Help versus Space Wolves

[WhoaDirty]

I have a 1000 point game coming up versus a SW player who is a veteran player of the area. I was hoping to get some advice on how to handle him. He runs something like this at 1000:

 

HQ - Pysker with power that gives him d6 S7 hits.

 

T - 9 Grey Hunters? in Rhino

T - 10 Grey Hunters? in Rhino

T - 10 Grey Hunters? in Rhino

 

HS - Long Fangs with 4 ML in HB Razorback.

 

I'm assuming numbers for the Grey Hunters (because I didn't count them) and I believe he runs strictly Meltaguns as his specials. My plan was to run this:

 

Belial with LC

 

DWT with 3x TH/SS, Apothecary with CML & SB/CF, and Sarge with PW/SB

DWT with CML & TH/SS, TH/SS, Sarge with SB/PW, LC, SB/CF

DWT with CML/LC, 2x TH/SS, Sarge with SB/PW, SB/CF

Landspeeder with MM, TML and HF.

 

I can sub out the Landspeeder for a Whirlwind, and/or one of the squads for a LRC. I think the Speeder will be toast as soon as the Long Fangs fire, but I am not sure the Whirlwind is any goign to be any more effective.

 

We play random rolled missions and on a 4' x 4' table so I am looking for some advice because I just got back into the game. I figure I will try and start every thing on the board forward a bit and fire 8(6) missles a turn into the Rhinos until they crack, then shoot the juicy insides with krak missles? Comments would be greatly appreciated. :)

[Decoy]

I have a 1000 point game coming up versus a SW player who is a veteran player of the area. I was hoping to get some advice on how to handle him. He runs something like this at 1000:

 

HQ - Pysker with power that gives him d6 S7 hits.

 

T - 9 Grey Hunters? in Rhino

T - 10 Grey Hunters? in Rhino

T - 10 Grey Hunters? in Rhino

 

HS - Long Fangs with 4 ML in HB Razorback.

 

I'm assuming numbers for the Grey Hunters (because I didn't count them) and I believe he runs strictly Meltaguns as his specials. My plan was to run this:

 

Belial with LC

 

DWT with 3x TH/SS, Apothecary with CML & SB/CF, and Sarge with PW/SB

DWT with CML & TH/SS, TH/SS, Sarge with SB/PW, LC, SB/CF

DWT with CML/LC, 2x TH/SS, Sarge with SB/PW, SB/CF

Landspeeder with MM, TML and HF.

 

I can sub out the Landspeeder for a Whirlwind, and/or one of the squads for a LRC. I think the Speeder will be toast as soon as the Long Fangs fire, but I am not sure the Whirlwind is any goign to be any more effective.

 

We play random rolled missions and on a 4' x 4' table so I am looking for some advice because I just got back into the game. I figure I will try and start every thing on the board forward a bit and fire 8(6) missles a turn into the Rhinos until they crack, then shoot the juicy insides with krak missles? Comments would be greatly appreciated. :)

 

Given your lack of mobility, there's a good chance he might just run-n'-gun towards an objective and sit on it. The majority of his ranged shooting ignores your Apothecary completely, rendering him a moot point against the majority of the Wolfy firepower. Your Landspeeder will likely get dropped in one turn, if not from the 4 MLs, then from the D6 S7 infinite range Living Lightning. His list seems well-designed to sit back and force you to wade through a withering hail of firepower before entering the 12"-24" Space Wolf "Death zone". His Rhinos enable more mobility for him than you, meaning he's forcing you to waste your first (possibly second) turn firing at largely useless transports, just to reduce his mobility to be on par with yours. Moreover, he'll probably hole up in terrain if at all available, forcing you to assault through cover with your Termies; if you don't, you're standing within rapidfire range that involves a boatload of angry.

 

I'd suggest dropping the Landspeeder entirely, not worrying about a Whirlwind at all; you're only going to have one vehicle on the board, meaning it's a prime target. Since the Launchers can't crack your Termy armor anyways, there's a good chance your Termies will be ignored (perhaps rightfully so) in favor of attacking the one vehicle you have. Be it a Land Raider or a Rhino, there's really no good vehicle to fit this slot.

