Ecritter Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 Save the work off board in Word or another such program and simply replace the first post each time. It will keep you from loosing stuff every edit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223076-knights-vulpine-321/page/2/#findComment-2686922 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galrion Posted March 18, 2011 Author Share Posted March 18, 2011 Thanks to everyone that helped me work on this chapter. However, after all the edits and changes I've reached a point where I feel the chapter has become a bit schizophrenic. On the one hand I've got a deeply religious chapter that avoids certain strategies/tactics/what have you due to its beliefs. On the other I've got a chapter that will use any trick or tactic for victory despite what it may do to their reputation. I think it might be better if I split the chapter in two and explored the two themes seperately. If anyone thinks I can still make the two mesh, let me know and I'll try, but I'm struggling to see it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223076-knights-vulpine-321/page/2/#findComment-2692789 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecritter Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 In the end you have to be true to your vision of the Chapter. If you feel you've drifted away from your vision, just take a few days to look things over. Do a rewrite and get back on track is my best advice. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223076-knights-vulpine-321/page/2/#findComment-2692808 Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightrawenII Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Thanks to everyone that helped me work on this chapter. However, after all the edits and changes I've reached a point where I feel the chapter has become a bit schizophrenic. On the one hand I've got a deeply religious chapter that avoids certain strategies/tactics/what have you due to its beliefs. On the other I've got a chapter that will use any trick or tactic for victory despite what it may do to their reputation. I think it might be better if I split the chapter in two and explored the two themes seperately. If anyone thinks I can still make the two mesh, let me know and I'll try, but I'm struggling to see it. Ask Ultramarines, they have the similar problem... ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223076-knights-vulpine-321/page/2/#findComment-2693033 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galrion Posted March 18, 2011 Author Share Posted March 18, 2011 Thanks to everyone that helped me work on this chapter. However, after all the edits and changes I've reached a point where I feel the chapter has become a bit schizophrenic. On the one hand I've got a deeply religious chapter that avoids certain strategies/tactics/what have you due to its beliefs. On the other I've got a chapter that will use any trick or tactic for victory despite what it may do to their reputation. I think it might be better if I split the chapter in two and explored the two themes seperately. If anyone thinks I can still make the two mesh, let me know and I'll try, but I'm struggling to see it. Ask Ultramarines, they have the similar problem... :) Are you refering to being the exemplar of a codex chapter but specializing against tyranids or is it something else? I guess I could make them a deeply conflicted chapter, where one belief may be in ascendance while the other is in decline thus creating a cycle. I don't see that too often in Chapters. I thought that they were typically pretty monolithic and this would create strife on a fairly large scale within the chapter. It might make them more characterful, but will it be believable within the shared universe? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223076-knights-vulpine-321/page/2/#findComment-2693457 Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightrawenII Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Thanks to everyone that helped me work on this chapter. However, after all the edits and changes I've reached a point where I feel the chapter has become a bit schizophrenic. On the one hand I've got a deeply religious chapter that avoids certain strategies/tactics/what have you due to its beliefs. On the other I've got a chapter that will use any trick or tactic for victory despite what it may do to their reputation. I think it might be better if I split the chapter in two and explored the two themes seperately. If anyone thinks I can still make the two mesh, let me know and I'll try, but I'm struggling to see it. Ask Ultramarines, they have the similar problem... :cuss Are you refering to being the exemplar of a codex chapter but specializing against tyranids or is it something else? Eh, no. The Ultramarines follows the teachings of Codex to the letter. - But the Codex Astartes is living document constantly updated and rewritten. Paradox in its finest. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223076-knights-vulpine-321/page/2/#findComment-2693561 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapter Master Ignis Domus Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Thanks to everyone that helped me work on this chapter. However, after all the edits and changes I've reached a point where I feel the chapter has become a bit schizophrenic. On the one hand I've got a deeply religious chapter that avoids certain strategies/tactics/what have you due to its beliefs. On the other I've got a chapter that will use any trick or tactic for victory despite what it may do to their reputation. I think it might be better if I split the chapter in two and explored the two themes seperately. If anyone thinks I can still make the two mesh, let me know and I'll try, but I'm struggling to see it. Ask Ultramarines, they have the similar problem... :cuss Are you refering to being the exemplar of a codex chapter but specializing against tyranids or is it something else? According to their White Dwarf article, they were added to the Codex at some point. It is a living document after all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223076-knights-vulpine-321/page/2/#findComment-2696553 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andurin Marvak Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Wait, so if it's a living document, do Chapters just sort of add little things here and there as they see fit? As in, each Chapter has a unique(on some level) Codex Astartes? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223076-knights-vulpine-321/page/2/#findComment-2696923 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galrion Posted March 22, 2011 Author Share Posted March 22, 2011 Really read my IA and realized that the huge division was more in my head than the text. I had forgotten how much got changed from some of my earlier thoughts. I added some more BBcode in the form of sidebars and captions. Changed the founding to create a more youthful chapter. I guessed on the founding, if someone knows exactly when the 12th founding rolled around let me know. *edit* nevermind about the founding. Found the info, changed it to the 14th. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223076-knights-vulpine-321/page/2/#findComment-2697110 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 Edit *What I said had already been said, so I removed it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223076-knights-vulpine-321/page/2/#findComment-2697198 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkchild130 Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 Wait, so if it's a living document, do Chapters just sort of add little things here and there as they see fit? As in, each Chapter has a unique(on some level) Codex Astartes? 10,000 years since it was written, more than a thousand chapters been created in that time, many of these will have unique experiences and never meet. I'm going to say yes, as it would be impossible to standardise a living document that large, spread over that much space, for that long. Darkchild Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223076-knights-vulpine-321/page/2/#findComment-2697444 Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightrawenII Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 Hmmm... Ioannes, a zealous Chaplain with the White Consuls, had proven his mettle many times over. - Why Chaplain? He is priest, not commander. The Rylar Heresy & The Cleansing of Haggedlim - The Abaddon's Fourth Black Crusade was in M.34. - The Rylar Heresy is sort of pointless. It was Belizar that began laying out modifications to the Chapter titles and changes to the Knights Vulpine organization. His plans and strategies were encapsulated in his work, the Strategik. Belizar served as Chapter Master, now Strategos, for centuries, putting his mark on the chapter. It was Belizar that established the Test of the Fox. - Once again, some random dude thinks that he can outdo the Codex Astartes... :P The Battle of Mantzes - What is the point of this? Organization The Codex recognizes the need to occasionally break squads into smaller units, but the Knights Vulpine have formalized this division. Each squad is led by a Dekarch. When this occurs, the Dekarch will lead one unit and the other will be led by the Pentrarch. - Ahem, no. The Combat squad is lead by Squad Leader and his rank is fully formalized, but he is MIA since the Codex: Ultramarines 2nd ed. :P The Strategos of the Knights Vulpine also rules the Bisanthe system. The Strategos must be able to understand and anticipate the subtleties of the Bisanthean political arena. This was not always a requirement and the Chapter as a whole suffered. The story of Strategos Raminos is used as the textbook example of this flaw. While undoubtedly formidable on the battlefield, he lacked the essential subtlety that should define a Strategos of the Knights Vulpine. - Really? What I recall, he made some strategic mistakes, not political. Combat Doctrine The Knights consider this work to be genius. *facepalm* The Knights Vulpine believe in matching their tactics to their opponents. - The way you are saying it is like this is complete mystery to other Chapters. ;) Rumors have it that they are not averse to employing spies and assassins to gain an advantage. - Using spies, when fighting against Xenos is impossible and against Chaos dangerous. Wait, so if it's a living document, do Chapters just sort of add little things here and there as they see fit? As in, each Chapter has a unique(on some level) Codex Astartes? The original Codex was compiled approximately ten thousand years ago in the aftermath of the Horus Heresy. It is not known what form the original took: it may have been a manuscript or it may have been a compilation of holo-files or even some combination. Of course manuscript copies were made and distributed. The oldest surviving copy of the Codex is reputed to be the Apocrypha of Skaros. The Liber Arcanum of Grand Marshall Tolof and the Holo-Record 442/33508; Gant Manuscript v2 of the Ceris Archive have some claim to this honour as well. Over the millennia the copies have been copied and recopied many times in order to preserve them. Inevitably, mistakes occur and so it is unlikely that any two copies of the Codex will be identical. Furthermore, the work is constantly being reanalysed and reinterpreted. The original prose style of Roboute is at best archaic and in some cases almost unintelligible. This has led to many varied interpretations over the centuries and to many situations where two entirely different doctrines have been legitimately claimed as 'official Codex' at the same time. ~ Insignium Astartes Funny, don't you think? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223076-knights-vulpine-321/page/2/#findComment-2697457 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpecialIssue Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 "The original prose style of Roboute is at best archaic and in some cases almost unintelligible." Ha! I think I just might have to sig that! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223076-knights-vulpine-321/page/2/#findComment-2697464 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galrion Posted March 22, 2011 Author Share Posted March 22, 2011 Ioannes, a zealous Chaplain with the White Consuls, had proven his mettle many times over. - Why Chaplain? He is priest, not commander. Umm...on the first page you asked me why he wasn't a chaplain and I responded that there was no reason, Ignis Domus suggested I make him one. So I did. It was Belizar that began laying out modifications to the Chapter titles and changes to the Knights Vulpine organization. His plans and strategies were encapsulated in his work, the Strategik. Belizar served as Chapter Master, now Strategos, for centuries, putting his mark on the chapter. It was Belizar that established the Test of the Fox. - Once again, some random dude thinks that he can outdo the Codex Astartes... I didn't explain this well, i.e. I forgot to mention it entirely. He was just distilling the parts of the Codex he thought most appropriate for his chapter, adding a few things, and slapping his name on it. The most substantive change he really made was just changing some names. The subtext for Belizar, which I think I buried too well, was that he was brilliant, but vain, and not someone you'd really want to trust. If he is a tactical/strategic genius, why didn't he think to warn Ioannes that he was likely walking into a trap? Because he was more than willing to let his Chapter Master die so he could take over. He wanted to make his chapter his chapter. The Battle of Mantzes - What is the point of this? At this point, not a whole lot. Initially an enormous turning point in the chapter, now it's just a reason that the chapter doesn't use much terminator armor The Strategos of the Knights Vulpine also rules the Bisanthe system. The Strategos must be able to understand and anticipate the subtleties of the Bisanthean political arena. This was not always a requirement and the Chapter as a whole suffered. The story of Strategos Raminos is used as the textbook example of this flaw. While undoubtedly formidable on the battlefield, he lacked the essential subtlety that should define a Strategos of the Knights Vulpine. - Really? What I recall, he made some strategic mistakes, not political. To the Knights Vulpine, its the same thing. That kind of thinking about war is equal to that kind of thinking about politics, and if he'd been more adept politically he'd be more adept strategically. Which is why I've got Nicephorous linking the two in a caption to the side, to draw that connection. Organization The Codex recognizes the need to occasionally break squads into smaller units, but the Knights Vulpine have formalized this division. Each squad is led by a Dekarch. When this occurs, the Dekarch will lead one unit and the other will be led by the Pentrarch. - Ahem, no. The Combat squad is lead by Squad Leader and his rank is fully formalized, but he is MIA since the Codex: Ultramarines 2nd ed. Well then, I'll change that bit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223076-knights-vulpine-321/page/2/#findComment-2697818 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapter Master Ignis Domus Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 Wait, so if it's a living document, do Chapters just sort of add little things here and there as they see fit? As in, each Chapter has a unique(on some level) Codex Astartes? Upon returning to Macragge, the value of the Tyrannic War Veterans could not now bedoubted and their incorporation into the Codex Astartes was formally recognised by all the various Masters. Earlier, it talked about how the various chapters met at the Conclave of Hera to discuss their inclusion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223076-knights-vulpine-321/page/2/#findComment-2697925 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 I would also like to add, that if you are going to keep throwing around the Codex Astartes being the law of the Space Marines, and how the living document must be COMPLETELY OBEYED AT ALL TIMES, then look up American History and do research over our presidents and our constitution (Maybe not yours, if you are not American). Our Constitution was written by who we consider some of the best politicians in our history, and it contains our laws. Our leaders are not "allowed to stray outside of the constitution and follow it to the letter." However, we have had many presidents who have broken the rules of the constitution (in fact, some of our greatest), and rather than being impeached (the punishment of these crimes, often also ending in jail), they are supported. I know, America is not the Imperium. However, the Codex Astartes, from what I have found, IS the Constitution of the Astartes. It "must be followed to the letter," but is not. Chapters can get away with it for several reasons, including: The changes are not that differant, the chapters are not all grouped together, so the inquisition can not always find out, the chapters are doing their duty to the Imperium, and having a few extra men will NOT destroy the Imperium, and when an occasional Inquisitor sticks his nose where it does not belong, he "gets lost in a warp storm." Thus, I conclude, that minor changes, and even some medium changes, can be made to the codex, and nothing will happen. First Founding or not, the Inquisition does not care. The reason the BA are still around is because the Inquistion has not found out about the Flaw, and it is still "a rumor." The reason the SW are still around is because they are extremely loyal and, as the codex says, the HLoT decided to let the "Sleeping dogs lie." The reason the Black Templars haven't been removed despite their numbers: They are so spread apart that the Inquisition CAN'T count them all, but they DO keep an eye on them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223076-knights-vulpine-321/page/2/#findComment-2698354 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Here is an excerpt from the Codex: Space Marines about Codex Chapters: The Adeptus Terra has never felt it necessary to enforce the Codex absolutely. Indeed it is doubtful if it could. However, with subsequent foundings they have always favoured the Ultramarines' gene-seed and created new Codex Chapters from their line. With the passage of years, some of these chapters have subsequently strayed from the strict letter of the Codex, introducing new variations but remaining broadly faithful to the principles of Roboute Guilliman. ~Codex Space Marines, 5th Edition, The Codex Chapters, Page 9. This sort of proves my point. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223076-knights-vulpine-321/page/2/#findComment-2698433 Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightrawenII Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 I would also like to add, that if you are going to keep throwing around the Codex Astartes being the law of the Space Marines, and how the living document must be COMPLETELY OBEYED AT ALL TIMES, then look up American History and do research over our presidents and our constitution (Maybe not yours, if you are not American). *sigh* This is not matter of "Codex must be obeyed at all cost", but the fact that the Codex is compendium of the tactical solutions, advices and thoughts of the Imperium's best warriors through the millenia of endless war. You don't follow Codex because you must, but becasue it's silly to ignore this resourceful pool of inspiration. This is like ignoring or even rewriting the principes of the Sun Tzu's Art of War, everyone will *facepalm* at you, because you are apparently dimwit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223076-knights-vulpine-321/page/2/#findComment-2698559 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 *sigh*This is not matter of "Codex must be obeyed at all cost", but the fact that the Codex is compendium of the tactical solutions, advices and thoughts of the Imperium's best warriors through the millenia of endless war. You don't follow Codex because you must, but becasue it's silly to ignore this resourceful pool of inspiration. This is like ignoring or even rewriting the principes of the Sun Tzu's Art of War, everyone will *facepalm* at you, because you are apparently dimwit. Well then, my chapters will follow the example of the Black Templars, and will have larger numbers. I will also divide them up into 12 Great Companies. Then, I will find the best of the Codex Astartes and use those. That way, rather than believing me better than the Codex, I will be merging several differant tactics together, and my chapter will be successful. ^_^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223076-knights-vulpine-321/page/2/#findComment-2698808 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecritter Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Yeah but the trouble comes when you make your chapter seem better then everyone elses. And taking Black Templars does that ... perhaps same idea but using more reasonable way of getting there. Let me ponder a day or two and see if I can come up with an idea. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223076-knights-vulpine-321/page/2/#findComment-2698811 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 I am making a point, not being serious... If he is making a statement that the codex is not an "Obey at all costs," that it is rather like Tsun Tzu's Art of War, then I am going to do what we do, mix the Art of War with Strategy, as well as other books from other regions explaining thier methods of warfare. If it is a "collection of works" I will add that collection with another, which is not a bad idea. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223076-knights-vulpine-321/page/2/#findComment-2698820 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecritter Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 I find it interesting that Son Tzu came up as there was a special on The Art of War over the weekend. Its commonly taught, but not always followed. They gave several instances where those that failed to follow it failed miserably ... including the US in Vietnam. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223076-knights-vulpine-321/page/2/#findComment-2698824 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 We failed in Vietnam because our people failed in this country. The Vietcong had been annihalated during the Tet Offensive, and our own people were calling our soldiers pigs, demons, and immoral. When they returned home, the hippies threw crap on them, spit on them, etc. We won every battle, and we were winning the war, but the Media destroyed our immage. What book we should have followed for Vietnam was The Prince. We also should not have let the media get involved. I can argue this for hours, but it is way off topic. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223076-knights-vulpine-321/page/2/#findComment-2698845 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecritter Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Have you ever read The Art of War? Let me summerize. * Battle don't win a war * Keep the people behind you And that's just the two that you pointed out ... we lost because we were trying to win the battles, and not trying to win the war. EDIT: It is on topic. The Codex is the 40k version of The Art of War. Stray from it at your own peril. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223076-knights-vulpine-321/page/2/#findComment-2698848 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galrion Posted March 23, 2011 Author Share Posted March 23, 2011 I thought Sun Tzu came up because I quoted him a few times...seems like it was more of an aside. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223076-knights-vulpine-321/page/2/#findComment-2698869 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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