Knights Vulpine - 3/21

[Galrion]

The Rylar Heresy
The Rylar Heresy was the first action in which the Knights Vulpine took part. In 150.M32, the hive world of Rylar suddenly went silent. Ships went to investigate, but never returned. Finally, a naval force was sent to discover what was happening in Rylar. The force was attacked and several ships were lost before they could withdraw from the system.
Rylar had declared independence from the Imperium. This was unacceptable and an Imperial response was not long in coming. This action would be met by overwhelming force. Ioannes, deeming that the Knights Vulpine were ready, volunteered to aid the task force. The Knights were to be held in reserve until the main enemy strongholds could be identified.
The Knights Vulpine successfully broke several strongholds. It is unknown if they let their vigilance slip due to their so-far easy successes, but on the 5th stronghold an entire squad was destroyed. The fallen brothers were later found separated and felled by what looked like bolter rounds. No enemy was found on the follow up strike and evidence of bolter use by the rebels was sporadic at best.
This early lesson about the need for constant vigilance stayed with the young chapter.

The Cleansing of Haggedlim
In 200.M32 the Imperium asked the Knights Vulpine to assist in returning the Haggedlim system to compliance. Haggedlim had fallen to Chaos. It needed to be brought back into the fold, the heretics purged. Chapter Master Ioannes wasted no time in mobilizing the 3rd company, led by the young but already well respected Captain Belizar, and elements from the 5th and 7th companies. Ioannes himself took overall command.
It very quickly became clear that this uprising was not simply the result of some fools turning their faces from the Emperor. Marines from the despised Alpha Legion were present, and in force. The initial invasion went well and most territories were quickly under Imperial control. However, an insurgency campaign was launched and the war effort began to drag out.
Ioannes became impatient with the setbacks. He led an independent strike on the building the Imperial forces suspected to be the enemy headquarters. Ioannes successfully broke through the defenses and made his way to the inner sanctum. It was a trap. The building was rigged with meltabombs and Ioannes and his strike force were annihilated.
Belizar took command of the remaining Knights Vulpine and decided it was time for a change in their approach. He focused on counter insurgency. He gave sets of false orders. Fictional Guard units were deployed. Real units of Guard were sometimes sacrificed. Occasionally, even the Alpha Legion were fooled, their forces defeated. The XXth legion’s numbers began to gradually diminish. Haggedlim was declared free of taint in 210.M32.

After the Haggedlim, the character of the chapter began to change. Belizar seems to have deliberately worked to stamp the chapter in his own image. After the loss of Ioannes and Belizar’s successful resolution of the Haggedlim campaign he was chosen as the new Chapter Master. It was Belizar that began laying out modifications to the Chapter titles and changes to the Knights Vulpine organization. His plans and strategies were encapsulated in his work, the Strategik.
Belizar served as Chapter Master, now Strategos, for centuries, putting his mark on the chapter. It was Belizar that established the Test of the Fox.

Let your plans be dark and as impenetratable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt

Strategik Book II chapter 12

To become a Knight the candidate must be judged physically, spiritually, and mentally fit. They must demonstrate a zeal and devotion to the Emperor and to the defense of Bisanthe. The moment of true testing comes when they must take the Test of the Fox. Each aspirant must go into the wild, locate, track, and capture a Bisanthean Fox. The Bisanthean fox is renowned for its ability to avoid capture by all but the cleverest and most determined hunters. There is no point to killing the fox, its power lies in avoiding capture, not defeating an opponent that has caught it. By capturing it, the aspirant has shown tenacity, adaptability, cunning, and cleverness. Only then are they ready to join the ranks of the Knights Vulpine

Homeworld

Located in the Bantian subsector near the Maelstrom in the Segmentum Ultima, the Knights Vulpine call the planet Bisanthe IV home. An important trade hub, it is a planet of mountains, rich river valleys, and ocean. Bisanthe IV was reunited with the Empire of Man during the Great Crusade. It had not fallen back into barbarity, like many other systems. The Bisantheans were still capable of spaceflight and maintained orbital and off world colonies.

The Bisanthe system was constantly attacked by one xenos breed or another. Millennia of conflict with the alien races such as the Tamans and Ulagar had made them paranoid and filled with an intense hatred of all alien species. Constantly outnumbered in both men and materials the Bisantheans found symbolic meaning in the Bisanthean fox. The fox small and weak, but through it’s cunning, strategy, quick-thinking, adaptability, focus, determination, was and cleverness it avoided and escaped predators.

The terrain of Bisanthe and the constant attacks combined to form a strong spirit of independence. The typical Bisanthean is independent, verbose, and delights in argument. One should be wary when dealing with a Bisanthe trader as they enjoy misdirection and trickery. If you can get a promise or an oath out of one, however, you will never need to worry. They have strong sense of duty and honor once they can be pinned down on a subject.

