DIY - The Progenitor Not Taken

[Brother Ragnil]

I have been working on a DIY Chapter that is based around the Blood Angels 5th Ed. Codex rules. However, my marines have become based on historical viking berserkers rather than Blood Angels fluff. So I have two questions: Will my army theme sound too close to either Khorne Berzerkers and/or Space Wolves to use the Blood Angels Codex? Would it seem plausible to use a Blood Angels Codex for a Chapter not affiliated with the Blood Angels, if I just plan on using their rules?

[Brother Rathul]

Sure, DIY is whatever you want man :thanks:

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

I would recommend making the army list separate from the fluff. If you keep them together, it creates too much limitation in your fluff writing, as shown by your post.

[CantonWC]

Just to reiterate:

 

You should not constrain yourself by basing your Chapter fluff entirely around a codex. I think it is okay for fluff to influence rules but not the other way around. I would hate making a Space Wolves style Chapter and then feel obligated to explain why they ride around on Thunderwolves. If you feel like you absolutely must explain why your Chapter does this or that based on what you use on the tabletop, that will really hurt your creativity.

[Brother Ragnil]

Thanks for the advice. I was just mostly worried that somehow having a themed army that seems more closely related with one Chapter based on similar historical contexts, even though I was using the rules and lists from another would seem contradictory. I don't even intend to use codex fluff from either to be honest, I was just seeing if my theme still had to revolve loosely around the codex or not. But based upon your responses, it seems like it doesn't :D .

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

Sure, DIY is whatever you want man :cuss

 

Not if you're posting on the Liber asking for advice.

[Lord Scytha]

As other already said but it bears repeating. Don't mix army lists and table top rules concerns with fluff.

 

You have your theme and that's good.

 

What you should ask yourself next is two questions.

 

The first is if the chapter is a codex chapter or a none codex chapter.

That is do they follow the guidelines of the Codex Astartes or do they follow some individual organisation or doctrine. Most chapters do follow the codex how ever, including for the most part the Blood Angels.

 

The second is which Primarch the chapter stem from and whose geneseed they use.

This will only affect the fluff and not so much how they would fight or live. For example Space Marines stemming from Dorn's line lack the sus-an membrane so if you pick him as your Primarch you can have your marines go into hibernation in your fluff and so on. Most gene-seed though doesn't have any such flaws so you have plenty to pick from.

In the end there are other factors that effect a chapter's history and culture more than the gene-seed so no matter who you pick don't feel that it should restrict you in anyway.

 

A word of warning though. Considering your theme it might be tempting to pick Leman Russ and the Space Wolfs as your chapters progenitors. The trouble is that it is well established by GW that the space wolfs gene-seed is so genetically unstable that any attempt to rising new space marines from it will just result in mutated monsters. so I'd advice against it.

[Brother Ragnil]

As other already said but it bears repeating. Don't mix army lists and table top rules concerns with fluff.

 

You have your theme and that's good.

 

What you should ask yourself next is two questions.

 

The first is if the chapter is a codex chapter or a none codex chapter.

That is do they follow the guidelines of the Codex Astartes or do they follow some individual organisation or doctrine. Most chapters do follow the codex how ever, including for the most part the Blood Angels.

 

The second is which Primarch the chapter stem from and whose geneseed they use.

This will only affect the fluff and not so much how they would fight or live. For example Space Marines stemming from Dorn's line lack the sus-an membrane so if you pick him as your Primarch you can have your marines go into hibernation in your fluff and so on. Most gene-seed though doesn't have any such flaws so you have plenty to pick from.

In the end there are other factors that effect a chapter's history and culture more than the gene-seed so no matter who you pick don't feel that it should restrict you in anyway.

 

A word of warning though. Considering your theme it might be tempting to pick Leman Russ and the Space Wolfs as your chapters progenitors. The trouble is that it is well established by GW that the space wolfs gene-seed is so genetically unstable that any attempt to rising new space marines from it will just result in mutated monsters. so I'd advice against it.

