one of the legion's two primary bases (the other being Sicarus).

 

Also, in the novel "Daemon World", the Word Bearers see themselves as a cohesive force. To one of them, the idea of tolerating renegade Word Bearers would mean that they'd eventually become no better than the piratical Astral Claws.

[Pyroriffic]

One of the appeals of Huron Blackheart is the fact that he's obviously been making Dodgy Deals [tm] left, right and centre with an assortment of interesting Chaos powers. And whilst he openly displays the eight-pointed star, he never implies allegiance to any one. He's a proper Champion of the Ruinous Powers.

 

And he's nasty. I like that about him. I always did go for the Wrong Kind of Man.

 

~S~

[TheDarkApostle]

WB have 0 issues with command , they structure was always firm unlike any other legion , save maybe the BL durning the legion wars.

And one more thing

Lexicanium: "Word Bearers have remained a unified, if loosely organised, military force" from when it does mean force with 0 issues in command?

Loosely organised does not mean that there's no chain of command. It only means that there's a great variaity in how each battleforce is made up.

 

Each Dark Apostle draws his own tactical, or sometimes non-tactical, conclusions all depending on what visions or how there morning cereal floated the day before. So no host will be like the other.

 

Never have there been any implication that there would ever be someone in the Legion trying to usurp someone of higher rank, unlike other legions. The IA goes as far as to claim that every single Marine of the Legion would unflinchinly march into the teeth of the enemy if the Dark Apostle gives the order, or as the article better words it: The only stop to a Word Bearer attack is the command of the Dark Apostle, or when every last Word Bearer lies dead.

 

Also, I'd like to know more about this fluff about Huron's flagship being a Word Bearer cruiser. Last I heard it was his own since his time as the Astral Claw's Chapter Master...

 

And before I forget. Yes, the Maelstrom is a extremely huge space, being a natural overlap to the Warp unlike the Eye which was created by the birth of Slaanesh. Also IIRC there's at least a dozen of Ork empires located in there with several old systems being absorbed and spit back out every now and then giving birth to a multitude of strange things.

 

TDA

[Lay]

Also, I'd like to know more about this fluff about Huron's flagship being a Word Bearer cruiser. Last I heard it was his own since his time as the Astral Claw's Chapter Master...

It's from the Index Astartes IV article about renegade Chapters:

"Huron Blackheart maintains a substantial fleet consisting of vessels captured over numerous engagements, ranging from a single Adeptus Astartes battle-barge, a number of Strike Cruisers, many and varied escorts and a huge number of classes of interceptors and bombers. It is claimed that the vessel used now as Huron's command ship was salvaged after having been found drifting on the edge of the Maelstrom. Some claim the ship is a vessel formerly of the Word Bearers traitor legion, but few give such claims any credence."

[Lord Ragnarok]

One of the appeals of Huron Blackheart is the fact that he's obviously been making Dodgy Deals [tm] left, right and centre with an assortment of interesting Chaos powers. And whilst he openly displays the eight-pointed star, he never implies allegiance to any one. He's a proper Champion of the Ruinous Powers.

 

And he's nasty. I like that about him. I always did go for the Wrong Kind of Man.

 

~S~

 

Making deals will line him up well with the Imperial Armor books. He was a very busy tyrant and I see that times 1000 with no Imperial leash trying to tame him.

[TheDarkApostle]

"It is claimed that the vessel used now as Huron's command ship was salvaged after having been found drifting on the edge of the Maelstrom. Some claim the ship is a vessel formerly of the Word Bearers traitor legion, but few give such claims any credence."

 

Saying it can be pretty much anything between heaven and earth and material plane and warp plane...

 

TDA

[Notanoob]

Yes because no renegade warband ever participated in scuorgings crusades? Did you ever read of The Purge? No world seeded for choas by renegades? What about fluff from 4ed dex or battle of Vraks? Leader of the entire force was leade of Skulltakers. In addition large amount of them still have their homeworld.

I got to say I find using Zufor as an example of how awesome renegades are seems rather silly, as he's a more recent traitor who joined the World Eaters and rose through their ranks and has all the same rules as one would expect from a World Eater...he seems more like a Legionary to me.