Once freed the Great Crusade freed them from the constant threat of xenos they were grateful and immediately pledged their allegiance to the Empire. They have gladly sent off many of their Knights and daughters to serve in the Imperial Guard and the Imperial Navy.

All war is deception

Strategik Book I Chapter 3

The Battle of Mantzes

In M35.546 a large Waaagh led by Ghabghask of the Blood Moon clan had been making serious gains in nearby systems. Elements of his fleet had entered the Mantzes system. Strategos Raminos responded by leading the 1st and 2nd companies to the system. There Komes Iarchan of the 3rd company would meet him. Iarchan would also have elements of the 6th and 8th companies with him. Raminos planned to destroy the forward elements and have enough power in system to smash Ghabghask's main force when it arrived.

It failed. Komes Iarchan's fleet did not arrive. Raminos, taking stock of the situation, decided he had enough forces to eliminate the present threat. He engaged the Ork ships and boarded them. While his strike teams were coming to grips with the Orks onboard, the rest of the Ork fleet entered the system ahead of the Imperial projections. The Knights were heavily engaged, but began to make a tactical withdrawal. Raminos made it back to his ship and realized that the bulk of his troops would not be able to disengage in time. Rather than fall back himself and leave his men behind he chose to launch an attack on the incoming fleet with his flagship. They fought valiantly and when the ship had done what it could Raminos and his terminator squads teleported over to Ghabghask's flagship. Although they failed to eliminate the warlord, they did buy enough time for most of the 1st and 2nd companies to fall back. In the wake of the loss of their Strategos and the apparent loss of almost two full companies, the Knights Vulpine were thrown on the defensive. Before reinforcements could arrive Ghabghask’s Waaagh took five of the nine systems in the Bantian subsector. Other enemies, seeing the Son's apparent weakness, descended upon the subsector.

Komes Nicephorous of the 5th company was the first to arrive in the Bantian subsector following the Mantzes defeat. He quickly organized a defense of the remaining systems, taking charge of the local PDF and SDF. He consolidated the defenses and sent out the call for help. It took 100 years for the xenos taint to be cleansed from the subsector. For his part, Nicephorous was chosen as the new Strategos.

+++Addendum+++ Elements of Iarchan’s task force, notably the 6th and 8th company elements arrived, 200 years later, but Iarchan and the entire 3rd company have yet to reappear.

Organization

The Knights Vulpine, recognizing that Guilliman was clearly the reflection of the Emperor’s tactical acumen have striven to uphold the ideals of the Codex Astartes. In the millennia since their founding, some small variances have crept into the Son’s organization.
The Codex recognizes the need to occasionally break squads into smaller units, but the Knights Vulpine have formalized this division. Each squad is led by a Dekarch. When this occurs, the Dekarch will lead one unit and the other will be led by the Pentrarch. If the Komes decides to split his command he would designate a leader of the other portion and that carries the temporary rank of Kyres. In addition the Komes are given wide latitude in the decision making process.
The Strategos of the Knights Vulpine also rules the Bisanthe system. The Strategos must be able to understand and anticipate the subtleties of the Bisanthean political arena. This was not always a requirement and the Chapter as a whole suffered.

War is politics, politics war

Strategos Nicephrous

The story of Strategos Raminos is used as the textbook example of this flaw. While undoubtedly formidable on the battlefield, he lacked the essential subtlety that should define a Strategos of the Knights Vulpine. Since his defeat, the requirement to become Strategos has included the ability to not only understand, but to use indirect methods both in the political arena and in the battlefield.
The Knights Vulpine’s company marking is denoted by the color of the fox symbol on their left pauldron.
The most notable deviation is the absence of the 3rd company. Despite millenia since the loss of Iarchan and his company in the warp, the Knights have not replaced the losses. When pressed, they state that Iarchan and his company will someday arrive and their places will be waiting for them.

Combat Doctrine

The Knights Vulpine’s combat doctrine is heavily influenced by Belizar’s Strategik. In this volume the second Strategos, Belizar, set down his thoughts on war and politics. The Knights consider this work to be genius. The Knights Vulpine believe in matching their tactics to their opponents. They will not enter a battle without knowing something of their enemy and his weaknesses. The Knights Vulpine favor trickery and misdirection in order to maximize results and reduce risk. Rumors have it that they are not averse to employing spies and assassins to gain an advantage. In combat, the Knights Vulpine favor close firefights.
With regard to equipment, circumstances and preferences have caused some deviations from the standard. The defeat at Mantzes left the Chapter low on terminator armor. While the Knights Vulpine have since replaced many of the suits, they are not frequently used. Additionally, while the Knights Vulpine recognize the usefulness of tanks, they do not favor their use. Finally, the Knights prefer the use of drop pods, resulting in less Rhinos than many Chapters would support.