 

If your opponent plays it smart, he very well might just set up completely polar-opposite of you in an extreme Denied Flank, forcing you to try to blitz to objectives, enabling him to respond to your actions. If his mobility keeps up, he'll outflank and then outfirepower you on the run for objectives; one of his Hunter squads is more than enough to deal with one of your Termy squads.

 

I'd get more into it, but I've got another paper to write. I'll stop back in a few.

[WhoaDirty]

I'd suggest dropping the Landspeeder entirely, not worrying about a Whirlwind at all; you're only going to have one vehicle on the board, meaning it's a prime target. Since the Launchers can't crack your Termy armor anyways, there's a good chance your Termies will be ignored (perhaps rightfully so) in favor of attacking the one vehicle you have. Be it a Land Raider or a Rhino, there's really no good vehicle to fit this slot.

 

What do you suggest doing with the leftover 85 points? I wouldn't have a "free" kill point in the army if it were up to me, but I think it's better than not using 8.5% of my points. The only oher thing I can think of would be to add a Grey Knight BC, but I could only do that if I could find one to buy in time.

[Decoy]

Well, your opponent has a fairly solid anti-Marine list as a whole. Good amount of firepower, good amount of anti-tank (if somewhat short-ranged), and Hunters are naturally good at close combat (at the very least.)

 

The list of HIS that you posted, assuming two Meltas per GH squad, only racks up 825 points. Even if you assume the Banner of the Grey Hunters, it would only barely top 850 points, meaning he's got another 150 points to work with that's a complete unknown. He could have another nearly identical squad of 10 Hunters for that price, or another squad of Long Fangs, or a small squad of Wolf Guard. Hell, he could have two Predators or three Land Speeders, or even three Thunderwolves (or two kitted out T-wolves). That is a HUGE variable, and walking into a game with that sort of unknown factor can really hamper strategy at this point; Almost 20% of his army is completely unknown. If you can, try to find that variable! Gods help you if one of those Grey Hunter packs is, instead, a Wolf Guard pack in Power Armor; With that much spare pointage, he could kit that unit out to be a real killer against you and your Termies.

 

To be honest, that variable is one that's big enough that I can't really help you plan out a pregame strategy. However, what I could tell you regarding that leftover 85 points is largely a moot one; in a DA army, 85 points out of 1000 is a rather large investment, with very small potential return. I'd say drop the Chainfists, keep on basic Power Fists (or Power Weapons, as you see fit.) Perhaps consider dropping the Lightning Claws in exchange for simpler weaponry, perhaps a powerweapon/Stormbolter; To be honest, your opponent outnumbers you by a factor of almost 3:1, and even if you assume that your weapons hit and kill half the time (at I4), he's still going to walk away from that combat with enough of his squad to be an active threat. You need to whittle him at range; Storm Bolters, while underrated, might assist in that endeavor. That should clear up some points, allowing you a slightly larger margin. If you can, (I don't know the D.A. horridly well) I'd suggest picking up a Predator or two. That front armor should deter most of the longer-range firepower, inclusive of the Living Lightning (which can REALLY screw up lighter vehicles.) At this sort of point value, you want to get the most out of your tanks, and a good way to do it is with Predators. I don't know the D.A. equivalent price, but at the price from the Wolf dex, you can get two basic Preds for 120 points. The Autocannon is a good supplement against his light armor and is long-ranged enough to keep out of range of those nasty Meltas. The Predator, too, can take a few hits to the front, especially from Missile Launchers; Glance on 5s, pens only on 6s. Even if he takes a full turn firing his ML Long Fangs into a Pred, it should last at least one more turn (which is one more turn for your infantry to reposition.)

 

If I were in your situation, I'd remember the Number 1 rule of 40K: Annihilation is -ALWAYS- a Victory Condition. Your lack of mobility doesn't mean jack if you can wipe him from the board. Focus your Pred(s) on the Long Fangs while your CMLs take out the Rhinos and Razorback. You have him beat for long range firepower if you can wipe those Long Fangs (and hopefully that Rune Priest while you're at it.) If you wipe the Long Fangs, you can sit back and force him to come to you; Get him to move out of his cover and he's forced to expose himself to that lovely AP3 rocket barrage that your Terminators so lovingly cradle. If you can use a Pred(or two) to draw the fire from his Long Fangs, your Terminators will be largely unmolested.

