Huron Blackheart.

[Pyroriffic]

"It is claimed that the vessel used now as Huron's command ship was salvaged after having been found drifting on the edge of the Maelstrom. Some claim the ship is a vessel formerly of the Word Bearers traitor legion, but few give such claims any credence."

 

Saying it can be pretty much anything between heaven and earth and material plane and warp plane...

 

TDA

 

And that, right there, is what makes everything so much fun. Something that's not set in concrete is a writer's joy to bat about gleefully. Ambiguity is a great tool.

 

~S~

[the jeske]

Yes because no renegade warband ever participated in scuorgings crusades?

and how many rengades did scourgings alone ? full blown wars where you dont just raid and run ? even the awesome huron had to trick white scares to burn a single agri world .

 

legions do operations on a scale chapters cant even think about .

 

 

"Huron Blackheart maintains a substantial fleet consisting of vessels captured over numerous engagements, ranging from a single Adeptus Astartes battle-barge, a number of Strike Cruisers, many and varied escorts and a huge number of classes of interceptors and bombers. It is claimed that the vessel used now as Huron's command ship was salvaged after having been found drifting on the edge of the Maelstrom. Some claim the ship is a vessel formerly of the Word Bearers traitor legion, but few give such claims any credence."

and am asking how . after badab he had what 200 marines and almost no fleet. you dont create a force by joining forces of the same size or bigger . And if he actually did attack a WB fleet[capital ships never work alone] and win , he would now have the WB on his back which more or less means he and his force would be dead .

 

I understand him creating a pirate fleet . All renegades do that . I could even understand that with time[although his force is very fresh in the maelstorm] the fleet could be big [for a renegade one]. But legion sized ? 17k meq under him ? are there even that many renegades there ?

 

 

What about fluff from 4ed dex or battle of Vraks?

which fluff in 4th ed dex and vraks is FW , and vraks was taken by chaos . WB had seeded worlds , this means they were moved intact in to the warp in physical form . renegades neither have the resources nor the power to do stuff like that.

 

 

Leader of the entire force was leade of Skulltakers.

because mindless lobotimized zerkers that were broken up post legion war actualy do tactics and stuff like recruting or accapting non legion leaders . It is as If a line unit got an officer fresh out of officer school .

[master_forcide]

and am asking how . after badab he had what 200 marines and almost no fleet. you dont create a force by joining forces of the same size or bigger . And if he actually did attack a WB fleet[capital ships never work alone] and win , he would now have the WB on his back which more or less means he and his force would be dead .

I guess you don't become Lord of the Maelstrom without breaking a few eggs.

[RapatoR]

Yes because no renegade warband ever participated in scuorgings crusades?

and how many rengades did scourgings alone ? full blown wars where you dont just raid and run ? even the awesome huron had to trick white scares to burn a single agri world.

 

legions do operations on a scale chapters cant even think about .

And Badab war was a really small operation of course....

When someone tricks other one it doesnt mean he is weak it does mean he is smart. And fluff from "Into the Maelstorm" is notoriously unreliable.

 

"Huron Blackheart maintains a substantial fleet consisting of vessels captured over numerous engagements, ranging from a single Adeptus Astartes battle-barge, a number of Strike Cruisers, many and varied escorts and a huge number of classes of interceptors and bombers. It is claimed that the vessel used now as Huron's command ship was salvaged after having been found drifting on the edge of the Maelstrom. Some claim the ship is a vessel formerly of the Word Bearers traitor legion, but few give such claims any credence."

and am asking how . after badab he had what 200 marines and almost no fleet. you dont create a force by joining forces of the same size or bigger . And if he actually did attack a WB fleet[capital ships never work alone] and win , he would now have the WB on his back which more or less means he and his force would be dead .

 

I understand him creating a pirate fleet . All renegades do that . I could even understand that with time[although his force is very fresh in the maelstorm] the fleet could be big [for a renegade one]. But legion sized ? 17k meq under him ? are there even that many renegades there ?