Other chapters that favor a more blunt approach are known to question the Knights' martial character. The Knights Vulpine are quite vigorous in defense of their martial attributes, both vocally and physically.

Beliefs

The Knights Vulpine distrust the warp. They consider it’s very substance to be weakness. The assert that the warp, due to it’s ever-changing nature cannot be trusted. They point to the loss of Iarchan and the early arrival of the Ork fleet to be an example of this treacherous nature. The Knights Vulpine do not employ Librarians. They also use the above example as a reason for not using it and point to the Emperor’s ban on psykers. However, they employed psykers at founding, but stopped employing psykers before the loss of Iarchan. When pressed about the reason for this change and the dates involved the usually ebullient Knights become notoriously closemouthed.

Chaplain Memnon before the battle of Symos

The warp’s very substance is weakness. Look how the light of the Emperor pierces the shadows of the warp. Only the greatest storms may obscure the light of his truth and power, and they but for a short time. How can anyone trust the ever-changing warp? For is not goodness exemplified in the Emperor? Is he not the constant in the universe? If the Emperor is all goodness and the Emperor is constant, is not then constancy good? Therefore, is not the inconstancy of the warp necessarily bad? Did not the Chapter's own experience show this? The inconstancy of the warp caused the Komes Iarchan to arrive too late to the Mantzes system and allowed the greenskins their brief triumph. Never trust the warp. The Emperor in his wisdom allowed the use of the warp for travel and who are we to question his wisdom? But just he allowed the use of the warp for travel; did he not ban the use of Psykers in the legions? Should we heed his wisdom on the one hand and discard it with the other? No! For the Emperor is God, knows all, and sees all. The Knights Vulpine shall not have the stench of the warp amongst them. Let there be Librarians, but do not let them be corrupt.

The Knights Vulpine are fanatically devoted to the Emperor. They recognize that he truly is God. They argue that there can be no other way to understand what has occurred and what he accomplished. Their creed holds that the Primarchs were his sons and held fractured glories of his godhood. The Knights Vulpine believe that they are mirrors for the reflection of the Emperor's greatness. Each hopes that in his actions he can exemplify what extraordinary heights one can reach as long as they possess the reflection of the Emperor in their souls. The great saints of the chapter were able to harness that reflection. Being not on the level of the Emperor or even the Primarch they still can exemplify some great aspect. Belizar, the greatest of the chapter's saints represents the virtue of intellect. Ioannes, the founder himself, exemplifies faith. The Knights Vulpine celebrate these individuals, reciting their names and calling upon them to reflect that piece of the Emperor's glory they need at that moment. The Knights Vulpine despise and pity their fallen brethren. That they would willingly turn their back on the Emperor and try to follow Horus beggars belief. Did they not realize that any glimmer of greatness that Horus possessed was merely a reflective shard of the Emperor's? It is the duty of every Knight Vulpine to illuminate the heretical marines by directing their souls to the Emperor so they can see a true God. While differing in specifics, this faith in the Emperor and belief in his godhood has resulted in reasonably close ties with the Ecclesiarchy.

All Bisantheans hate xenos of any sort, and the Knights Vulpine take it to an extreme. Their hatred of all aliens is second only to that of the Black Templars. The Emperor commanded the destruction of these vile creatures. They cite the Emperor’s wisdom in declaring the need to destroy all alien species. Two of the races that warred on Bisanthe before their reunification with Terra, the Technocracy of Ulagar and the foul Tamans, are often mentioned. However, the Orks are particularly hated by the Knights. The Knights are even known to make less than optimal decisions when battling the greenskins.
Relations with other chapters is sometimes strained over the Bisanthean’s choice of strategies. This is particularly evident with the more bellicose chapters. Rumor has it that they have even come to blows with others over this point.

Komes Dragenses speaking to aspirants

Once again, his wisdom knows no bounds. Did not the foul Tamans constantly war upon Bisanthe, seeking to despoil that fair land? Or the despised Ulagar? Their tech heresy would have corrupted Bisanthe's soul for all time had they been allowed to triumph. Though the Bisantheans of the time did not know the Emperor, he knew them. His greatness sheltered Bisanthe and boosted their souls. They did not know this, but how else could they have triumphed without his sheltering palm? After Bisanthe had proven itself to him through its strength, he allowed Bisanthe to rejoin him and assist his Great Crusade. What of the foul greenskins? Did the Emperor let them triumph even as the warp did it's best to betray us? No. He sent Nicephorous, who reflected his indomitable will, to the system.

Geneseed

The geneseed of the Knights Vulpine is that of Guilliman. Their progenitor chapter is the White Consuls. Their geneseed has shown no signs of failure or mutation.

Battlecry

Know thy self, know thy Enemy. A thousand battles, a thousand victories!

