Huron Blackheart.

[Supreme Overlord]

Candleshoes I see yout point, but I wouldnt be so sceptic. Hitler built an entire ermy in less than 20 years and all that happened in much more crowded place than Maelstorm.

Then again that wasn't very hard for him to do.

 

TDA

 

Rounding up some able-bodied men and training them is a lot easier than rounding up the best of the best, putting them through the most horrific tests imaginable and then (assuming they survive) re-engineering their genetic makeup etc etc. Plus, I think a rifle would be much easier to manufacture than a boltgun. :)

 

I think the main point is, it is quite unrealistic that Huron managed to muster such an army in so short a time with the information that we currently know. However, given some clarification, some more information, or something along those lines, I'm sure it could be made to make sense.

[Candleshoes]

Hit the nail on the head Supreme Overlord.

it is quite unrealistic that Huron managed to muster such an army in so short a time with the information that we currently know.

 

Not that he couldn't do it, just that more is needed for it to really be a clear picture.

[the jeske]

how ? unless he somehow subjagated legion troops [which would mean WB , which would mean his force would be dead by now] there arent enough sm going traitor to join him .

17k considering chapters will go traitor at half strengh , then it is 34 chapters . and all those chapter would either have to go rogue at the same time or wait till huron comes with 0 lose of man[in the warp where war is constant] or they would have to spread a big recruting action [which only bile or legions can do] .

 

I mean we could say that it is magic , that somehow a dude with 300 marines and almost no fleet got up to a legion sized force in a short time . But what kind of an anwser is that ?

[Clewz]

well the maelstrom is a mini eye of terror so its possible time moves in a different way there as well

[TheDarkApostle]

well the maelstrom is a mini eye of terror so its possible time moves in a different way there as well

Considering that the Maelstrom came FIRST I wouldn't really call it a "mini Eye of Terror".

 

As I quote from the 3,5 edition Chaos 'dex:

 

"Located approximately forty thousand light years to the galactic east of Terra, the Maelstrom is an area of space riven with warp storms so intense that stellar travel in the region is all by impossible. Unlike the Eye or Terror, the Maelstrom is, as far as Imperial scholars can ascertain, a naturally occurring phenomenon.

 

With travel so difficult, the entire region has become a haven to the pirates, criminals and renegades of the galaxy. Space within the Maelstrom is a lawless wilderness containing an estimated twenty plus Ork empires, numerous Hrud infestations, and countless human pirate strongholds. It is also said to house a large continent of Word Bearer Chaos Space Marines who fled there in the wake of the Horus Heresy. The region swirls with warp-energies that permeate it's worlds, the evil of Warp space slowly poisoning those mad enough, or desperate enough, to reside within.

 

At the time of the Great Crusade, the Emperor's armies attempted to penetrate the Maelstrom and cleanse it of the evils lurking within. Hundreds of warships and thousands of troops were lost in the campaign, and with the rest of the galaxy to re-conquer, the Emperor declared the region Purgatus."

 

I've underlined what I found to be of extra interest to the discussion.

 

TDA

[the jeske]

well the maelstrom is a mini eye of terror so its possible time moves in a different way there as well

 

 

doesnt change the fact that somehow those 17k marines would have to become renegades and get there and wait for huron do his rebelion [while at the same time not dieing, no killing each other , not losing dudes durning raids etc] .

 

Also I wonder how huron could even get a big [non legion] sized fleet. I mean here we have a leader that just lost more or less everything[almost including his life] , he has no real [300 marines is not more then a renegade army would have and it is nothing compering to what the WB would have there] army or fleet , how does he force others to become their leader. I understand abadon . BL lost hard vs the EC so he does the whole mass possesion thing , burns the horus clones , the fact that the WE and EC more or less destroy each other helps a lot here.

[Brother Nathan]

yesbut who said they were all renegades? and that all 17k are full astartes...in all lkelyhood, if hes as hungry for revenge as i think hell use many means to find make and steal recruits with differing skills for differing purposes...

