how would you handel this

[postal105]

this is the first scenario that is going to be used for a local game store in my area in a tournament that their running.

 

BURN HERETICS, BURN!

Primary Objective – (16pts)

Destroy/Defeat more daemon hosts than your opponent. If the game ends tied then neither

player claims the primary objective.

Secondary Objective – (8pts)

Both players can earn this objective as many times as this instance occurs.

Destroy a daemon host that has suffered at least 2 wounds caused by your opponent.

Tertiary Objective – (4pts)

Both players can earn this objective as many times as this instance occurs.

Destroy a daemon host in melee.

Special Rules

Game lasts 6 turns.

Deployment: Dawn of War

After deployment 3 daemon hosts are placed in a cluster at the center of the table. Any small

based models may serve to represent the daemon hosts.

Daemon Host Rules: At the start of each game turn each daemon host will move 2d6” in a

random direction determined by the scatter die. The daemon host will move through terrain

unhindered and stop 1” from a board edge. If the daemon host comes into contact with a unit

it stops and is considered to have charged the unit.

After the daemon host has moved it will attack the nearest unit (roll a die to determine

randomly if 2 units are equal distances from the daemon host) using the attack profiles below.

When the daemon host attacks, the non-active player will roll for the daemon host.

Blood Boil: If the daemon host is engaged in melee it will use Blood Boil. Place the large blast

template with the center over the daemon host. All models under the template, except the

daemon host, take an S3 hit with an AP of 2.

Warp Blast: If the daemon host is not engaged in melee it will use Warp Blast. Warp Blast is a

shooting attack with the following profile – Range: 36” Strength: 5 AP: 3 Assault: 2

Daemon Host Profile:

M WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv

2d6 5 5 6 6 4 10 0 10 3+ Inv.

 

so you not only have to worry about your opponent you have those 3 crazy things running around.

[Decoy]

Rune Priests. Jaws of the World Wolf. Thunderhammer them in melee and then Jaws them, or Hammarjac them and then Jaws. This way, you get the Primary objective, and you don't run the risk of causing 2 (or more) wounds, allowing your enemy to claim Secondary Objective.

 

If you REALLY want to go after them, Lone Wolves are the best thing you'll find. A Lone Wolf in Termy armor with a Storm Shield/Thunderhammer will WRECK these guys, even with their 3+ Invuln. Furthermore, one Lone Wolf per Daemonhost will allow you to nicely set up a series of Jaws attacks (with a bit of clever positioning); in fact, your enemy could very well be your most valued ally in this regard. Maneuver your Priest to Jaws one unengaged Daemonhost, then Jaws through him and into another DH and a squad of your enemies.

 

Other than Jaws, perhaps Lukas? A squad of 15 Blood Claws gets into it with all three DHs (if moved swiftly); they either destroy the DHs or die off, leaving Lukas in CC with three DHs. Lukas bites it, and if he goes BOOM, he takes all three of them with him. Pretty much an insta-win scenario.

[Stormshrug]

For the primary and secondary, use Long Fangs with Missle Launchers. Since Daemonhosts lack the "Daemon" special rule, they don't have Eternal Warrior. Waste them with S8 fire.

 

Put the rest of your points into solid melee squads to clean up on the tertiary objective. Logan plus some PAWG and Terminators (a few Storm Shields to take hits and some Power Fists/Thunder Hammers for instagibbing goodness) would probably serve you well.

 

Luckily, all of these things are also good for fighting your opponent, too.

 

-Stormshrug

[Decoy]

Stormshrug: The Daemonhosts are T6. The statline is modified; S8 means no more to them than S10. Care to revise your advice for these 4 wound, I10, 3+ Inv monsters?

[Thunderhawk3015]

Rather evil, but still allowed atm, but throw in a Demonhunters allies Grey Knights unit with psycannons or two units with pyscannons. Ignores invulns and all that other goodness.

[trefenwyd]

Sorry, don't mean to vent, but this is one of the stupidest ideas I've heard of, if played competitively. If its all just for fun, then have a blast with your standard list. If it's for competition, run 3 drop pods full of combi-plasma. You should be able to kill 2 of the deamonhost turn 1, and you win. Now, if you get victory points for kiling the enemy, that's another thing, but if the margin of victory is solely decided by killing daemonhosts, I'd drop the pods in, support with rifleman dreads (if you run Logan) in case you only get 3 wounds on one of them, and after you win on turn 1, spend the next hour and 45 minutes trolling the store watching the other games.

[Warhead01]

who shoots ..with the Daemonhosts? if both players take turns then they could shoot each other..the hosts I mean.

[postal105]

@uberwolve When the daemon host attacks, the non-active player will roll for the daemon host. aka your oponent will do all rolls for them.

