Tabgoi Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Now, I hear a lot of people bring up blood drinking and linking it to the BAs like they are special in this. Maybe I am reading this wrong, but per the Rites of Initiation: "Phase 8 - Omophagea. This is a complicated implant. It really becomes a part of the brain, but is actually situated within the spinal cord between the cervical and thoracic vertebrae. Four nerver sheaths called neuroclea are implanted between the spine and the preomnoral stomach wall. The omophagea is designed to absorb the genetic generated in animal tissue as a function of memory, experience or innate ability. This endows the Marine with an unusual survival trait. He can actually learn by eating. If a Marine eats a part of a creature, he can actually learn by eating. If a Marine eats part of a creature. he will absorb some of the memories of that creature. This can be very useful in an alien environment. Incidentally, it is the prescence of this organ which has created the various flsh eating and blood drinking rituals for which many Chapters are known, as well as giving the names to Chapters such as the Blood Drinkers, Flesh Teares, etc." So per this it would seem that literally ANY Chapter that has a working gene seed replication that includes an intact Omophagea would drink the blood of enemies or eat their flesh if nothing else for the tactical advantage. Not even the Ultra Smurfs would pass up a chance to literally learn part of the enemies battle plan simple by having a little sip. Aside from that, if it was included in the standard geneseed it was obviously the intention of the Emperor for Space Marines to use this ability. Should it not be a matter of any Chapter that does not drink blood being put under Inquisitorrial scrutiny for denying the gifts given to them by the Emperor? As rejecting his gifts would be seen by religous fanatics as a heretical rejection of the Emperor himself. I know second edition they basically flat out called BA vampires, but still. Am I maybe looking too far into nothing, or does it seem reasonable that the haughty Dark Angel that looks down his nose at us for our rites and practices occasionally gets a bit of blood on his robes when he misses his mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hfran Morkai Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 I think the point is the Blood Angels sort of ritualize it (or this is what I have been led to believe). You don't come across many instances of Space Marines consuming flesh in the fluff though, even if my Space Wolf character does eat just about everyone he kills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decoy Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 I think the big part is that non-BAs eat small pieces of gibblybits to gain knowledge, et cetera. BAs ritualize the blood-drinking beyond the normal pale (including it in their rites of passage, et cetera), and in some cases of successor chapters, keep on chowing down, regardless of if it's friend or foe. There's a distinct difference between... *nibble nibble* "They went this way." and... *OM NOM NOM* MAIM KILL BURN MAIM KILL BURN! *NOM NOM* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gv0zD Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 The mentioned organ enables marines to drink the enemies' blood to get information etc. But Blood Angles' rites of initiation, the Exsanguination, is based on drinking the primarch's blood. It's the holy ritual when the aspirant takes a sip of the sacred blood from the sacred cup (the Red Grail). The Blood Chalices are taken into battle to encourage and boost spirit of BA. And the sight of their brothers' blood drives BA into frenzy (read the Sanguiniary Priests entry in C:BA, where it is said that the process of retrieving the pregenoids requires the Priest to focus greatly as the sight of the fallen brother's blood could drive him mad). IMHO BA ritualize not the blood-drinking, but the blood itself, particularly their primarch's and their own blood. It's their most sacred relic. The blood-drinking part is their "dark side". The flaw, which increases their bloodlust (not necessarily thirst for blood) and drives them mad sometimes, is their dark secret. Some of BA are rumored to become vampiric beasts, but that's a rumor without any proof (they are locked in Tower Amoreo and no one knows for sure what happens there). That's the most interesting thing about BA IMHO - they ritualize the blood of their father (similarities to Christianity), and at the same time they have an inner beast that, if not controlled, turns them into bloodletting raging beasts (similarities to vapmires [i prefer Vampire the Masquerade]). The combination of holiness and beast, angel and vampire. The literal blood drinking is related to the other Chapters (Flesh Tearers, Flesh Eaters and of course the Blood Drinkers, who had their omophagea malfunctioned). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelOfDeathXIII Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 So per this it would seem that literally ANY Chapter that has a working gene seed replication that includes an intact Omophagea would drink the blood of enemies or eat their flesh if nothing else for the tactical advantage. Not even the Ultra Smurfs would pass up a chance to literally learn part of the enemies battle plan simple by having a little sip. Aside from that, if it was included in the standard geneseed it was obviously the intention of the Emperor for Space Marines to use this ability. Should it not be a matter of any Chapter that does not drink blood being put under Inquisitorrial scrutiny for denying the gifts given to them by the Emperor? As rejecting his gifts would be seen by religous fanatics as a heretical rejection of the Emperor himself. I know second edition they basically flat out called BA vampires, but still. Am I maybe looking too far into nothing, or does it seem reasonable that the haughty Dark Angel that looks down his nose at us for our rites and practices occasionally gets a bit of blood on his robes when he misses his mouth. I'm a dedicated Black Library reader and I recall several novels in which Smurfs used this organ. The first was the novel of Assault on Black Reach in which Telion eats the brains of a Grot. The second is Courage and Honour in which someone eats Tau-brains so they can use their vehicle/codes/weapons... In one of the two it is said that the Ultramarines are one of the very few Chapters who's gene-seed is still pure enough to create a Omophagea. It is also said that they resent using it because when stronger enemies are consumed like this they (partially) lose their mind. So it is my guess that the Blood Angels and their Succesors are the only one who consume their enemies on a regular basis, because they are strong-minded due to their constant