First of all 100 years is plenty of time, buinlding a warband isn a geological process. Secondly Abby with Black legion "fled onboard their remaining space barge into further exile" after destroying Horus clones, so he pretty much have to do the same as Huron. Thirdly, I think that religious WBs would hardly want to attack someone surrounded by dark miracles and favour of dark gods. And why should someone of WB should care for destruction of other warband? Please dont tell me they asr such a good friends with strong sense of honor so they always avenge their fallen brothers. And if they are really hunting down WB "traitors" why are Sanctified still around?

 

And again look at the EoT, why there is possible to build a large force without being destroyed while in Maelstorm it isnt? Especially when it contains 20+ ork empires, hrud infestations and countless human pirates why it shouldnt contain even 20k+ meq?

 

What about fluff from 4ed dex or battle of Vraks?

which fluff in 4th ed dex and vraks is FW , and vraks was taken by chaos . WB had seeded worlds , this means they were moved intact in to the warp in physical form . renegades neither have the resources nor the power to do stuff like that.

Obscuran uprising, Constantius iconoclasm,The Fall of Khartoth, the League of Deliverance, the Cycle of Restitution, the Reign of Blood, the Fourth Quadrant Rebellion, A planet of steel near cadia that was at first taken by NL was later taken by two renegade warbands which means they have to beat warbands from traitor legions first, Fall of Vilamus, Four warbands listed in taking place in battle of Vraks were renegades

 

Leader of the entire force was leade of Skulltakers.

because mindless lobotimized zerkers that were broken up post legion war actualy do tactics and stuff like recruting or accapting non legion leaders . It is as If a line unit got an officer fresh out of officer school .

Yes lets just ignore that he was already a sergant before he was captured....

[Lord_Caerolion]

First of all 100 years is plenty of time, buinlding a warband isn a geological process. Secondly Abby with Black legion "fled onboard their remaining space barge into further exile" after destroying Horus clones, so he pretty much have to do the same as Huron. Thirdly, I think that religious WBs would hardly want to attack someone surrounded by dark miracles and favour of dark gods. And why should someone of WB should care for destruction of other warband? Please dont tell me they asr such a good friends with strong sense of honor so they always avenge their fallen brothers. And if they are really hunting down WB "traitors" why are Sanctified still around?

 

Except Abaddon had the remnants of a Legion to build from, Huron had, and this is being generous, 350 Marines.

[TheDarkApostle]

First of all 100 years is plenty of time, buinlding a warband isn a geological process. Secondly Abby with Black legion "fled onboard their remaining space barge into further exile" after destroying Horus clones, so he pretty much have to do the same as Huron. Thirdly, I think that religious WBs would hardly want to attack someone surrounded by dark miracles and favour of dark gods. And why should someone of WB should care for destruction of other warband? Please dont tell me they asr such a good friends with strong sense of honor so they always avenge their fallen brothers. And if they are really hunting down WB "traitors" why are Sanctified still around?

 

Except Abaddon had the remnants of a Legion to build from, Huron had, and this is being generous, 350 Marines.

And Abaddon is THE chosen of the Dark Gods.

 

Not one of the chosen but THE one.

 

Also once more, finding and salvaging a broken ship drifting on the edge of the Maelstrom does not equal attacking a Legion fleet and taking it by force...

 

TDA

[Rik Riorik]

And he's nasty. I like that about him. I always did go for the Wrong Kind of Man.

 

I guess you could do worse. Barely.

 

 

On the note of the actual topic at hand the fluff goes where the fluff needs to go. If something happens that seems unbelievable it is made believable by the sheer fact of it actually taking place. That's a nice rule of thumb. Shouldn't be used to allow for sloppy writing though, but if you look hard enough at something you're always going to find things that you think could add up better. The choice is then either to fill in the blanks with your own imagination to make it work or not to.

[Son of Rawl]

I think it is GWs way to give Chaos Renegades more influence in the current timeline like the current codex, Abaddon is the chosen of Chaos and Warmaster of the Legions while Huron is becoming the lord of all the renegades that hate the Imperium but not exactly full chaos.

 

Remember according to the fluff chaos are nothing more than scattered warbands now of disgruntled marines who hate the way they have treated by their chapter or where they have been stationed, not the legions we know and love.