 

@ trefenwyd well that drop pods are fine but on of the other ones has this lovely thing in it Defensive Scramblers: No unit or model may Deep Strike within 6” of the defensive deployment zone. If a unit scatters into this area they stop 1” from the line.

 

if you guys like i can post the other 2 scenarios for you to look over but i have a feeling that the store ppl were trying to make this a fun event just from reading the scenarios but most of the people whom are going to be coming their always hard core

[Decoy]

Sorry, don't mean to vent, but this is one of the stupidest ideas I've heard of, if played competitively. If its all just for fun, then have a blast with your standard list. If it's for competition, run 3 drop pods full of combi-plasma. You should be able to kill 2 of the deamonhost turn 1, and you win. Now, if you get victory points for kiling the enemy, that's another thing, but if the margin of victory is solely decided by killing daemonhosts, I'd drop the pods in, support with rifleman dreads (if you run Logan) in case you only get 3 wounds on one of them, and after you win on turn 1, spend the next hour and 45 minutes trolling the store watching the other games.

 

Reading comprehension is something you might want to look into, mate. Even two Combiplas squads per DH will (on average) just -barely- be enough to drop each Daemonhost, given their T6 and 3+ Invulnerable. Moreover, from what I've gathered, you have to beat the opposing army to stand a chance at winning, as Draws ignore the primary Objective, meaning that if he follows your advice, there's a good chance he'll lose.

 

Only the secondary and tertiary objectives matter regardless of the result of the game.

 

 

To the OP: Honestly, I'd let your opponent worry about the Daemonhosts while you go about your business killing him off. He can kill all the Daemonhosts he wants, but as Grey Mage once wisely said, "Annihilation is always a victory condition." Drop everything he has from the board, and you win. Period.

[trefenwyd]

Unless my mathammer fails me, and it rarely does, one full combi-plasma squad is 2.96 wounds, on average, on a daemonhost. With supporting fire, you should be able to down 2 daemonhosts in 1 turn. (2 squads on 1 = 6 wounds on a 4 wound model, remaining squad + lascannons and rifleman dreads = 2nd dead daemonhost)

 

And I interpreted the OP's scenario as if the players "draw" in # of daemonhosts killed (0 each or 1 each), then no-one gets points for the primary objective. Otherwise we need to know if they're playing kill points v. objectives, etc. to really debate the "how do I win" answer. And since none of that is stated, I'm assuming that the only victory points in the game are from killing daemonhosts (which is my issue with the whole scenario - why make a scenario that in no way, shape, or form makes you attack or defend against the human opponent across from you - takes all the fun out of it!!!)

 

For the OP, yes, if your same army needs to tackle 3 scenarios, posting them all is helpful, along with limitations (who really has 30 combi-plasmas anyway!) in your army build.

[Decoy]

My Mathhammer almost syncs up with yours at 2.86 per Plasma squad, meaning 5 wounds from two full squads of Combiplasma (rounding down, of course, to preserve ). However, you're also bringing to the table an unknown number of Lascannons and "Riflemen Dreads" (which I have yet to see hit the table since the dawn of 5th edition, probably for a reason.) You're proposing a list that has a glaring, hideous, easily-exploitable hole in it: If the game lasts for six turns, and you spend Turn 1 devoted to bringing down Daemonhosts, you're opening yourself to a world of hurt as the opponent across the table laughs as you waste all your firepower on the DH, allowing him to obliterate your army and still win.

 

All Objectives, even Primary objectives, are second to the First Rule of 40K. Annihilation is ALWAYS a Victory condition. If I were lined up against the army you're proposing Tref, I'd just sit back, have a good chuckle as your Plasma misfires make my job just that much easier as you waste your shots on the DH, and then blow you away without even having to worry about return fire (especially if I have first turn.) Any competent opponent would rip through a build like the one you're suggesting, and I think you do a disservice to the OP and the Wolf community here by suggesting such a one-dimensional, can't-win strategy. Even if he didn't have three scenarios to deal with... I mean c'mon, man. Don't purposefully steer people to instant losses.

[postal105]

@ trefenwyd kill points are going to be used as tie barkers only. so kill points are not as important as the objectives themselves unless you Annihilate your opponent.

[Stormshrug]

Stormshrug: The Daemonhosts are T6. The statline is modified; S8 means no more to them than S10. Care to revise your advice for these 4 wound, I10, 3+ Inv monsters?

 

Ah, fair. The statline is all crooked, so when I read it, it looked like they were T4, like normal Daemonhosts.

 

As to revising my advice - meh, not really. You won't kill them as quickly, but Missile Launcher Long Fangs are still damned efficient. With that 3++, the trick is going to be weight of fire, and you should be able to apply pretty adequate pressure with a normal gunline. If it's ever sub-optimal to shoot a Daemonhost, just shoot your opponent with them instead.