 

 

I'm not planning on having them stem from Russ' gene-seed, but then I see a problem concerning my historical inspiration being associated with the Wolves. This is where I was primarily getting worried. Also, I realize that they might also seem too much like Khorne Berzerkers, solely by name association and preferred method of combat.

 

Essentially I wasn't planning on naming a progenitor Chapter, nor a Primarch from which they descended, but now I see the trouble in making that an "unknown" area, for people will thiink I'm alluding to Russ when really I am not. I've already mapped out gene-seed fluff in order to make using Blood Angels rules more viable, but I don't have their gene-seed resembling any Primarch's gene-seed.

 

So I guess my main concern now is: I have my theme, but in the long run since I'm not attributing them to any of the previous Legions/Primarchs, will that run into some problems legitimacy-wise? While I realize that in the end this is my own Chapter, and my own creation, it would be nice to see how others would perceive them.

 

Thanks all for the advice so far! :no:

[Lord Scytha]

As other already said but it bears repeating. Don't mix army lists and table top rules concerns with fluff.

 

You have your theme and that's good.

 

What you should ask yourself next is two questions.

 

The first is if the chapter is a codex chapter or a none codex chapter.

That is do they follow the guidelines of the Codex Astartes or do they follow some individual organisation or doctrine. Most chapters do follow the codex how ever, including for the most part the Blood Angels.

 

The second is which Primarch the chapter stem from and whose geneseed they use.

This will only affect the fluff and not so much how they would fight or live. For example Space Marines stemming from Dorn's line lack the sus-an membrane so if you pick him as your Primarch you can have your marines go into hibernation in your fluff and so on. Most gene-seed though doesn't have any such flaws so you have plenty to pick from.

In the end there are other factors that effect a chapter's history and culture more than the gene-seed so no matter who you pick don't feel that it should restrict you in anyway.

 

A word of warning though. Considering your theme it might be tempting to pick Leman Russ and the Space Wolfs as your chapters progenitors. The trouble is that it is well established by GW that the space wolfs gene-seed is so genetically unstable that any attempt to rising new space marines from it will just result in mutated monsters. so I'd advice against it.

 

 

I'm not planning on having them stem from Russ' gene-seed, but then I see a problem concerning my historical inspiration being associated with the Wolves. This is where I was primarily getting worried. Also, I realize that they might also seem too much like Khorne Berzerkers, solely by name association and preferred method of combat.

 

Essentially I wasn't planning on naming a progenitor Chapter, nor a Primarch from which they descended, but now I see the trouble in making that an "unknown" area, for people will thiink I'm alluding to Russ when really I am not. I've already mapped out gene-seed fluff in order to make using Blood Angels rules more viable, but I don't have their gene-seed resembling any Primarch's gene-seed.

 

So I guess my main concern now is: I have my theme, but in the long run since I'm not attributing them to any of the previous Legions/Primarchs, will that run into some problems legitimacy-wise? While I realize that in the end this is my own Chapter, and my own creation, it would be nice to see how others would perceive them.

 

Thanks all for the advice so far! :P

 

You don't have to attribute the theme to any Primarch or Legion. A Chapters looks, feel, culture and belief is much more influenced by the Chapters home world, customs and history than from how the founding legion behaved or what kind of a guy the Primarch was. You don't have to pick a progenitor Chapter either or spell it all out in the text.

A short off hand mention that they belong to gene-line of one of the loyalist legions is more than enough, especially if the matter of their gene-seed doesn't play any big role in their origin or history. Just give the readers a hint that the chapter works like most other chapters when it comes to gene-seed and that's all you would ever need to say on that subject.

 

As for the theme and Russ; again as long as you some way convey to the readers that your chapter doesn't use space wolf gene-seed then that's enough. Plus it'll save you a lot of grief from more harsher fluff critics. ;)

A Viking themed smurf chapter and no one can complain. Make it a Viking themed successor chapter to the wolfs and you'll see nukes going off in this thread. :P

 

Are you going to name the chapter Corn-berzerkers? Then yeah people will associate the chapter with berzerkers. If not and you tell people that the chapter have special berserker units instead of death company (of course you don't actually say instead of) then no one will probably think much about it. Heck, even if you name the chapter the Iron Berserks people prolly won't think much about it, especially if you spell berserker correctly with an S.