[Marshal Wilhelm]

So I have a few questions about Huron and the Red Corsairs.

 

Just how 'Chaos' are they?

 

I know this might come across provocative on the Chaos forum, but when I saw they were lumped in with C:CSM I was a bit sad.

We already have 9+ flavours of Chaos Marine, do we really need Black Legion lite in another part of the universe?

 

Another 'we are Chaos, Chaos is strong' bunch of Marines? Gah!

 

I had hoped on them being more like pirates and renegades than Chaos Marines.

 

GW reads a bit like McCarthyism on Chaos. 'If you are human and not Imperial, you are a Red Chaos'

 

I think GW fluff sorely lacks the dynamic interaction that I think all other SciFi settings have ~ role play with Xenos. Why have them if they are just bolter fodder? Very beige, imo.

 

If they interacted with the Tau and Eldar [perhaps even Dark Eldar, if they are feeling lucky] that would be full of potential.

They could hire themselves out as Mercs to those forces and even to Imperial worlds [of course not those with Marines or Sisters]

 

Much cooler, imo.

 

+++

 

So, hopefully my post is not received as trollish and people can shed some light on my questions :)

[Lord Ragnarok]

Wilhelm, after he was defeated and almost killed it is said he through his lot in with chaos.

 

It is also implied that this recovery is miraculous and that he was able to recover due to making a pact with the dark ones.

 

He certainly is a pirate, but his ambition is too much to be happy with that(my opinion). Couple that with maniacal vengeance I doubt stealing ships is the totality of his ambition.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

So, hopefully my post is not received as trollish and people can shed some light on my questions :)

 

Totally trollish. Crows will eat your eyes for this. :D

 

If you're looking for anti-Imperium, not-so-Chaos Marines, might I suggest the Soul Drinkers arc and Blood Gorgon. It's a pretty good bet that Huron has gone over completely, possibly due to the influence of the hamadrya (which I notice has not been mentioned in this thread as perhaps having something to do with his survival, successes, and otherwise impossible feats).

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Quick question, Dark Apostle - are you referring to the Wolf of Fenris? I don't think it's stated that this is the illustrious Mr. Blackheart's flagship; merely that it was his 'greatest prize'. The Wolf is a strike cruiser that he captured and added to his armada. As I'm nowhere near my codex at this second, I can't double-check that so am perfectly happy to be corrected on that point.

I don't know, I can't seem to find my Chaos Codex :lol: I think you may be right, and I misinterpretted...

[Kor Megron]

Anyways pardon me, I just finished reading all 5 pages of this discussion, A D-B and Pyro I'm very much looking forward to your respective novels, and I think I may be sold on my next army (Red Corsairs have captured my attention and interest it seems.)

 

I would say at best guess, only 20% of the 17,000 "Warriors" are Astartes, and that's being generous, which equates to 3,400 marines, more realistically its probably between 10-15% of the 17,000.

 

The Maelstrom is a big place, and I highly doubt there are still 50,000 Word Bearers there.

 

Legion estimates (once again being generous)

Black Legion - 80k (Divided into many Warbands)

Word Bearers - 60k (Split 50/50 between the Eye of Terror and the Maelstrom, divided into Hosts)

Iron Warriors - 40k (Divided into Grand Companies)

Night Lords - 20k (Divided into many Warbands)

Alpha Legion - Unknown (Probably around 80k, but scattered throughout the Imperium)

Death Guard - 30k (Able to recruit only by corruption, divided into many Warbands)

Emperor's Children - 20k (Divided into many Warbands)

Thousand Sons - 30k (Can't recruit, there aren't two factions, Ahriman and his coven are a small group, Legion still unified)

World Eaters - 10k (Divided into many many Warbands)

 

My two cents.