 

BE ABSOLUTELY SURE that you can win an assault. Wolves hold a lot of nasty CC surprises and the last thing you need is to end up in a combat that you'll spontaneously lose (Remember, a Mark of the Wulfen Grey Hunter can wipe one of your squads ON HIS OWN, and he's likely to be backed up by a PW-wielding monster.) If you can wipe out his long range elements and get him to walk to you, you stand a better chance than if you walk towards him. However, the moment you enter the 12" zone, those Hunters can and will pour enough firepower into your tiny units that they won't stand a chance, even if you get the charge next turn.

 

If you have any further questions, please, ask at your leisure. I'll get back to you tomorrow, as I have two more papers to write before turning in.

 

Also... C'mon, Dark Angels lurkers! I can't be the only one willing to help this guy beat up on my own damned army. :lol:

[Paeniteo Angelus]

Oh man, what a predicament. :P I'm gonna have to agree with Decoy here, the predator would be nice.

 

So following the idea on what to bring considering the predator I do have a couple ideas:

1) Regular with extra armor (85)

2) Drop the chainfists and take the predator with heavy bolter sponsons and a storm bolter (100)

 

Both of the above options would give you that armor, but personally I like the second because, well let's face it, powerfists and thunder hammers are more than enough to handle a rhino chassis in combat. In fact I wouldn't worry about taking chainfists unless you were worried that he would bring a land raider to 1000pts.

 

Other than that your options (as per points) are:

1) Company Master

2) Chaplain (regular flavor *ick*)

3) Techmarine + 10-25pts

4) Company Vets ultra bland

5) Scouts + 5-20pts

6) Tactical Squad + 10pts

7) Devastators + 10pts

 

And of the above options, well... I don't really see any of them being of any particular use, the predator plus your choice of stuffin'z on it is the best choice I think.

 

Good Luck on that match! ;)

[Dremen]

You could also consider dropping the chainfists/thunderhammers in exchange for a squad of scouts with sniper rifles (5 scouts 4 rifles = 100 points). His longfangs can and will hurt you a lot. HIs mobility and firepower at short ranges will be crippling, however, if you can get some decent dice youll be able to pin his Fang or packs with the scouts. I've always played DA as a sit and shoot style army, mixed results of course, and scouts getting a good pin off can turn the tides of battle.

 

That said your best option in general is a Pred. Its tough enough on the front to sit and be, if nothing else, a firemagnet. This'll draw your oponents attention away from other units while you close to hit him hard. That and a Pred. even a bland one, can dish out some pain.

 

Best of luck.

 

-Oh and for the sake of our chapters "history" ask him if he wants to do a commander duel before the game starts, both models in CC, to reinact "The Lion and the Wolf". Do that every game with my local Son of Russ player.

[aekold]

How about the following list:

 

belial equiped to taste.

 

2 terminator squads, equiped as you like. Keep the apothecary however, even a single FNP you make is worth it.

 

5 devastators with 4 missile launchers

 

2 speeders with MM and TML

 

This comes in at around 970 points, depending how you equip your terminators (CML/AC/CF) I would give the terminators 2 CML. This gives you 10 missiles to fire.

 

Your first target should be the long fangs, because they are a threat to your speeders. I believe that when you have taken out the long fangs you have the edge.

[krewl]

How about the following list:

 

belial equiped to taste.

 

2 terminator squads, equiped as you like. Keep the apothecary however, even a single FNP you make is worth it.

 

5 devastators with 4 missile launchers

 

2 speeders with MM and TML

 

This comes in at around 970 points, depending how you equip your terminators (CML/AC/CF) I would give the terminators 2 CML. This gives you 10 missiles to fire.

 

Your first target should be the long fangs, because they are a threat to your speeders. I believe that when you have taken out the long fangs you have the edge.