 

-Stormshrug

[Loketh]

I must say that for this I would rather Beethoven it.

[Warhead01]

This math hammer messes with me.. when you say full squad of combi-plaz how many is that?

I would use 7 to 10 in power armour.. so thats like 14 to 20 shots ..from their.. ? dead stuff!

[Decoy]

This math hammer messes with me.. when you say full squad of combi-plaz how many is that?

I would use 7 to 10 in power armour.. so thats like 14 to 20 shots ..from their.. ? dead stuff!

 

Which is inherrently a squad bordering on the cost of a Land Raider, and without any further upgrades, is nigh useless against the opponent's army in a long fight. TWO such squads is not only occupying two Force Orgs of Elites (as you can only do this with Wolf Guard), but is bordering 500 points of your army; even in a 2000 point game such a waste of points is unacceptable, pushing the limit of absurd and suicidal.

[postal105]

I knew their was a detail I was leaving out the you are restricted to 1750 points for the whole army.

 

thanks for mentioning point costs Decoy.

[Warhead01]

a waste of points is unacceptable, pushing the limit of absurd and suicidal.

 

Yes I know it is a lot of points How would you fix such a unit to be more points effective ?

 

I began using the combie-plas to deal with nid synaps facing their last codex. warriors being much harder then.

[DV8]

Moreover, from what I've gathered, you have to beat the opposing army to stand a chance at winning, as Draws ignore the primary Objective, meaning that if he follows your advice, there's a good chance he'll lose.

 

Only the secondary and tertiary objectives matter regardless of the result of the game.

 

 

To the OP: Honestly, I'd let your opponent worry about the Daemonhosts while you go about your business killing him off. He can kill all the Daemonhosts he wants, but as Grey Mage once wisely said, "Annihilation is always a victory condition." Drop everything he has from the board, and you win. Period.

 

And I interpreted the OP's scenario as if the players "draw" in # of daemonhosts killed (0 each or 1 each), then no-one gets points for the primary objective. Otherwise we need to know if they're playing kill points v. objectives, etc. to really debate the "how do I win" answer. And since none of that is stated, I'm assuming that the only victory points in the game are from killing daemonhosts (which is my issue with the whole scenario - why make a scenario that in no way, shape, or form makes you attack or defend against the human opponent across from you - takes all the fun out of it!!!)

 

For the OP, yes, if your same army needs to tackle 3 scenarios, posting them all is helpful, along with limitations (who really has 30 combi-plasmas anyway!) in your army build.

 

In Warhammer 40,000, you always ALWAYS "win" the game if you Annihilate your opponent (as in wipe them off the table). Even in missions where Kill Points aren't used (i.e. Objectives), should you have no scoring Troops but manage to wipe your opponent off the field, then you still win regardless of how many objectives you currently control.

 

The issue here is determining how a player "wins". In tournament fashion (which have primary, secondary and tertiary objectives), the winner is determined by the three objectives, those accruing points for successfully completing them. The player with the most points wins, the margin of victory determined by the difference in the collected points. Should a player win by Annihilation, they are typically treated as having successfully completed the Primary Objective, even if their army couldn't realistically accomplish it (e.g. no Troops, but having to claim Objectives). The opponent however, by completing the Secondary or Tertiary objectives, can close the gap thus yielding only a minor victory.

 

The issue with this scenario here is that it is unclear what happens if a player Annihilates his opponent. Is he treated as automatically completing the Primary Objective? Two situations will result:

1. Annihilation equals completing the Primary, regardless of how many Daemonhosts a player has actually killed.
   
2. Annihilating the opponent means nothing. Only the actual number of Daemonhosts killed matters for completion of the Objectives.
   

 

If situation 1, then a smart player will, as mentioned, simply ignore the Daemonhosts and focus on destroying the enemy. This means your opponent cannot capitalize on the Secondary Objective (as you never inflict any wounds on a Daemonhost), and the Tertiary Objective, even if they destroy all three Hosts in melee, will only net them a total of 12 points (a loss, and I can guarantee you it would cost them dearly to wipe out even a single Daemonhost in melee, even if knocked down to one wound). If the opponent focuses on the Daemonhosts and knocks one down to 1 or 2 wounds, a clever player might capitalize on this and kill the wounded Daemonhost to claim the Secondary Objective to greater increase the points margin. However, crucial to this strategy is actually Annihilating your opponent. If you leave even a single model alive, your opponent will win the game (assuming they complete the Primary Objective).

 

If situation 2, then even a player who is Annihilated will win if they complete the Primary Objective.

 

Basically you'll want to build an army that will do 1 of 2 things.

 

Guarantee you the Annihilation of your opponent.

Guarantee you the complete destruction of the Daemonhosts, even at the expensive of being Annihilated by your opponent.