 

P.S. Kor Phaeron has been trying to off Erebus for 10,000 years.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

So, hopefully my post is not received as trollish and people can shed some light on my questions :)

 

Totally trollish. Crows will eat your eyes for this. B)

 

If you're looking for anti-Imperium, not-so-Chaos Marines, might I suggest the Soul Drinkers arc and Blood Gorgon. It's a pretty good bet that Huron has gone over completely, possibly due to the influence of the hamadrya (which I notice has not been mentioned in this thread as perhaps having something to do with his survival, successes, and otherwise impossible feats).

 

Poor old Huron. Just another chess piece. *sigh*

 

What or who is Blood Gorgon?

 

+++

 

I guess you wouldn't have heard it in the Eye, but on more than one planet I am known as The Eater of Crows :P

 

They also call me Trollor, but they don't get to say that to me twice :P

 

I ask them nicely to stop :P

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Blood Gorgon is the third of Henry Zou's Bastion Wars novels, featuring the Blood Gorgons Chapter of Space Marines.

 

Also, to all the people arguing sensible and logical points.. This is 40k; since when did it have to make sense?

[gizur]

The Alpha Legion 80k? i dont think so the Ultra´s ande the Word Bearer where the biggest legions through the Heresy and both hab ca. 100k Marines.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

The Alpha Legion 80k? i dont think so the Ultra´s ande the Word Bearer where the biggest legions through the Heresy and both hab ca. 100k Marines.

 

The Ultramarines had closer to 200,000 and were by far the largest, only the Word Bearers could come close.

 

 

It's speculated in The First Heretic that the sudden increase in number for the Ultramarines was directly related to the two Lost legions.

 

[Hellios]

Thousand Sons - 30k (Can't recruit, there aren't two factions, Ahriman and his coven are a small group, Legion still unified)

 

I'm not sure that the 1ksons are that numerous... They were already on the small side as legions go, very few survived prospero and we don't really know what happened to those located off world or sent off by magnus in the 1ksons fleets... unless this has been covered somewhere and I missed it although I wouldn't be surprised to find some made it into the eye...

 

Then take that some of them mutated into mindless spawn before the rubric was caste and that sorcerers have been killed in conflicts since then... The real strength of the legion is in its sorcerers (they can create more rubrics if needed) and that only pretty powerful psychics survived the rubric... even within the sons this leaves you with a pretty small number of sorcerers.

 

So I would put forward that while minor faction, Ahrimans cabal is significant due to small size of the legion (and limited number of sorcerers) and also because of the potency of some of those in his cabal. Ahriman might well be the most powerful sorcerer around apart from from some Daemon princes who may be bight be better (I take it for granted Magnus is better).

[the jeske]

I dont think they can create new rubrics , they can always rise 1ksons that fell before even durning the burning of prospero [at least that what madok says ] . so technicly as long as there is at least one of them they can always bring back the whole legion. now the cost of it of course huge. but at least technicly they could.

[Kor Megron]

Alpha Legionnaires are sneaky, and the fact they operate within the Imperium means they have access to normal recruiting still, thus over the past 10,000 years I could see them being rather large, plus, how many times have you seen the AL go to war on the scale the BL does normally? (DoW doesn't count as the portrayal of the AL in that game was just wrong)

[Marshal Rohr]

I've imagined that Huron is like Caeser in New Vegas. He is so successful because when he absorbs a new warband he breaks it apart and indoctrinates it to be loyal to him above any previous ties. I dont feel like there would be many cult units in his domains because he has always seemed more or less a warlord instead of a believer. He punishes disloyalty in gruesome ways to keep the others in line.

 

I just like the idea of an 'evil' Roman Legion to counter balance the Chaos Crusaders of the Word Bearers and the Chaos Barbarians of the Black Legion.

 

This universe needs at least one disciplined chaos force.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

I've imagined that Huron is like Caeser in New Vegas. He is so successful because when he absorbs a new warband he breaks it apart and indoctrinates it to be loyal to him above any previous ties. I dont feel like there would be many cult units in his domains because he has always seemed more or less a warlord instead of a believer. He punishes disloyalty in gruesome ways to keep the others in line.