Apart from the fact that I know this guy this is the advice I love. He just goes, hmm, take that stuff out and you can win, instead of OMG you are in a hard spot here. (that might still be the case as you said he's 1 a veteran, and 2 the SW codex is a good one to build powerfull liksts from)

 

Take note at the missing points your opponent has though, they will change a lot.

I posted another list close to this one;

 

Belial

termies with CML + Chainfist (Chainfists are a 15 points filler, what else can you do with them...)

termies with CML + Chainfist

termies with CML + Chainfist

Typhoon with Multimelta

Typhoon with Multimelta

 

Same advise goes though, this list should be able to hide the typhoons from his long fangs (Who are not able to move to get LOS without losing a shot) and turn 1 you move out and focus fire on the long fangs to remove them from play asap so that your speeder might live.

Take note though on how he deploys, of the fangs are spread wide go for krak missiles, if he bunched take frags. Kraks will kill only 2.75 fangs if he's in cover, if he isn't you have a propper chance at removing 5,556 wounds (Averige rolls ofcourse).

If you can not kill the fangs in one go, keep the speeders out of fang LOS to prevent wasting them and use the 6 ML shots on your termies (Who do not care for AP3 much.)

 

I'd suggest 2 TH& SS termies in each unit for ap2 and 1 hits, chainfist and cml on the one guy, sarge & powerfist guy on the others for wound allocation.

Further Aekold is correct, once you remove fangs you have the range advantage. Also when shooting the LF's remember that if at any point he goes to ground you stop shooting them as they will not do anything next turn, so you are free t focus fire on other targets. (Again the rhino's would be good I feel to reduce his mobility while you keep yours as your force moves 6"and keeps full firepower.

 

Don't know if it's been said before but keep the termies together, able to support each other in firepower and (counter) assault. Very few things can take out a termie squad especially in 1000 points, so if they do drop in a huge unit that can handle a unit of termies it is worth charging with your other 2 units.

[Bartali]

+1 to krewl's list, and my personal preferance would be for all

 

- Concentrate on blowing the Rhinos up first

- Consider DWA'ing Belial's squad close to the Long Fangs

- Start speeders on table if going first, if going second either reserve or keep them out of LOS

[Gaeus Marius]

Is the list you posted set in stone, or do you have room to wiggle? I use my DA as a pretty much Mechanized Infantry Company, and use the DW as a teleporty strike force. I've never used them as a stand alone army without the Ravenwing to provide the mobility, so take this advice for what you want.

You have a hugely outnumbered force here, and it is outnumbered by one of the strongest cc oriented armies out there. It seems like you are geared for an assault, but lack the mobility to get into range without being cut to pieces. you have a lot of TH/SS combinations, which are great for the 3+ save, but will definately strike last, with no bonus for the second cc weapon. I would cut them in favor of SB/PF termies to give you a little long range capabilities, and that much-needed extra attack. I'd add an assault cannon into at least one of my squads too. You need to thin his numbers before you get locked into melee with him, or, based upon the way the SW operate and the sheer number of attacks he can bring, you will lose.

I agree with the idea of at least one Pred. It allows for a decent level of fire support and can cover your advance pretty well. You will need to concentrate on his long range capabilities and greater mobility to even the odds for yourself, as well as simultaniously hitting your objectives. You can do this by using successive bounding with your squads, basic fire and manuever.

All in all, I think you will have a tough time, but it is do-able. He may have you outnumbered and out gunned, but you are the Death Wing after all....

[Paeniteo Angelus]

you have a lot of TH/SS combinations, which are great for the 3+ save, but will definately strike last, with no bonus for the second cc weapon. I would cut them in favor of SB/PF termies to give you a little long range capabilities, and that much-needed extra attack.

 

Um, not to be rude, but the PF/SB terminators have 2 attacks (just like TH/SS), 3 on the charge (just like TH/SS), and have no 2nd powerfist with which to get the bonus attack that you are referencing, so your point becomes a challenge to WhoaDirty to choose between 3++ saves or stormbolters, which if he follows krewl's terminator unit design suggestion then he would have 2 of each in the unit, actually 3 stormbolters since the CML can shoot his if he has one (which does give him quite a balance). :mellow:

[Tanhausen]

I like krewl's list.

