Candleshoes Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 There isn't the sense of brotherhood and belonging that exists amongst other Chapters, even some of the traitor ones. I couldn't agree more with you. I think this is also one of the Red Corsair's greatest weaknesses amongst their peers. Loyalty and tradition, blood calling to blood will only go so far amongst the surviving Astral Claws... the "recruits" over year, the real traitors, have no tie to this. Yes they are now a Corsair, but as the pirate saying goes, there is no honor among thieves, and their internal problems will be very different than those of the Legions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223024-huron-blackheart/page/6/#findComment-2676901 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDarkApostle Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 I can think of three sources I've read for Huron, one of them being C:CSM. There was a short story I read about an Astral Claw who tried to betray Huron. I can't remember which anthology it was in, but Huron is at a sort of "high but not ridiculous" level of power, though he is set to offer up the souls of billions of Imperial citizens in what I assumed was a quest for daemonhood. The other short story is in Heroes of the Space Marines anthology, titled "The Skull Harvest", which I think is a Graham McNeil story. Huron is presented as being a much stronger figure, having enormous stature (even for a Space Marine), suddenly appearing seated on his throne in a room full of crowded people with nobody seeing how he did it, and an sort pf psychic presence that unnerves even other Chaos Lords. Not to mention he has the clout to gather a force of 17,000 warriors for somebody else to take as their own. And while there are gathered these many thousands of Chaos warriors and their Chaos Lords, none dare challenge Huron's authority. Granted, McNeil gained a bit of infamy when it comes to establishing power level in fiction with his Ultramarine series, but still, it's a source. I'm left to believe that Huron is well above the "average" Chaos Lord in both personal power and military strength. Ok, having read up on the story from which this whole mess started: Those 17k warriors (warriors as in a mix of Astartes, human renegades, AND XENOS) WASNT Huron's from the beginning. What happened was: Huron have an annual party called "Skull Harvest". It's an open participation. The rules are simple, kill the leader of a warband and that warband is now yours. That means none of the warbands belonged to Huron to begin with as the only way for Honsou to have taken control of them would have been to kill Huron. Also to establish control on such an event is not really hard. Just have the biggest space fleet and threat to bomb the whole planet into oblivion if they try anything fishy. So, finally: This whole mess of Huron having had 17k Astartes is false. TDA Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223024-huron-blackheart/page/6/#findComment-2677153 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 ust have the biggest space fleet and threat to bomb the whole planet into oblivion if they try anything fishy. only after badab huron had almost no fleet to speak off . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223024-huron-blackheart/page/6/#findComment-2677554 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 ust have the biggest space fleet and threat to bomb the whole planet into oblivion if they try anything fishy. only after badab huron had almost no fleet to speak off . But he has one now. It first started when he defeated the human reavers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223024-huron-blackheart/page/6/#findComment-2677624 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 I've imagined that Huron is like Caeser in New Vegas. He is so successful because when he absorbs a new warband he breaks it apart and indoctrinates it to be loyal to him above any previous ties. I dont feel like there would be many cult units in his domains because he has always seemed more or less a warlord instead of a believer. He punishes disloyalty in gruesome ways to keep the others in line. I just like the idea of an 'evil' Roman Legion to counter balance the Chaos Crusaders of the Word Bearers and the Chaos Barbarians of the Black Legion. This universe needs at least one disciplined chaos force. Word Bearers aren't Chaos Crusaders, being extremely disciplined and lacking almost any defection. Iron Warriors are even more so, having no ties to anything but themselves, and their leaders feel no qualms about punishing those who don't fall in line. If anything, Huron's forces are much less disciplined, being made up of such a wide variety of parts that it's almost impossible to formally organise them (based on the Short Story in Heroes of the Space Marines). Uh yeh, Word Bearers are Chaos Crusaders. It silly to think otherwise. There isn't the sense of brotherhood and belonging that exists amongst other Chapters, even some of the traitor ones. I couldn't agree more with you. I think this is also one of the Red Corsair's greatest weaknesses amongst their peers. Loyalty and tradition, blood calling to blood will only go so far amongst the surviving Astral Claws... the "recruits" over year, the real traitors, have no tie to this. Yes they are now a Corsair, but as the pirate saying goes, there is no honor among thieves, and their internal problems will be very different than those of the Legions. Why not? Why cant Chaos forces share a brotherhood built in combat? Why cant they be a disciplined military fighting force? Its ridiculous to think that they cant. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223024-huron-blackheart/page/6/#findComment-2680983 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 Word Bearers aren't Chaos Crusaders, being extremely disciplined and lacking almost any defection. Iron Warriors are even more so, having no ties to anything but themselves, and their leaders feel no qualms about punishing those who don't fall in line. If anything, Huron's forces are much less disciplined, being made up of such a wide variety of parts that it's almost impossible to formally organise them (based on the Short Story in Heroes of the Space Marines). Uh yeh, Word Bearers are Chaos Crusaders. It silly to think otherwise. Um, I tend to think of them as fanatic true Chaos Marines - arrogant, selfish, remorseless, with a healthy dosing of willingness to betray and quite a bit of worship to the Dark Gods. Chaos Crusaders is too depthless for my taste. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223024-huron-blackheart/page/6/#findComment-2681185 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candleshoes Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Why not? Why cant Chaos forces share a brotherhood built in combat? Why cant they be a disciplined military fighting force? Its ridiculous to think that they cant. You misunderstand. The comparison I used was specifically against the 70 year old Red Corsairs, and the 10,000 year old functioning Legions, not "general chaos forces". Sure, "brotherhood built in combat" as you say can exist in the RC, to a point, and to a certain end, but the hatred, blood, goals and traditions of the 10,000 year old parent Legions is something that the RC will never know or have. This lack of history or depth is what allows the RC to be such effect pirates, to not have to step on toes or deliberate in order to go ahead and move forward. It is what allows them to achieve so much, in such a short amount of time, in comparison to the Traitor Legions, who's established ways and hierarchy don't allow the freedom the renegades have. It would be ridiculous to think that the brotherhood shared by the Traitor Legions would be the same as the Red Corsairs though, they are completely different animals. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223024-huron-blackheart/page/6/#findComment-2681215 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supreme Overlord Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 This lack of history or depth is what allows the RC to be such effect pirates, to not have to step on toes or deliberate in order to go ahead and move forward. It is what allows them to achieve so much, in such a short amount of time, in comparison to the Traitor Legions, who's established ways and hierarchy don't allow the freedom the renegades have. They may be able to achieve much in a short amount of time, but at the same time, the Corsairs lack the stability and survivability that the legions have (well, at least the relatively intact ones). Though we won't see it, it would be interesting to see if the Red Corsairs manage to survive more than a few centuries. I would say once Huron died, it would take a whole lot of luck for somone equally fearsome/charismatic etc to rise amongst the Corsairs and take over. And even if one did, it wouldn't be without lots of bloodshed and infighting, and groups splitting off etc. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223024-huron-blackheart/page/6/#findComment-2681435 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitefireinferno Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 I personally think Evil jesus Vader is pretty bad ass fully my tied Fave SC*him and Khârn* out of the Chaos Codex I have been considering starting a RC force just because I can Butcher me some Defilers into mini war hounds But then again it is another Red army something I would like to avoid :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223024-huron-blackheart/page/6/#findComment-2681437 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyroriffic Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 I would say once Huron died, it would take a whole lot of luck for somone equally fearsome/charismatic etc to rise amongst the Corsairs and take over. And even if one did, it wouldn't be without lots of bloodshed and infighting, and groups splitting off etc. Ooh yes, this. Definitely this. Huron is outstandingly packed to the gunwhales with charisma. He's a complete arse, but he's a charismatic arse. It's why he became so powerful so quickly. More personality in his left fingernail than Roboute Guilliman had in the whole of his... wait, that's not the best example. But you get where I'm coming from. For me, the Corsairs already have an element of infighting. The former Astral Claws probably get along fine, but over the years, they've acquired mongrels from many other Chapters and that probably doesn't sit overly well with them. Particularly not if one of the upstarts makes a name for himself and gets noticed by Ol' Slobberchops. Such as this fellow here: Taemar had never truly garnered that much respect from his peers, not even when he had repeatedly demonstrated his prowess on the battlefield and his uncanny ability to dispose of any competitors for Blackheart's favours. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223024-huron-blackheart/page/6/#findComment-2681473 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Charismatic enough to sucker three Chapters of Astartes into joining his cause. The Gildar Rift should showcase that talent quite nicely. ^_^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223024-huron-blackheart/page/6/#findComment-2681499 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 I dont think that the huron rebelion had to do anything with charisma . It was a matter of highlords trying to force an sm chapter to give more then law says they should . If someone had tries to rise the geen seed tax on ultramarines the same would happen[only of course it wouldnt , as then it would be a imperium wide sm rebelion]. look at the story line for the badab war , the first chapters that went after the rebels didnt realy want to fight them [because if the same happened to them they would have acted the same]. That is why the high lords of terra had to get more blood thirsty/crazy marines to get the job done. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223024-huron-blackheart/page/6/#findComment-2681519 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rik Riorik Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 look at the story line for the badab war , the first chapters that went after the rebels didnt realy want to fight them [because if the same happened to them they would have acted the same]. The active choice of going renegade through siding with Huron is a lot tougher to make than just doing as ordered. Whilst they might have been employing the "ask questions first and shoot later if need be"-tactic I'd think actually siding with Huron was not done matter of factly simply because of a possible future situation where those Chapters might be forced to supply more gene seed than they would necessarily want to. Huron could/would definetly have played a hand in convincing them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223024-huron-blackheart/page/6/#findComment-2681606 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Charismatic enough to sucker three Chapters of Astartes into joining his cause. The Gildar Rift should showcase that talent quite nicely. :( I have not read any sucker-age in the IA books. Executioners for example owed the Astrals a blood debt after the Astrals saved their butt. The executioner's nature is based heavily on honour and they helped the astrals despite any misgiving on attacking other loyal marines. Keep in mind this is before they knew the extent of the Astrals"dishonor" which absolved them of their debt. The Lamenters had a bursh with ordo malleus after not destroying a chaotic hulk in an efficient manner. Huron probably just applied some "honeyed tongue" to an already angry Warders of the Maelstrom force. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223024-huron-blackheart/page/6/#findComment-2681901 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perry Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 This lack of history or depth is what allows the RC to be such effect pirates, to not have to step on toes or deliberate in order to go ahead and move forward. It is what allows them to achieve so much, in such a short amount of time, in comparison to the Traitor Legions, who's established ways and hierarchy don't allow the freedom the renegades have. They may be able to achieve much in a short amount of time, but at the same time, the Corsairs lack the stability and survivability that the legions have (well, at least the relatively intact ones). Though we won't see it, it would be interesting to see if the Red Corsairs manage to survive more than a few centuries. I would say once Huron died, it would take a whole lot of luck for somone equally fearsome/charismatic etc to rise amongst the Corsairs and take over. And even if one did, it wouldn't be without lots of bloodshed and infighting, and groups splitting off etc. Time flows strongly in the Warp, Huron might have ruled for millennia from his fortress planet inside the Maelstrom, giving him time to rebuild and consolidate his power, also there is no mention of what equipment and supplies he escaped with, he could have got away with a huge stash of Geneseed taken during the Badab war and used Human cultures inside the Maelstrom as recruits Huron was also a rather high profile celebrity, Im sure traitor marines and heretics across the galaxy might have heard about him and made their way to fight under his banner Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223024-huron-blackheart/page/6/#findComment-2682012 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 I have not read any sucker-age in the IA books. If the trend in one of our other threads is correct, and SMs are psycho-doctrinated at creation towards obedience and loyalty, it would have taken more than an IOU and some sweet talk to turn entire Chapters of them against the Imperium, even if said turning was cloaked in the deception that they were serving the Imperium and even if all Huron had to convince were the respective Masters. Credit where credit is due, the man could probably sell used cars to the Amish. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223024-huron-blackheart/page/6/#findComment-2682322 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyroriffic Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Credit where credit is due, the man could probably sell used cars to the Amish. :cuss Actu-LOL. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223024-huron-blackheart/page/6/#findComment-2682607 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 I dont think that the huron rebelion had to do anything with charisma . It was a matter of highlords trying to force an sm chapter to give more then law says they should . If someone had tries to rise the geen seed tax on ultramarines the same would happen[only of course it wouldnt , as then it would be a imperium wide sm rebelion]. look at the story line for the badab war , the first chapters that went after the rebels didnt realy want to fight them [because if the same happened to them they would have acted the same]. That is why the high lords of terra had to get more blood thirsty/crazy marines to get the job done. Actually, not true. As per Imperial Armour 9, the Fire Hawks were waiting for any chance they could get to attack the Astral Claws, because their Chapter Master had gotten it into his head that Huron had insulted his honour by being given command of a crusade force the Fire Hawk master thought should be his. A trade cartel started making noise because their trade dropped off after Huron declared the entire Maelstrom Zone to be a protrctorate under the Astral Claws, citing Ultramar as precedent, and the Fire Hawks were only too happy to respond to the veiled accusations of treachery. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223024-huron-blackheart/page/6/#findComment-2682620 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candleshoes Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 I agree with those who point out that the situation itself (the players, politics, timing, etc) surrounding Badab and it's participants had as much to do with the events happening the way they did and as far as they did, than the Tyrant's personal influence. To place too much importance on the rise of one man, is to knowingly exclude the reality that man was grounded in, and how much that reality carried him like a tide, a problem we still have today when looking back at our own history. A "safe" example to mirror and bring up on these forums would be Alexander the great, especially when talking about raw charisma. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223024-huron-blackheart/page/6/#findComment-2683015 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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