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

Origins

In (some date) a large Waaagh led by Ghabghask of the Blood Moon clan had just taken the Mantzes system. Merarch Raminos led the 1st and 2nd companies to the Mantzes system. Komes (Captain) Iarchan of the 3rd company was to meet him with elements from the 6th and 8th companies to catch the Ork ships between them. They never arrived. Raminos was left horribly outgunned and his ships were destroyed. No sign of the missing Iarchan or his units was ever seen or heard. In the wake of this disaster the Sons of Thunder were thrown onto the defense. Most units that had been in the subsector were missing or destroyed. Before reinforcements could arrive Ghabghask’s Waaagh had taken five of the nine worlds in the Bantian subsector.

Nicephorous was the first Komes to arrive in the Thrakia system following the Mantzes disaster. He quickly organized a defense of the remaining systems, taking charge of the local PDF and SDF. Other enemies, seeing their apparent weakness descended upon the subsector.

It wasn’t until (insert date) that the Sons of Thunder were able to drive the Orks out of their territories.

 

First, these are the Origins. So tell us about them. As that battle is organization changing, stick it in organization.

Second, many, many people have gone down the horrific devastation path. At this point, I would ask yourself, "Why do I need this? What does it add to my chapter? Why is the sky blue?".

 

Homeworld

Located in the Segmentum Ultima, the Sons of Thunder call the planet Thrakia home. An important trade hub, it is a planet of mountains, rich river valleys, and ocean. From Thrakia IV the Sons of Thunder control a subsector of space. This subsector includes nine systems; Thrakia, Samosata, Iconium, Amida, Sebastea, Arta, Mandrae, Deleus, and Bisanthe. Mandrae’s fourth planet is settled. Deleus contains a Feudal world and many rich planets in system. Bisanthe has two planets of significance, The 3rd planet which is a agriworld and the 4th which is an icy hiveworld. Samosata’s habitable planet has 20% of its surface covered in ice, the rest of the population strung out along the equator. Amida is covered by 93% water. The population lives in massive underwater hives, extensive mining on the other planets in the system. Sebastea is 82% water, the rest of which is jungle. This planet is largely given over to hydroponics. Several valuable planets in system. Arta is a garden planet.

 

According to the separation of powers doctrine, space marines do not control pocket empires. If they did, they could turn traitor and bring massive resources with them, as shown by Huron and his merry men. Ignore the Ultramarines. If you wanted to make these recruiting planets, that would be fine.

 

Nicephorus, first Merarch after Mantzes established the current system. The chapter reorganized itself after the disaster at the Mantzes system. They eliminated the reserve companies and instead use 9 full companies. Each company is in charge of defense for a system and do the majority of their recruiting from that system.

 

Why? How would this help them? And why would this occur because of Mantzes.

[Direach]

I'm not in love with the colour scheme... the purple is fine, but that weird sand/flesh colour does not complement it well. I have a feeling that on a tabletop, they're going to look like Chaos. You might try a mustard or orange-gold colour instead. In my experience, very few colours go well with purple apart from black and white. And you definitely don't want to use green with purple, unless you want your Chapter to look like supervillains (the teal green eyes are OK though).

 

I'd also suggest reversing the current colour scheme, and replacing the sand colour with a pale blue-grey (like Space Wolves Grey). That will give you purple extremities and pauldrons over blue-grey armour, which (to me) is much more suggestive of storms and thunder. Sand (or any red/orange variant) is more of an earth colour, and you'll sell them better visually with colours that suggest the sky (blue/violet/purple/white).

 

If they're called the Sons of Thunder (a perfectly good name BTW), you may want a Chapter symbol that reflects that, or suggests thunder, storms, etc. When I think 'Son of Thunder' I think 'Thor', so a fist clenching a hammer, for instance, or a hammer over crossed lightning bolts would be appropriate.

 

I wouldn't put the company markings on anything that could be set on fire and burned up. <_< Consider using Norse runes as company markings instead of numbers; it continues the 'thunder/storm giant' theme well, and is very visually distinct.

[Firenze]

The belief area needs much more thought. Distrusting the warp is fine and dandy, but how does the chapter think? How does it see the Imperium? Why do they see it like that?

 

The Combat Doctrine section could do with a bit of work too to make them unique. All chapters use pods and hit and run. Whats new? Does yours do anything different?

 

Just my 2p. Keep writing man, I want to see this one through ;)

[Galrion]

First, these are the Origins. So tell us about them. As that battle is organization changing, stick it in organization.

Second, many, many people have gone down the horrific devastation path. At this point, I would ask yourself, "Why do I need this? What does it add to my chapter? Why is the sky blue?".

I'm surprised, I thought most people would be too in love with their chapter to have them take a severe beat down.