 

So when it comes to legitimacy so provided you let the reader know that the chapters gene-seed stuff works as normal, points out that they are not a space wolf successor chapter and doesn't doesn't pick a name all that similar to another Chapter/unit/legion you should be home free.

 

Then you just have the bigger problem of making the readers believe why your chapter is Viking themed and why they have berserks.

[Brother Ragnil]

Thanks for all the advice Scytha! It's a great help when someone just spells it out for you like that. It seems that sometimes no matter how hard you look into things, a simple reasoning from an outside source seems to always draw things together for you. And to quickly answer your points:

 

1st Para: That's exactly what I am going for, so I'm glad you put aside that fear.

 

2nd Para: Trust me, I'm planning on making it very clear they are not descendants of the Sons of Russ. I wouldn't do that to my favorite GW Chapter :) .

 

3rd Para: The Chapter will have the name "berserkers" in it, but like you pointed out I did want it to be the correct spelling, so I guess I'm fine there.

 

And to your last comment, that's where all the fun is for me :cuss .

[Brother Ragnil]

Thanks for all the advice Scytha! It's a great help when someone just spells it out for you like that. It seems that sometimes no matter how hard you look into things, a simple reasoning from an outside source seems to always draw things together for you. And to quickly answer your points:

 

1st Para: That's exactly what I am going for, so I'm glad you put aside that fear.

 

2nd Para: Trust me, I'm planning on making it very clear they are not descendants of the Sons of Russ. I wouldn't do that to my favorite GW Chapter :) .

 

3rd Para: The Chapter will have the name "berserkers" in it, but like you pointed out I did want it to be the correct spelling, so I guess I'm fine there.

 

And to your last comment, that's where all the fun is for me :cuss .

[Aqui]

If you want to have your Marine Chapter take Aspirants from a sea-faring culture, but not have the Viking/Wolf Motif of the Space Wolves, perhaps you might look towards the Icelanders. Descendants of Norwegian Settlers, they could be the thing you're looking for :P

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iceland

 

As most will know, Iceland is very cold, isolated, and are a hardy people.

 

Might be what you're looking for. If not, I might have a look into it whilst I mothball the two DIY's I have for a while :rolleyes:

[Brother Ragnil]

Thanks for the help Aquilanus. I looked at the various wikipedia pages that branched off from the original site you gave, they were very helpful. However I'm focusing primarily on the berserker culture of the Vikings, not necessarily a region. Still, it might be very helpful to look into places like Iceland to get a different topographical or slight variation of culture background (especially the hardiness you referred to), and I found some things in there that might just suit that, so many thanks :D .

[GooseDaMoose]

As I see it a berserker Chapter works perfectly with Blood Angels. They've got the geneseed thing that makes some of their successor chapters literally bloodthirsty. Look at the Flesh Tearers for example. What I'm reading here is you're making Viking-y Flesh Tearers :P

[Brother Ragnil]

As I see it a berserker Chapter works perfectly with Blood Angels. They've got the geneseed thing that makes some of their successor chapters literally bloodthirsty. Look at the Flesh Tearers for example. What I'm reading here is you're making Viking-y Flesh Tearers :devil:

 

Precisely! Although I'm still debating whether or not to make it known that they are Blood Angel descendants, or just use the rules of the Blood Angels Codex and have my fluff seem like they might be connected B) . Any thoughts?

[Brother Ragnil]

Ok so I think I've got a good start on my Chapter. But before I post as an IA I wanted to get some preliminary feedback. So here's some of what I have so far:

BERSERKERS CHAPTER

This is the basic color scheme of each marine ^^^

Chapter Origins

It is unknown when the Berserkers Chapter was first founded. As the Adeptus Terra does not contain any stock of the Chapter’s gene-seed, it is regarded that the Chapter may have been founded during the 13th ‘Dark’ Founding, but some sources put first sightings of the Chapter at both earlier and later dates. Nor is there a viable progenitor chapter that contains a similar structure to them. Due to the Berserkers’ cultural tendencies, some Imperial scholars believe them to be associated with the Space Wolves, but this theory has been laid to rest, for the Chapter’s marked mutations do not collaborate with the Canis Helix gene-seed. And with the exact location of their home world unknown, the already wary-of-outsiders behavior that the Berserkers possess keeps most investigations at bay.