 

I agree with Bartali's target priozation (rhinos are VERY important, because when you crack them up, you can assault with terminators or have the GH footslogging).

 

I think Paeniteo is right, storm bolters don't add +1 attack as a pistol would (don't ask me why isn't a SB considered pistol...)

 

Whoadirty, in the grim present, there is only victory! We want a report :lol:

[Grand Master Neo]

storm bolters don't give the added attack because they are effectively twin-linked bolters not a pistol

[WhoaDirty]

Thanks for all the replies.

 

The entirety of his force is in the four vehicle: 3x Rhino + Razorback. Looking through the SW codex and thinking about the match I watched last week, I think he has two HQ, two packs of Grey Hunters, the one unit of Long Fangs and maybe a pack of Wolf Guard. I remember when he was doing wound allocation he mentioned Wolf Guard.

 

So after reading through the suggestions, I picked up a Landspeeder. Hopefully I can get it build before the match ... I'm not exactly fast at building/painting. I will try taking out the Rhinos first, then the Long Fangs. Lightning claws in each squad would be beneficial, no? I'll be back after the match with (hopefully) a success story. :D

 

This is all part of an escalation league, so for next month I'll bust out some Devs with Missle Launchers.

[WhoaDirty]

Back with a battle report.

 

Here is approximately what he played:

Rune Priest

3 Grey Hunter squads, numbering 9, 9, 8. All basically set up with Meltagun, Powerfist, Wolf Standard and Rhino.

Vindicator with Dozer Blade.

3 Wolf Guard, each with a combi-melta, split among the three squads.

I work that out to about 900 points, not sure where he put the last 100 points.

 

Long story short, I lost because of inexperience with 5e. And also my stupidity. For mission we rolled Capture and Control and for deployment we rolled Pitched Battle. We played on the city table and each of us put the objective on the top floor of a four floor building. He put one GH squad in the tall building with the objective along with his Rune Priest, one in another building in the opposite corner of table. One squad was in a rhino hidden behind the Vindicator. Game was decided by two things: Going second, I put 1 Multimelta and 10 Krak missles into the Vindicator and Rhino for a net result of ... nothing. I rolled lots of 1s and 2s. The one that got through was ignored by a smoke roll. The other deciding factor was me not understanding the mission. The objective marker was on the fourth floor and I thought it marked the whole building as the objective, so when the game ended after 5 turns, I wasn't close enough (guys on the second floor) to be within 3". :(

 

So it was a good learning experience overall, I appreciate all the comments and help. Hopefully next time will be a different result. :)

[Muller]

*Howls*

 

For the End Time, For Russ! :P

[Brother Kovash]

Just curious, what list did you end up playing with? If I had the bits lying around, I would build and run krewl's list, seems the most balanced at that point level.

[WhoaDirty]

Just curious, what list did you end up playing with? If I had the bits lying around, I would build and run krewl's list, seems the most balanced at that point level.

 

I used krewl's list except I only had one Chainfist because one of my Landspeeders was assembled with a Heavy Flamer. I would run it again in a rematch, although this is an escalation league, so the next time will probably be at 1500 points. The list I would likely use is:

 

Belial

DWT with AC Apothecary, Sarge with PW and Banner, 3 TH/SS

DWT with CML and CF

DWT with CML and CF

DWT with CML and CF

Bike Squad with 2 MG, Attack Bike with MM

Typhon Landspeeder with MM and Heavy Flamer

Typhon Landspeeder with MM

[Tanhausen]

Can you take MM AND HF on a typhoon? I though max 2 weapons...

 

The rest... I'd swap 1 claws in each sqaud, but thats personal preference :P

[WhoaDirty]

Can you take MM AND HF on a typhoon? I though max 2 weapons...

 

The rest... I'd swap 1 claws in each sqaud, but thats personal preference :lol:

 

Oops, you are correct Tahausen. I built that speeder before the FAQ and then added the Typhon after. Guess I'll have to rip it off. And yup, LC in every squad. :)