 

According to the separation of powers doctrine, space marines do not control pocket empires. If they did, they could turn traitor and bring massive resources with them, as shown by Huron and his merry men. Ignore the Ultramarines. If you wanted to make these recruiting planets, that would be fine.

I thought that was with Chapters formed after Vandire?

 

 

Why? How would this help them? And why would this occur because of Mantzes.

I'll work on that

 

I'm not in love with the colour scheme... the purple is fine, but that weird sand/flesh colour does not complement it well. I have a feeling that on a tabletop, they're going to look like Chaos. You might try a mustard or orange-gold colour instead.

 

This scheme didn't show up well in the painter. It's supposed to be midnight blue/dwarf bronze which on the test models looks pretty good.

 

 

The belief area needs much more thought. Distrusting the warp is fine and dandy, but how does the chapter think? How does it see the Imperium? Why do they see it like that?

 

Yeah, that section is just a stub at this point

 

 

The Combat Doctrine section could do with a bit of work too to make them unique. All chapters use pods and hit and run. Whats new? Does yours do anything different?

 

I meant that they do that to the exclusion of other tactics. They don't use tanks. I'll try to reflect that in the text.

 

Thanks so far for the suggestions and thoughts!

[Direach]

Dark blue and bronze would look good together, no question about that.

[Ecritter]

Yep, dark blue and bronze look way better. For some reason, most of the blues (even UM blue) comes out purple on painter.

[Galrion]

Updates pretty much across the board.

 

Several questions/issues.

 

Do Chapter Masters ever rule the system or is there always a planetary governor?

 

 

I'm not sure Guilliman/Ultramarines is the best geneseed/progenitor for the chapter, but I don't really know that any others quite fit the bill. I just picked them because they were the most common.

 

and where does everyone keep getting the great pictures for their chapter symbols, pictures of their homeworld, etc. Are there really that many great artists lingering about? Or am I really just that bad?

[NightrawenII]

I'm surprised, I thought most people would be too in love with their chapter to have them take a severe beat down.

Actually, the *We-don't-follow-codex-organisation-because-we-got-mauled-early-in-history* is over(ab)used excuse for non-codex organisation.

 

Do Chapter Masters ever rule the system or is there always a planetary governor?

Depends on the Chapter, Imperial Fists retain just symbolic rulership over their recruiting worlds, others govern their worlds directly.

 

I'm not sure Guilliman/Ultramarines is the best geneseed/progenitor for the chapter, but I don't really know that any others quite fit the bill. I just picked them because they were the most common.

UM gene-seed is the best, because is blank.

[Leonaides]

In M35.546 a large Waaagh led by Ghabghask of the Blood Moon clan conquered the Mantzes system. Merarch Raminos would lead the 1st and 2nd companies to the system and rendeavous with Komes (Captain) Iarchan of the 3rd company. Iarchan would also have elements of the 6th and 8th companies with him. They would then crush this warlord by simple strength of arms. This was, for the Sons of Thunder, a great deviation from their normal strategy.

 

It failed. Komes Iarchan's fleet never arrived and Raminos was left to face the horde alone. Rather than falling back to regroup he led his marines into an attack. Despite valiant efforts to cripple the enemy his ships were destroyed. No sign of the missing Iarchan or his units was ever seen or heard. In the wake of this disaster the Sons of Thunder were thrown onto the defense. Most of the imperial units that had been in the subsector were missing or destroyed. Before reinforcements could arrive Ghabghask’s Waaagh had took five of the nine systems in the Bantian subsector. Other enemies, seeing their apparent weakness descended upon the subsector.

 

Komes Nicephorous of the 3rd company was the first to arrive in the Thrakia system following the Mantzes disaster. He quickly organized a defense of the remaining systems, taking charge of the local PDF and SDF. He consolidated the defenses and sent out the call for help. It took 100 years for the xenos taint to be cleansed from the subsector.

First point - To summarise - your Chapter council was foolish enough to elect/support a Master was a fool, said fool caused the destruction of about 1/3rd of the chapter by fighting in a not-usual manner, and then your chapter decides to stop fighting in the usual manner and stray using not-usual tactics. Man hits head on wall, decides that was a bad idea and made his head hurt so he decides to hit his head on walls to stop him from getting a headache. Eh? You might want to have a bit of a re-think there old bean...

 

Second point - What happened to the missing 2 compaines, let by Komes Iarchan? Why was he not executed for his failiure. Why did the fleet not arrive in time? Why is the 3rd company under the command of another Komes (Nicephorous) when (presumably) it arrived in the system? Did Nicephorous lead a revolt agains the previous Komes? He cant have had any justification for killing the previous guy until they reached the system and found their chapter master and a good chunk of the chapter dead... More work on this as well.

 

Third point - was this a space battle, or a land battle? Its not clear. Do the marines all die in boarding actions? if so, why did they not break off when it was obvious that they were getting whooped? marines are dedicated warriors without peer, and also master tacticians. Incompetance does not survive to reach command.