Gene-Seed Mutation

While genetic mutations occur within Astartes Chapters, the mutation of the Berserkers’ gene-seed is unique. Thought to be mutations in both the biscopea and mucranoid implants, each organ has allowed enhanced muscle growth as well as short increases in power as well as a secretion resistant to weak corrosives and incendiaries, respectively. However, when under extensive conditions this mutation affectively destroys muscle tissue from a stronger form of lactic acid, another side effect of the mutation. This has greatly reduced the battle capacity of most veterans, hence why the Chapter houses a constant, large number of neophytes in order to quickly replace marines.

(So far this is just a crude outline of how I essentially am looking at the mutation. I don't know if the trait seems like a greater strength than weakness, or vice versa. What I have learned from viking berserkers is that they were perceived to be invulnerable to weapons and fire, and could only be harmed with blunt weapons)

Home World

Kermodeia is a feral world located deep in the Ultima Segmentum, near densely populated systems of Ork-held worlds. Although the exact location of the planet is unknown, it is perceived to be relatively close to the planet Baal, as sightings of Berserkers cruisers are often seen travelling through the sector. Kermodeia largely consists of ancient pine forests and large plains systems. The native human population of Kermodeia is a tribe-structured society which constantly battle for territory, supremacy, and against top predators, making them excellent recruitments for the Berserkers. They refer to themselves collectively as ‘the Kermodei’, in which the planet is named after. It is speculated that the Chapter’s fortress-monastery is located on one of the many outlying islands of the planet’s super-continent, allowing the Chapter to distance themselves from the natives, who perceive the Berserkers to be spirit-warriors protecting the planet.

Chapter Organization

The Berserkers follow an extremely loose interpretation of the Codex Astartes. The Chapter is broken down into eight companies of about 100-120 marines each. Each company has the right to wear the heraldry of their thane (captain) on the right shoulder pad. Companies are further broken down into bands, the Berserkers’ equivalent of squads, with a cap of ten marines per band. Bands are marked by a number and its color, located on the left kneepad. Tactical bands have white numbers, assault bands have red, and devastator bands have yellow. Bands do not have sergeants and instead have unofficial leaders called jarls, who are often the best warrior in each band. Jarls don a red helmet to signify status.

The command structure has no official markings of rank. Traditionally the skins of the Kermodeian Bear, their planet’s fiercest predator, are worn as a sign of leadership. And while each company retains some form of autonomy – in respect to preferential fighting styles and maintenance of the company armory – all must accord to the chapter master. The chapter master oversees the entirety of the Chapter, and is in direct command over each thane as well as the 1st Company. The Berserkers’ 8th Company is home to the Chapter’s neophytes.

None of the companies follow the designations written for each in the Codex Astartes. Each company is structured to suit its preferred method of warfare (particularly a variant of assault), with the exception of the 6th and 7th companies, who traditionally stand as the full armor and assault companies, respectively. However, the Chapter places a quota on the minimum number of squad types each that each battle company holds, to ensure slighter tactical flexibility: battle companies must train at least two tactical squads, two assault squads, and one devastator squad.

In addition, the Chapter maintains an elite unit known as ‘Berserkers’ which form an unofficial “9th Company”. The Chapter holds a constant reservation of around 80 berserkers.

Combat Doctrine

The Berserkers are a full-fledged shock assault army that practices the concept of total war – completely rendering the enemy unable to prolong engagements into wars of attrition. This method ensures the unbalanced Berserkers a way to even the playing field against more tactically-variable forces. Most strategies incorporate a steadily-moving firing line followed by a deep-striking force to pincer the enemy in from escaping. Yet all Berserkers eventually become worked up by the onslaught, and will break rank to engage the foe head-to-head.