[Lord Ragnarok]

First of all 100 years is plenty of time, buinlding a warband isn a geological process. Secondly Abby with Black legion "fled onboard their remaining space barge into further exile" after destroying Horus clones, so he pretty much have to do the same as Huron. Thirdly, I think that religious WBs would hardly want to attack someone surrounded by dark miracles and favour of dark gods. And why should someone of WB should care for destruction of other warband? Please dont tell me they asr such a good friends with strong sense of honor so they always avenge their fallen brothers. And if they are really hunting down WB "traitors" why are Sanctified still around?

 

Except Abaddon had the remnants of a Legion to build from, Huron had, and this is being generous, 350 Marines.

 

But Abaddon, is definitely not known for his charisma or honey'd tongue. Huron is getting constant recruits on top of consolidating normal human pirate reavers and any other projects on creating or getting new marines. Per the Imp Armor books, Huron was pushing very hard to create a very large army. That was his focus before, and with no reigns except for ability, he would certainly try to do that after his defeat.

[Rik Riorik]

Remember according to the fluff chaos are nothing more than scattered warbands now of disgruntled marines who hate the way they have treated by their chapter or where they have been stationed, not the legions we know and love.

 

No that is not the fluff. That is partof the fluff just like it was in earlier editions. The fact that fluff and rules about Legions have taken the backseat when it comes to what is entailed within the current Chaos 'dex does not mean that previous editions worth of fluff in the Chaos 'dexes are suddenly invalidated. Take it for what it is. An expansion on the fluff.

 

That said, yes of course the Legions are by and large not coherent big masses of tens of thousands of Marines but instead much smaller armies under different Lords, but that is not to say that the concept of Legions is no longer of interest. You'll still find loads and loads of Legion specific warbands.

[Hellios]

Remember according to the fluff chaos are nothing more than scattered warbands now of disgruntled marines who hate the way they have treated by their chapter or where they have been stationed, not the legions we know and love.

 

No that is not the fluff. That is partof the fluff just like it was in earlier editions. The fact that fluff and rules about Legions have taken the backseat when it comes to what is entailed within the current Chaos 'dex does not mean that previous editions worth of fluff in the Chaos 'dexes are suddenly invalidated. Take it for what it is. An expansion on the fluff.

 

That said, yes of course the Legions are by and large not coherent big masses of tens of thousands of Marines but instead much smaller armies under different Lords, but that is not to say that the concept of Legions is no longer of interest. You'll still find loads and loads of Legion specific warbands.

 

Also on Riks point it seems to differe from legion to legion. The Word Bearers, Iron Warriors and Black Legion seem to be fairly intact (or rebuilt) with either overall commanders who are respected (feared!?!?) or a few larger hosts (Which may consist of a number of warbands). The Black Legion also seems to be able to get other Legions (or parts of said legions) to do what it wants.

 

I imagine the World Eaters, Emperors Children and Night Lords to be pretty broken up and in some cases low on numbers as well (compared to some of the other legions).

 

The 1ksons are pretty small and broken into at least two factions... the deathguard are also broken into at least two factions but I'm not sure about size.

 

As for the Alpha Legion... who knows :P

[Prot]

Allow me to add on my crappy two cents on the end of this discussion...

 

For me, the Red Corsairs and specifically Huron were the only shining light of the Gav-Dex. While they are fail in the codex, I strongly believe Huron is a sign of the future for Chaos.

 

The following is my logic only:

 

Huron and Abaddon are both extremely powerful, and gifted by Chaos. But Abaddon represents the old guard.... He has ancient warriors of extreme skills, and knowledge of days gone by. Be that as it may, they are dwindling. Some die, some are reborn, some are just downright nuts. The original Legions hold on to a way of life that may be passing them by. War is inevitably taking a toll....

 

Huron is the 'new' chaos. Huron in charasmatic... intimidating? Hell yea, but polictically so. I believe he represents the new way of Chaos marines in general. He is a prime recruiter, and his personality is that of a Warlord that leads with an iron fist, and a razor sharp, toothy grin behind it all.

 

If I were a Chaos uber-god looking to hitch my wagon up with someone that's going to sell some girl scout cookies to the imperium, I'd vote Huron.

[Lexington]

But legion sized ? 17k meq under him ? are there even that many renegades there ?