[Galrion]

First point - To summarise - your Chapter council was foolish enough to elect/support a Master was a fool, said fool caused the destruction of about 1/3rd of the chapter by fighting in a not-usual manner, and then your chapter decides to stop fighting in the usual manner and stray using not-usual tactics. Man hits head on wall, decides that was a bad idea and made his head hurt so he decides to hit his head on walls to stop him from getting a headache. Eh? You might want to have a bit of a re-think there old bean...

The idea was that the chapter had always emphasized misdirection and dislocation. The Chapter Master didn't follow the chapter's normal tactics. The chapter afterwards formalized their previously informal deviation, using this Chapter Master as the example of all that was wrong with any other way.

 

Second point - What happened to the missing 2 compaines, let by Komes Iarchan? Why was he not executed for his failiure. Why did the fleet not arrive in time? Why is the 3rd company under the command of another Komes (Nicephorous) when (presumably) it arrived in the system? Did Nicephorous lead a revolt agains the previous Komes? He cant have had any justification for killing the previous guy until they reached the system and found their chapter master and a good chunk of the chapter dead... More work on this as well.

I had this explanation originally in and in editing it looks like I accidentally deleted it. No one knows what happened to the fleet. It never arrived. They didn't detect enough wreckage nearby to account for it. One of the mysteries of the Chapter. Assumed lost in the warp. Oh, and I accidentally used the wrong chapter for Nicephorous. :)

 

Third point - was this a space battle, or a land battle? Its not clear. Do the marines all die in boarding actions? if so, why did they not break off when it was obvious that they were getting whooped? marines are dedicated warriors without peer, and also master tacticians. Incompetance does not survive to reach command.

Supposed to be a space battle. Chapter Master was an a great warrior, very determined, very blunt. Election the result of internal politicking in the Chapter. Again, used as the example by those that followed of the problems and pitfalls of the previous system. Changed the system for becoming a Chapter Master after this. This is all laid out very well in the part of the chapter I...haven't finished...yet. :(

[Leonaides]

Ok, thanks for that - Given your answers i guess I'd suggest that you need to give a bit more of a description of their 'usual' manner of fighting before saying that this master wanted to do it diferently, then failed at it, etc...

 

Loosing the fleet of the 3rd Co etc - I'd almost rather suggest that it did trn up, just way too late (delayed in the warp but they didnt realise it - maybe they turn up 50 yrs later?) because if they are lost then you've lost over half your chapter in a single engagement, putting you straight in danger of extinction. Chapters simpy cannot afford that kind of losses and survive in general. Losing that much geneseed is a virtual death-knell that they simply cannot recover from. The Crimson Fists are most definately an exception in two ways - 1 that they were able to come back, and 2 - that they were allowed to come back. A lot of other chapters had to pull double duties and put themselves in greater risk of destruction to carry the combat weight that the Fists couldnt do, for longer than it would have taken to simply replace them with a new chapter and let them die out. You dont need to lose that many marines for this to be a massive shock to the chapter.

 

Re: Space battle, again, needs to be spelt out a bit clearer and you might want to think of some reason why your most battle-hardened and cunning marines acted like a bunch of Lemmings. I'd suggest coming up with some way that the Orks prevented the marine ships from withdrawing (Ciaphas Cain novels where the Orks set a warp-trap to knock Imperial ships out of the warp might be a good place to start doing some research for ideas).

 

Good luck with this, and I hope you dont take any of this the wrong way - I'm just trying to draw out the bits that are probably in your own head but you missed out writing because they seem so obvious to you.

[Galrion]

Ok, thanks for that - Given your answers i guess I'd suggest that you need to give a bit more of a description of their 'usual' manner of fighting before saying that this master wanted to do it diferently, then failed at it, etc...

 

Loosing the fleet of the 3rd Co etc - I'd almost rather suggest that it did trn up, just way too late (delayed in the warp but they didnt realise it - maybe they turn up 50 yrs later?) because if they are lost then you've lost over half your chapter in a single engagement, putting you straight in danger of extinction. Chapters simpy cannot afford that kind of losses and survive in general. Losing that much geneseed is a virtual death-knell that they simply cannot recover from. The Crimson Fists are most definately an exception in two ways - 1 that they were able to come back, and 2 - that they were allowed to come back. A lot of other chapters had to pull double duties and put themselves in greater risk of destruction to carry the combat weight that the Fists couldnt do, for longer than it would have taken to simply replace them with a new chapter and let them die out. You dont need to lose that many marines for this to be a massive shock to the chapter.

 

Re: Space battle, again, needs to be spelt out a bit clearer and you might want to think of some reason why your most battle-hardened and cunning marines acted like a bunch of Lemmings. I'd suggest coming up with some way that the Orks prevented the marine ships from withdrawing (Ciaphas Cain novels where the Orks set a warp-trap to knock Imperial ships out of the warp might be a good place to start doing some research for ideas).