As assault-oriented marines, the Chapter houses a large quantity of Jump Packs and Drop Pods, allowing battle-brothers to reach the enemy swiftly and engage in close combat. In contrast, the Berserkers deplore most forms of heavy artillery and battle tanks, as they find these weapons slow, cumbersome, and veering away from their preferred plan of attack. However, the Chapter’s armory boasts few precious Crusader and Redeemer-pattern Land Raiders, as well as Predators.

The Berserkers’ 8th Company fills a particular and crucial role to the Chapter. Operating outside of the Chapters’ main forces the company acts primarily as a reconnaissance and surgical strike force, destroying key supply depots/trains as well as surveying unknown terrain. This company never conjoins with actual fighting forces, due to the need of keeping high numbers of acolytes to replace fallen battle-brothers.

‘Berserker’ units form the driving force of these shock assaults for which the Berserkers are famed. Often deployed at the front of the battle formations, berserkers will sprint into the densest section of enemies, mercilessly tearing their way through, not stopping until a battle has been one or killed. With this driving force, the rest of the task force is able to concentrate on taking down key targets and rear surprise assaults as the enemy is distracted with the immediate threat of the berserker units.

Recruitment

Aspirants are selected from one of the many tribes on Kermodeia. Tribes send their best warriors westward in search of the ‘Al-Thing’, an ancient set of ruins said to be where mortals turn into spirit warriors. For those who manage to find the ruins, a Berserkers chaplain then selects the first cut of aspirants, who are then put into groups of three and pitted up against an unarmed battle-brother for ten minutes. If the group or some of its members survives against the marine, then they are taken to the Berserkers’ fortress-monastery. After weeks of training and further eliminations, those who remain ceremonially drink “the blood of the ancestors” and are given the implants to become a space marine, and are inducted into the Chapter as neophytes.

+END+

So that's what I have so far. I'm currently working on the cultural aspect of the Chapter, as well as a brief history. While I want to keep some areas vague, I posted these on here in hopes of receiving constructive criticism on what seems to drawn out, what isn't enough, or just questions you may have about the Chapter that seems unclear due to the information provided. Also, if this part of my topic is better suited in a different area of the forum, please let me know.

[Generating Random Name...]

One thing I wouldn't mention "Lactic acid" maybe say "An acidic substance". I only ay this because to me Lacict Acid breaks the suspension, dunno what othe people think...

[Leonaides]

groups of three and pitted up against an unarmed battle-brother for ten minutes. If the group or some of its members survives against the marine, then they are taken to the Berserkers’ fortress-monastery

If a single marine cant kill three 10-15 yrd old boys within 30 seconds he ought to be shot himself! let alone 10 minutes. Would probably be easier to say that they are made to fight each otehr, and the survivors are then taken to the chapter monastery.

[Pack Master Kael]

You could keep the aspirants fighting the battle brother but just make it clear that he isn't going full out in the fight and is merely testing the boys martial prowess. You can still thin out the numbers by saying that the marine will kill any aspirants that he feels is too cowardly/ doesn't posses enough skill or something along that line.

[CantonWC]

It is unknown when the Berserkers Chapter was first founded. As the Adeptus Terra does not contain any stock of the Chapter’s gene-seed, it is regarded that the Chapter may have been founded during the 13th ‘Dark’ Founding, but some sources put first sightings of the Chapter at both earlier and later dates. Nor is there a viable progenitor chapter that contains a similar structure to them. Due to the Berserkers’ cultural tendencies, some Imperial scholars believe them to be associated with the Space Wolves, but this theory has been laid to rest, for the Chapter’s marked mutations do not collaborate with the Canis Helix gene-seed. And with the exact location of their home world unknown, the already wary-of-outsiders behavior that the Berserkers possess keeps most investigations at bay.

 

Is this unknown gene-seed? Ugh, don't get me started...

 

And how is it that no one knows where their home world is? If they just keep to themselves all the time, someone might think they are hiding something, perhaps gone renegade.

 

Chapter Organization

 

Why do they have this weird organization?

 

What is up with these Berserkers (the troops)? Why did they get like this? It seems like part of this writing is directly influenced by the Blood Angel tabletop rules, which is something myself and others have explicitly warned against.