Er, where are we getting this "17,000 Marines" figure from? Warriors =/= Space Marines, necessarily.

[Warsmith Aznable]

But legion sized ? 17k meq under him ? are there even that many renegades there ?

Er, where are we getting this "17,000 Marines" figure from? Warriors =/= Space Marines, necessarily.

 

On the preceding page I mentioned that not all of the 17,000 warriors were Astartes. In the time running up to the competition in the referenced story there are descriptions of everything from Traitor Guard to Astartes to wild stuff that the author made up, like the troupe of Chaos sword-acrobat-assassins. There are even xenos mercenaries. The competition is infamous, so only the truly hard or the truly crazy would participate, but that doesn't mean their warriors are all top tier. I mean, Traitor Guard are definitely not MEQ. It is still my assumption, since Warsmith Honsou plans to use this force to raid Ultramar of all places, that the quality of this 17,000 must be reasonably up to the task. Honsou isn't a fool; Honsou is a Warsmith of the Iron Warriors, an intelligent and calculating strategist. This leads me to conclude that there is a reasonable chance that this force of 17,000 not-all-or-maybe-even-most-Astartes warriors is capable of extreme amounts of calamity, much more than a simple collection of villainous scum of the galaxy. I seriously doubt that they're actually up to the task of taking out the Ultramarine's little empire, but I don't doubt they will commit some legendary atrocity within Ultramar.

[Rik Riorik]

I didnt really care all that much for Huron before this thread. That is not say say that I didnt like him just that he didnt really interest me. I really liked the model they made for him at the release of the new Codex and the change in paint scheme for the Red Corsairs that also came at the same time though. But the fluff for him, despite the fact that the Badab War is referenced quite alot in many places, failed for some reason or other to capture my imagination.

 

But this thread has really changed that, very much so because of the two writers seemingly going to task with fleshing him and the Corsairs out and the discussion and replies their imput has had here.

 

Now I find I am actually quite interested in getting to know this feller better . I am definetly going to get the two Badab War books from the Imperial Armour series and I might even go and have a look at the two Black Library books about him when they come out. The latter of which is no small feat because beyond the Horus Heresy books Ive never really felt any want to read stuff from the BL.

 

Just goes to show that the hobby, even where the background is concerned really comes alive with the people who enjoy it.

 

Thanks for setting my imagination alive! Ive ven got a few ideas for my own army from reading this thread. :-)

 

EDIT. Writing on a touch screen cell phone really does suckle donkey bollocks doesnt it? Hopefully found all spelling mistakes and taken them out now.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

A few things - Huron's flagship is a Space Wolf ship. Short story in the current codex.

2 - The Word Bearers clearly don't care about who gains power in the Eye - or if they do, they probably want Huron to have succeeded. They are powerful enough to run things like that, and the only true threat to that happening would be Black LEgion (for obvious reasons) or possibly the Alpha Legion (but I don't know how organised they are). None of the others have Lorgar's geneseed, so they I doubt that the Word Bearer's are concerned about him stealing recruits, as they have never absorbed other warbands and renegades anyway.

 

3 - Black Legion probably care about Huron's forces... but not enough to actually do anything, or maybe because they simply have too many marines they don't have an effective method of taking out that large of a force without Abbaddon himself stepping in (and Abbaddon has other things on his mind).

 

The other legions are mostly broken up. The Thousand Sons are effectively immortal, being able to come back and all, but they don't always have the means to in large amounts, outside of Ahriman, who is exiled. The Emperor's Children are too broken up and a fair few probably serve Huron himself, in the pursuit of excess. The Death Guard and the World Eaters have similar issues to the Emperor's Children. The Iron Warriors have a powerful force, but they probably see Huron as a major distraction for the Imperium as opposed to a potential threat. Night Lords are also greatly broken up, to the point that they are more of a psychological threat than an actual military threat. Alpha Legion... They haven't fought as a major force for a long time, as far as I'm aware, and prefer to undermine the Imperium rather than engage in all out war like Huron and Abbaddon.

 

 

In summary, I doubt Huron will be crushed by any of the legions, unless he becomes a true threat to them. The Legions that are powerful enough to destroy him are content to let this fly strike at the Imperium so long as he focuses on that, and not them.