 

Good luck with this, and I hope you dont take any of this the wrong way - I'm just trying to draw out the bits that are probably in your own head but you missed out writing because they seem so obvious to you.

Hmmm....perhaps he was covering escaping civilian ships? Doesn't necessarily strike me as very Imperial (giving even the vaguest concern towards civilians). Possibly as an outgrowth of the oath to defend the system. Possibly the Orks hadn't taken the system yet. Was an advance group of ships, he engaged them, boarded the ships, then the rest of the Ork fleet dropped in-system?

 

Return of the lost fleet, that's an interesting idea. It'd have its own set of difficulties...how do they re-integrate? Particularly with all the changes?

 

I'd seen the combat doctrine as leaning towards dislocating attacks, hit and run, short range firefights, and heavy use of subterfuge. With the independence angle I already had built up they start to sound closer to Raven Guard. I'm wondering if they would be a better progentior chapter.

 

I don't mind the feedback at all, quite the contrary.

[Galrion]

small update to the battle of mantzes, organization,and combat doctrine.

[Galrion]

Filled out the Beliefs section. Unless I get some pretty negative C & C I'll consider that chunk done. So, please, comment. Let me know if it could be stronger. The rest is still very much a WiP so I'd appreciate any help in shaping it into the work of art I'm sure it could be :P

[NightrawenII]

Ioannes was famed for constantly proclaiming the Imperial Creed as he smote his foes.

- Except the Space Marines don't follow the Imperial Creed. It's especially dubious for member of 1st Founding Chapter like the RavenGuard.

- Btw, why is he not a Chaplain?

 

Located in the Bantian subsector of the Segmentum Ultima, the Sons of Thunder call the planet Thrakia home.

- Planet Thracia already exists.

 

At one time, they had controlled several different systems, but gradually the pressure of constant attacks pushed them back into their home system.

- Warp travel was impossible during the Age of Strife. This is a little unbelievable.

 

The Thrakia system was constantly attacked by one xenos breed or another. Millenia of conflict with the xenos had made them paranoid and filled with an intense hatred of all xenos.

- xenos... xenos... xenos...

 

Instead of the standard reserve and scout companies, the Chapter maintains nine fully functional companies with scouts attached to each. Strategos Ioannes desired an increased level of flexibility and thought this gave it to him.

- Aha! Another guy, who thought better than Primarch and 90% Chapters. ^_^ Tell me how is this organisation more flexible than codex one.

 

As time went on the chapter organization evolved so that each company was tasked with the defense of each of the eight worlds in the subsector.

- Why? Space Marine Chapter is force of rapid response, tasked with the defence of entire sector(s). Why would your marines bother with stationary defence of one Emperor-forgotten sub-sector? This is the task of Imperial Guard. Leave it to them, do your Duty.

 

But just he allowed the use of the warp for travel, did he not ban the use of Psykers in the legions? Should we heed his wisdom on the one hand and discard it with the other? No! This speaks of heresy!

- It's too soon to speak of heresy, while we don't know when, how and why the Librarians were allowed again.

 

For the Emperor is God, knows all, and sees all.

~

The Sons of Thunder are fanatically devoted to the Emperor. They recognize that he truly is God.

- The Space Marines don't worship Emperor as God. Dubious practice for 3rd Founding Chapter.

 

The geneseed of the Sons of Thunder is that of Corax and the Ravenguard.

- Gene-seed of RaveGuard is damaged beyond repair. How this affects your Chapter?

[Galrion]

- Btw, why is he not a Chaplain?

No reason really.

 

Except the Space Marines don't follow the Imperial Creed. It's especially dubious for member of 1st Founding Chapter like the RavenGuard.

I know they don't generally follow it, but some chapters seems closer than others to these beliefs.

 

Planet Thracia already exists.

Thrakia too close to Thracia?

 

Warp travel was impossible during the Age of Strife. This is a little unbelievable xenos... xenos... xenos...

fair enough

 

Aha! Another guy, who thought better than Primarch and 90% Chapters. Tell me how is this organisation more flexible than codex one.

I don't really get this I guess, there are plenty of non-codex chapters in the GW background. In fact, it seems more ignored than observed.

 

- The Space Marines don't worship Emperor as God. Dubious practice for 3rd Founding Chapter.

I got the impression through the HH books that the Emperor was seen as godlike and that only his specific commands kept any worship at bay and this only barely. You've got Garro by the end of tFotE already a believer in him. At this point the Emperor is still around and had recently been with them. By the third founding the Imperial cult is official and the serving marines would never have fought directly alongside the Emperor.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

- Btw, why is he not a Chaplain?

No reason really.