[Brother Ragnil]

You could keep the aspirants fighting the battle brother but just make it clear that he isn't going full out in the fight and is merely testing the boys martial prowess. You can still thin out the numbers by saying that the marine will kill any aspirants that he feels is too cowardly/ doesn't posses enough skill or something along that line.

 

That's what I had originally intended. I don't mean to say that the marine is trying armed and ready for a full-on fight. I like the idea of your second sentence though, accomplishes what I couldn't put into words :lol: .

 

@CantonWC - I guess I misinterpreted what you said. I wasn't trying to justify the rules of the Blood Angels with this fluff - i wanted these units in here all along, and so I used the codex to justify my fluff instead of the other way around. At least, that was my intention. What are some examples to steer clear of this mix up? As for the gene-seed ambiguity, I just don't want my Chapter to be associated with any others really, but it seems as if this 'unknown' gene-seed is already presenting problems :cuss . I realize I don't have to pick an ex-legion or even 2nd Founding Chapter, but I'm just concerned that, for example, if an Ultramarine-based gene-seed is chosen, the cultural/trait aspect of my Chapter won't be valid in terms of the progenitor.

 

I appreciate the comments so far though! Much help has been granted!

[Pack Master Kael]

Trait aspects can differ greatly from the parent chapter. A chapters traits mostly come from home world/cultural influences, battle field experiences, and important chapter members like the chapter master, training cadre ect. Take the Mortifactors for instance(Mortifactors Lexicanum), they are a second founding Ultramarines chapter but their practices have diverged greatly from the boys in blue. The Ultramarines are utterly disgusted with how infatuated the Mortifactors are with death. You can really have any traits you want associated with a geneseed as long as you explain how the chapter developed those traits. If you wanted to you could make a Salamanders successor that did not use any flamers or meltas, maybe they had some sort of catastrophic accident and ship blew up so they decided to not use those weapons any more. All you have to do is give a reason as to why the chapter developed these traits and you can use any geneseed.

[CantonWC]

I guess I misinterpreted what you said. I wasn't trying to justify the rules of the Blood Angels with this fluff - i wanted these units in here all along, and so I used the codex to justify my fluff instead of the other way around. At least, that was my intention. What are some examples to steer clear of this mix up?

 

Well, I don't have the Blood Angels codex in front of me. But they like assault, so keep that in and leave it at that. Try not to make the connection between berserkers and Death Company so obvious.

 

And again I will reiterate. Keep the fluff and the tabletop rules separate. If I want to write a Chapter that's like the Space Wolves and plays similar to them, that's fine. But I should not write my Chapter based on the rules and statlines because then my Chapter is exactly like the Space Wolves. If I use Thunder wolves (and I wouldn't), does that mean I have to explain why my own Chapter rides around on Thunder wolves? No it doesn't, because it hurts the believability of the Chapter.

 

As for the gene-seed ambiguity, I just don't want my Chapter to be associated with any others really, but it seems as if this 'unknown' gene-seed is already presenting problems confused.gif . I realize I don't have to pick an ex-legion or even 2nd Founding Chapter, but I'm just concerned that, for example, if an Ultramarine-based gene-seed is chosen, the cultural/trait aspect of my Chapter won't be valid in terms of the progenitor.

 

This is not true at all. Look at the Ultramarines. Straight-laced Romans with sticks up their butts. Now look at the Silver Skulls. Superstitious types that prefer to consult their Librarians before going into battle and sometimes don't even take to battle if the omens are not good. Now look at the Mortifactors; they're obsessed with death.

 

They're all Ultramarine Chapters, yet their personalities are so radically different. It is true that a parent Chapter may pass on some traits, but the personal experiences and the home world cultures of a Chapter are also major contributing factors.

[Brother Ragnil]

I understand now, thank you both. I was actually doing that exact same research that you both have given me, and am deciding to completely revamp my Chapter now (oh how the mind flutters :) ). Although I like the Blood Angel rules, I think I'll just use c:sm for this army because I think I'll have a better time with it.