 

I just like the idea of an 'evil' Roman Legion to counter balance the Chaos Crusaders of the Word Bearers and the Chaos Barbarians of the Black Legion.

 

This universe needs at least one disciplined chaos force.

Word Bearers aren't Chaos Crusaders, being extremely disciplined and lacking almost any defection. Iron Warriors are even more so, having no ties to anything but themselves, and their leaders feel no qualms about punishing those who don't fall in line.

 

If anything, Huron's forces are much less disciplined, being made up of such a wide variety of parts that it's almost impossible to formally organise them (based on the Short Story in Heroes of the Space Marines).

[Pyroriffic]

If anything, Huron's forces are much less disciplined, being made up of such a wide variety of parts that it's almost impossible to formally organise them (based on the Short Story in Heroes of the Space Marines).

 

I'm totally with this. Huron may be able to field a large force, but there's a lot of internal issues that mean they don't fight together as a proper unit. There isn't the sense of brotherhood and belonging that exists amongst other Chapters, even some of the traitor ones. As AD-B has said somewhere, even First Claw are brothers, even towards the ones they don't like very much.

 

Personally, I'm happy with the idea that Huron is happy to employ human cultists and slaves as cannon fodder. Not much of a distraction when you throw them out against other Astartes - but a useful slowing-down tactic nonetheless.

[Spacefrisian]

SOome things that are overlooked in this topic should be adressed.

 

-The piece of fluff might come from the same guy who thought that Blood Angels and Necrons joining up would be fun.

 

-Gw put a dummy on the web of the GK dex to see the responses, this might be the same case.

[Hellios]

SOome things that are overlooked in this topic should be adressed.

 

-The piece of fluff might come from the same guy who thought that Blood Angels and Necrons joining up would be fun.

 

-Gw put a dummy on the web of the GK dex to see the responses, this might be the same case.

 

Even if it is not a dummy, the version I was looking at had what looked like editors notes on it and some bits that looked like they were waiting for some artwork... not the finished iteem I would say... So it is very possible even if real that this fluff wouldn't be in it. However Huron is an interesting topic as king of the new guys XD.

 

As for Matt Ward... man he has creeds tactical genius but rather than sneaking tanks into places he sneaks in horrible fluff... alas we can't ignore it on those grounds... although we can try ^_^.

[Lord Ragnarok]

If anything, Huron's forces are much less disciplined, being made up of such a wide variety of parts that it's almost impossible to formally organise them (based on the Short Story in Heroes of the Space Marines).

 

I'm totally with this. Huron may be able to field a large force, but there's a lot of internal issues that mean they don't fight together as a proper unit. There isn't the sense of brotherhood and belonging that exists amongst other Chapters, even some of the traitor ones. As AD-B has said somewhere, even First Claw are brothers, even towards the ones they don't like very much.

 

Personally, I'm happy with the idea that Huron is happy to employ human cultists and slaves as cannon fodder. Not much of a distraction when you throw them out against other Astartes - but a useful slowing-down tactic nonetheless.

 

It aligns him well with IA10 fluff with respect to the "Tyrant's Legion".

 

I'd expect the remnants of those Astral Claws who escaped would be a fanatical and utterly loyal force for the Blood Reaver however. But such can be said for other Chaos forces. Human fodder will be only so reliable.

 

 

 

I would say at best guess, only 20% of the 17,000 "Warriors" are Astartes, and that's being generous, which equates to 3,400 marines, more realistically its probably between 10-15% of the 17,000.

 

I tend to agree, however the size of the marines depends on how many recruits he has been getting since he resurfaces as a threat (927.m41) So about 72 years of recruitment and loss from battle which is hard to account. 5 Traitor recruits a year, 20, 50? We know from the SM codex that he invades several systems, including Chogris, in 988 so there would have probably been a zenith of recruitment before and then there would be substantial losses. I've not heard of any outcome from this invasion, so don't know if it was a rout. (Would be bad for White Scars if the RC's were successful.)