 

Might as well make him one then.

 

Except the Space Marines don't follow the Imperial Creed. It's especially dubious for member of 1st Founding Chapter like the RavenGuard.

I know they don't generally follow it, but some chapters seems closer than others to these beliefs.

 

Actually, there are several chapters that follow the Imperial Creed. Maybe I'll even remember one at some point. But I could still see them following the Creed.

 

Planet Thracia already exists.

Thrakia too close to Thracia?

 

Yes.

 

Aha! Another guy, who thought better than Primarch and 90% Chapters. Tell me how is this organisation more flexible than codex one.

I don't really get this I guess, there are plenty of non-codex chapters in the GW background. In fact, it seems more ignored than observed.

 

Actually, of the nine Loyalists Legions and the two Bigshot Successors, only four are codex divergent, excluding the Dark Angels, because they simply switch around the numbers of a few companies from a basic perspective. Also, those divergent chapters are bcoming fewer and feer,while the number of codex-adherent chapters becomes greater and greater. This is the mighty Codex Astartes, written by Guilliman himself, updated throughout the years, and, as TEC states, it restricts the Astartes to supreme flexibility and takes away the their ability to pigeonhole themselves.

 

- The Space Marines don't worship Emperor as God. Dubious practice for 3rd Founding Chapter.

I got the impression through the HH books that the Emperor was seen as godlike and that only his specific commands kept any worship at bay and this only barely. You've got Garro by the end of tFotE already a believer in him. At this point the Emperor is still around and had recently been with them. By the third founding the Imperial cult is official and the serving marines would never have fought directly alongside the Emperor.

 

See point 2.

[NightrawenII]

- The Space Marines don't worship Emperor as God. Dubious practice for 3rd Founding Chapter.

I got the impression through the HH books that the Emperor was seen as godlike and that only his specific commands kept any worship at bay and this only barely. You've got Garro by the end of tFotE already a believer in him. At this point the Emperor is still around and had recently been with them. By the third founding the Imperial cult is official and the serving marines would never have fought directly alongside the Emperor.

Observe:

The Cults of the Space Marines were formed long before the Ecclesiarchy became a powerful force within the Imperium, and they hold to their beliefs stubbornly, disdaining the fanatical ravings of the Ministorum. Their ideology features fundamental theological differences from the teachings of the Ecclesiarchy. The main point of contention between the Space Marines and the Ecclesiarchy occurs in how they perceive the Emperor. To the Ecclesiarchy, the Emperor is a god, the most divine being, the Saviour of Mankind and its eternal guardian. The Space Marines revere the Emperor as a brilliant, inspired man, but a man nonetheless. This forms a major schism between the two organisations.

~ Index Astartes

 

Actually, there are several chapters that follow the Imperial Creed. Maybe I'll even remember one at some point. But I could still see them following the Creed.

I know one, the Fire Angels and they are later Founding, 25th to be precise.

[Galrion]

Big changes across the board.

 

I know one, the Fire Angels and they are later Founding, 25th to be precise.

 

White Consuls do, changed to make them the progenitor chapter

[Andurin Marvak]

I think their name needs a little explanation. I know what it's about, but the other people reading the IA probably do not. Their background seems somewhat rushed. Try beefing up the beliefs section. Also, while the various engagements they've been in are nice to talk about, it seems like you mostly focused on this as opposed to fleshing out other sections of the IA. Your engagements don't necessarily give you as much character as actually giving your chapter character.

 

On a positive side, for a first draft, this really isn't all that bad.

[Commander Dante jr.]

could you make it so they're enemies of the Sons of Dante warband?

[Andurin Marvak]

Dante, that's something I get the feeling would be more appropriate to do over PM. This place is for critique and advice (and sometimes, if you're good, accolades), not asking if someone wants to mingle fluff.

[Galrion]

I think their name needs a little explanation. I know what it's about, but the other people reading the IA probably do not. Their background seems somewhat rushed. Try beefing up the beliefs section. Also, while the various engagements they've been in are nice to talk about, it seems like you mostly focused on this as opposed to fleshing out other sections of the IA. Your engagements don't necessarily give you as much character as actually giving your chapter character.

Added the reasoning behind the name. The initial reasons for the engagements were to note battles that marked changes in combat doctrine and organization. And the first engagement they were in. In the first pass the Battle of Mantzes was initially hugely significant, but after severl rewrites the subject matter it touches is pretty small. What else should be in the beliefs? I've covered their attitudes towards the warp, aliens, the Emperor, and war.

 

could you make it so they're enemies of the Sons of Dante warband?

gimme a link them and I'll see what I can do.

[Galrion]

getting irritated with the painter and the edits. The color scheme was a rich blue in the painter. Turn it into a link, purple. Every time I edit the first post I lose the name, origin, and all the BBcode up to that point.