 

I hate to advocate it, but a Thunderlord list is probably the best list you could field in a situation like this, with some modification (see below). It guarantees you the tools to decide whether it is more feasible to focus on Annihilating your opponent, or completely destroying the Daemonhosts. Using Thunderlords in combat against Daemonhosts will allow you to easily net both the Primary and Tertiary Objectives, as with Toughness 5 (Thunderwolf mount), 2+ armor save (Runic Armor) and 3+ invulnerable save (Storm Shield) means they will damn near be untouchable against a Daemonhost. Simply make sure your Thunderlords either face the Daemonhosts 1 on 1, or gang up on them, (re: don't throw squishy units against the Daemonhost), meaning that you should be able to at the very least win combat against the Daemonhost, running them down if they fail their Leadership test.

 

I am not quite sure on the wording of the Thunder Hammer rules (as I don't ever use them); I am operating under the assumption that the way it works is models hit by it but not killed are reduced to Initiative 1. If it requires a wound actually be inflicted, ignore everything below this.

 

HQ // Rune Priest: 130 pts

- Jaws of the World Wolf

- Terminator Armor, Chooser of the Slain

 

Elites // 4 Wolf Guard: 252 pts

- Arjac Rockfist

- 3 Terminator Armor, Cyclone Missile Launcher (30)

- Drop Pod

 

The basic idea is that you attach the Rune Priest to the Wolf Guard (during deployment) and throw them immediately at the Daemonhosts. The moment the unit lands the Rune Priest has to deploy on a side of the Drop Pod OPPOSITE all the Wolf Guard, but so that both Arjac and the Rune Priest have Line of Sight to the closest Daemonhost. Arjac throws Foehammer, stuns the thing, and then the Rune Priest casts Jaws to drop it into the Abyss. It's risky, but having Arjac right in the midst of the Daemonhosts allows him to Foehammer them in combination with Jaws, with Terminator Armor for survivability against Warp Blast.

 

You place the Chooser at the center to prevent the enemy from Infiltrating units close to the Daemonhosts (thus giving you some room to work with before the enemy can close the gap). Dawn of War will do the rest.

 

I am assuming a stacked army (e.g. Thunderlords + Long Fangs) so the Rune Priest won't have much of an army to ride with (thus keeping him safer).

 

EDIT: If the Tournament requires the same army list for all three custom scenarios, then ignore the stupidness above, and simply take a bog-standard Thunderlord list, as it is still a fairly competitive army list.

 

 

DV8

[Warhead01]

Another thought occurs to me.

not sure how to apply it though. in the large rule book. in the back it talks about multi player games.

in those games more than 1 players units may not be involved in the same close combat. T

he question here is how are the Daemonhosts treated?

If the opponent has assaulted the Daemonhosts charge his unit and tag 1 of your models to the Daemonhosts wipe his unit by some absurd number of unsaved wounds and combat rez may do the rest for you? if you get lucky and wound the Daemonhosts you may get a bunch of points out of it.

[Warhead01]

bubble post? zounds!

[postal105]

@ DV8 unfortunately you are required to have the same list for all 3 games.

 

@ uberwolve i will find out about the way they intend the Daemonhosts to be treated on the board.

[DV8]

I'd go with a Thunderlord list then.

 

 

DV8

[postal105]

Another thought occurs to me.

not sure how to apply it though. in the large rule book. in the back it talks about multi player games.

in those games more than 1 players units may not be involved in the same close combat. T

he question here is how are the Daemonhosts treated?

If the opponent has assaulted the Daemonhosts charge his unit and tag 1 of your models to the Daemonhosts wipe his unit by some absurd number of unsaved wounds and combat rez may do the rest for you? if you get lucky and wound the Daemonhosts you may get a bunch of points out of it.

 

this is the response i got regarding you question uberwolve sorry it took so long

 

hopefully i can clear this up for you, as it is a rather important point.

 

deamonhosts have no actual close combat ability, their combat is handled in what amounts to their own shooting phase. also, they can not be locked in combat. think of attacking one as being similar to attacking a vehicle, though you still must go against it's weapon skill to hit. on it's activation it will still move 2d6 in a random direction, stopping if it contacts a unit, then use the appropriate ability. Blood Boil if it is in contact with an enemy, Warp Blast if it isn't.

 

hope that helps!

[Warhead01]

I'm not sure then. my "answer" would be applied as per fearless rules /no retreat rules. if the deamonhosts is not fearless and or just doesn't take tests any tests .. (like a drednaught wouldn't) then I guess its back to the old ways, a good ol' skrum! ( close combat)

But if its close combat attack is resolved as shooting the your rune priest with saga of the beast slayer could do the job as long as he is with a pack to take the saves or wounds for him. deamonhosts being clasified as a deamon? then jobs a goodin.