 

EDIT: clarification.

[Hyaenidae]

As for the Alpha Legion... who knows ;)

 

Funny, I always had this weird feeling that Huron (or at least his little critter that follows him around) was an Alpha Legion plant in an attempt to de-stabilize the defences around the Maelstrom. Just a feeling, mind you, nothing to support this really besides that it wouldn't be the first time the AL had infiltrated a loyal chapter. It could also explain how Huron gets all sorts of fun equipment, as the AL re-directs and falsifies orders and reports so that loyalists continue to stumble into his traps. Meh...just a thought.

[Candleshoes]

I doubt Huron will be crushed by any of the legions, unless he becomes a true threat to them.

 

I think this is the crux of the debate over the last page or so. It is also mired with a lack of perspective, as no one here can accurately say what the organized Legions perceive as a "true threat".

 

That aside, realistically, Jeske is on the right track. Huron's collected specifics were written poorly and not really meant to come under such close scrutiny, post Badab. The idea and direction is great, but the specifics, quite frankly, don't add up, especially against the timeline and the politics of the area in question.

 

Pyro says ambiguity is great, but in such wide-sweeping doses, this works out to be the new author just rewriting the poorly written sentences that formed the idea, which I am all for.

 

As for the 17,000 number, even if 75% of that was traitor guard/mercenaries/cultists/slaves etc (what but cattle...), and they limped back from the Badab conflict with say, 250 marines and a dying Huron, that means they raised roughly 17 times the their number, in 100 years, less if you take Huron's recovery into consideration. 4,000 Battle ready Astartes raised in that time frame, all the while fighting non-stop to gain their Corsair reputation and taking losses ... Drink in all those half battle companies every year, more if you take losses into consideration.

 

Even for a Tyrant as politically animal as Huron, this is not possible. However, I have no doubt in my mind, a novel's worth of info can easily solve this.

[TheDarkApostle]

4k Chaos Astartes isn't entirely implausible actually. Especially after that last story with Huron and Honsou by Graham McNeil.

 

Where a call goes out to a ton of different warbands and everyone meet up on a planet or something and all the leaders meet and Huron manage to get them all to swear him loyalty, if at least temporarily.

 

That's the gist of it, IIRC at least.

 

TDA

[Pyroriffic]

Quick question, Dark Apostle - are you referring to the Wolf of Fenris? I don't think it's stated that this is the illustrious Mr. Blackheart's flagship; merely that it was his 'greatest prize'. The Wolf is a strike cruiser that he captured and added to his armada. As I'm nowhere near my codex at this second, I can't double-check that so am perfectly happy to be corrected on that point.

 

Personally, I like the idea that he doesn't have a permanent base of operations but that he prefers to move himself around a bit. If squeaky-clean Loyalists are looking for a specific vessel all the time, it makes it far too easy to track him down. He's smarter than that.

 

Also, bear in mind that The Gildar Rift isn't an 'origins' level story, but the telling of an encounter between the Silver Skulls and the Red Corsairs.

[TheDarkApostle]

Which Dark Apostle are you talking to Pyro?

 

Thirst or me?

 

TDA

[Brother Nathan]

4000 marines in 100 years isnt hard. normal marine chapters take that to do 1000, but chaos dosent have the same need of perfect wrriors that the imperium does. plus chaos uses techniques that are quicker than other chapters. heck even loyalist blood angels can make a marine in a year... so it is possible. also they can recruit other warbands to their cause. all things considered those ways, 4k seems quite small...

[RapatoR]

Candleshoes I see yout point, but I wouldnt be so sceptic. Hitler built an entire ermy in less than 20 years and all that happened in much more crowded place than Maelstorm.

[Pyroriffic]

Which Dark Apostle are you talking to Pyro?

 

Thirst or me?

 

TDA

 

Argh!

 

Curse my 3 hours sleep and cat-waking-up moments, I didn't notice there was more than one of you!

 

*flail*

 

T'other one... ;)

[TheDarkApostle]

Candleshoes I see yout point, but I wouldnt be so sceptic. Hitler built an entire ermy in less than 20 years and all that happened in much more crowded place than Maelstorm.

Then again that wasn't very hard for him to do.

 

TDA