battle with the Flaw. So the lack of an Omophagea in most Chapters and the resent to use it in other Chapters might have given the Blood Angels and their Succesors the image of "vampires" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demoulius Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 most chapter can (and probably do) use it. the reason its not mentioned is...well..probably to keep parents from taking their kids out of the hobby. if every novel about space marines read" they ate some brains and were able to stop their battle plan" etc etc parents might be scared off. and not to mention the fact that space marines only resort to it when needed. when you allready beating your opponent to death with his own arm/leg its not really needed to find out his "battle-plan" now is it? :D same issue with the ability to spit acid i think. space marines, can and do use it. but only when the need arises for it. and tbh when your helmet, armor and weaponry is intact its generally not. and in case your capture or such....eh....might as well *spits and chews on metal bars* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shatter Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 I've mentioned the 'fact' that other marines eat flesh before and no one cares. No one lets it define their marines like it does BA. Which sucks as I don't feel it defines my BA yet people call my plastic spacemen vampyrnauts all the time. *shrug* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortysl Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Maybe you should just let it go over your head and not be quite so sensitive about it. The fact is, as far even GW are concerned, Space Wolves are Vikings in space, Dark Angels wear dresses, Blood Angels are vampires in space and Black Templars are knights in space. You obviously like the fluff if you're choosing to play Blood Angels (or you're a power player) so some aspect of their vampiric undertones appealed to you. If your friends are calling them vampirenaughts or whatever, just ignore it. Play the game, enjoy your hobby and relax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Personally I like the drinking blood aspect. I like the hints of vampires in our fluff. I think its more important to us since there are rituals, and there are rumors of people disappearing at battle zones we fight at and being found drained of blood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shatter Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 hehe... don't worry about my ability to fail to care about what people have to say. Besides, there's more angelic references than vampiric ones in the codex. That is what appealed... and Sanguinius being perfect. The vampire thing was a real non-starter for me. It was, as far as I'm concerned a thematic ingredient, not a definition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 hehe... don't worry about my ability to fail to care about what people have to say. Besides, there's more angelic references than vampiric ones in the codex. That is what appealed... and Sanguinius being perfect. The vampire thing was a real non-starter for me. It was, as far as I'm concerned a thematic ingredient, not a definition. Its the beauty of our fluff. You can focus on the angelic, or the Vampiric, or a mix of the two (angels falling to the curse of vamprism). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine God Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 hehe... don't worry about my ability to fail to care about what people have to say. Besides, there's more angelic references than vampiric ones in the codex. That is what appealed... and Sanguinius being perfect. The vampire thing was a real non-starter for me. It was, as far as I'm concerned a thematic ingredient, not a definition. Sanguinius wasn't perfect! He was a Mutant! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nathan Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 i think i read that tthe mortificators? when they make a deal with another marine they drink each others blood. was in the ultra marine book and the ultras were disgusted at it. i see little problem with it. its not like they can catch stds etc from it... well not that i know of anyway... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demoulius Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 i think i read that tthe mortificators? when they make a deal with another marine they drink each others blood. was in the ultra marine book and the ultras were disgusted at it. i see little problem with it. its not like they can catch stds etc from it... well not that i know of anyway... hey slaanesh excists, who knows :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nathan Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 this is why the chaos gods dont work together, abbadon wont let them, the fear of nurgle and slanesh infecting his entire force... pukes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shatter Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 hehe... don't worry about my ability to fail to care about what people have to say. Besides, there's more angelic references than vampiric ones in the codex. That is what appealed... and Sanguinius being perfect. The vampire thing was a real non-starter for me. It was, as far as I'm concerned a thematic ingredient, not a definition. Sanguinius wasn't perfect! He was a Mutant! Everyone is a mutant. And this is generally doubly so for a Baalite. yet it doesn't preclude perfection. It's what he did that made him perfect. He knew the future and died trying to be the best he could be. What else is there in being a man? That he had the appearance of an angel only underlines his inner purity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nathan Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 unless the emperor made him to develop wings... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Kezef Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 As a long-term VtM player I love the "inner beast" aspect of the BA and as something of an amateur theoloical scholar I love the angelic theme (my army is an SG force). Allot of people focus on literal blood drinking but i tend to se eit as a more internal struggle. according to fluff (hopefully to be confirmed by the HH BA book) the first hint of the flaw happened on Signus prime when a Bloodthister broke Sanguinius' back, this caused the chapter to go mad with rage and grief. Sanguinius has his own darker side, sugested in the fluff when he went medieval on a horde of mutants that atcked his tribe while he was growing up on baal. To me, the BA are caught between humanity and inhumanity. They embrace culture, art and literature to better understand WHY they fight but they must struggle eternaly with a beast within trying to drive them to destruction for it's own sake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shatter Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 unless the emperor made him to develop wings... I've argued the same thing in a thread in AA. But the argument is a bit of a schrodinger's cat. Ie. one can argue either way, just as GW intends, with their ambiguous fluff-spirit and both are perceptually correct at the same time. a ) Wings are a very tzeenchian touch as far as mutations go which is appropriate for a powerful psyker with the gift of foresight. b ) The Emperor could have designed them as/if He designed him to be the ultimate icon of martyrdom and sacrifice for mankind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tabgoi Posted February 23, 2011 Author Share Posted February 23, 2011 Maybe you should just let it go over your head and not be quite so sensitive about it. The fact is, as far even GW are concerned, Space Wolves are Vikings in space, Dark Angels wear dresses, Blood Angels are vampires in space and Black Templars are knights in space. You obviously like the fluff if you're choosing to play Blood Angels (or you're a power player) so some aspect of their vampiric undertones appealed to you. If your friends are calling them vampirenaughts or whatever, just ignore it. Play the game, enjoy your hobby and relax. I am by no means a power gamer. I have been playing BA since third edition and it still makes me a bit sad that BA players rarely use tac squads anymore. But that is an issue of GW moving them farther and farther from their codex base. At this point they should just stop saying BAs follow the Index Astartes as closely as they can and move it to six assault squads two tactical squads and two dev squads a company as this is how they designed the current codex and the PDF one to be. Most BA players could not hope to field a unit from a single company as they have 30+ assault marines, which is just a bit more then the 20 in a standard company. Over the course of 11 years I have slowly acquired the 6 tac squads, 2 assault squads, and 2 devistator squads that bring me up to the full fifth company in terms of actual boots on the ground, but I am still short of the transports. Anyways, with my own force I like to focus on the purity of intention the BAs display, playing up their angelic nature. They are artists, they tend to do what they can to prevent damage to civillian populations, they hope to bring about a golden age for the Imperium. Like a beacon of light in the grim darkness that surrounds them as the Imperium grinds humanity farther and farther into the ground. And it is great how the very gift that allows them to fight against the darkness also brings it deep into their soul and forces them to master it each and every day or fall to that which they abhor most. I don't dislike the vampire thing, I used to play Vampire the Masquerade under the old wolrd of darkness before it took a dive head first into emo land, I just don't think it is a defining concept. And I am relaxed, I was just wondering what other BA players were thinking on this. I was not expecting space wolves to be the first to answer, guess their subforum is not as active as ours. BTW, for space wolf players. I think our chapters are a lot closer then most others. I mean we both enjoy a good fight in close combat. You guys tried copying our armor, but being color blind it came out grey and by the time you realized the supply guys shafted you it was too late to change without admitting you made a mistake. But you made the effort and that is what counts. Sure you have some hygeine issues, but no one's perfect. :) Okay, the wolf jab was mostly added because my older brother just got back from Afghanistan and I am about to get stuck helping him assemble and paint his new SW army before I can even finish getting my BAs stripped so I can magnetized and repaint them. Guess that means I get to perfect my drilling magnet holes on HIS models before I do it to my own :) . I actually really enjoy the look and feel of the SW armies and would have one of my own except I decided to strip and repaint 180+ minis in my BA army. Once I get a second I am going to post some pics of the work area I just set up for minis and some group shots of my force as I am stripping em down (maybe tonight when I get back home). And I was working on a short story based on my guys, but that is a bit farther out as I think I am spending too much time with character introduct and not enough time on killing the heathens. The short story was really the reason why I posted this as I was looking to see how much of a role it should really be played based on other BA player's response to this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapter Master Ignis Domus Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 The drinking blood aspect of it does not, in fact, link to the Omophagea. Instead, it refers to the initiation rites. Similar to the whole drinking the cup of meade part of the Space Wolf initiation, the new recruits drink the blood of the Sanguinary Priests, who drain their blood into Corbulo's Grail(there may be other ones). They do this because the Sanguinary Priests hold the blood of Sanguinius running through there veins, thus imparting the blood of Sanguinius into their bodies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortysl Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 That he had the appearance of an angel only underlines his inner purity. In an age where religion was being wiped out in favour of scientific truth, i find it quite ironic that a Primarch with the appearance of an angel (the epitome of religion for many people) could be considered the image of 'perfection'. I'd like to add that i'm not trying to bash anyone's opinions here, i realise the above comment could be construed as an attack; it's not. I actually quite like the Blood Angels, both the vampiric and angelic aspects but they don't suit my playing style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Kezef Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 That he had the appearance of an angel only underlines his inner purity. In an age where religion was being wiped out in favour of scientific truth, i find it quite ironic that a Primarch with the appearance of an angel (the epitome of religion for many people) could be considered the image of 'perfection'. I'd like to add that i'm not trying to bash anyone's opinions here, i realise the above comment could be construed as an attack; it's not. I actually quite like the Blood Angels, both the vampiric and angelic aspects but they don't suit my playing style. The angelic theme is quite interesting in Human culture. While we most associate it with the 3 monotheistic faiths the concept of winged divine beings is extremely wide spread through many culture, including ones that preate Judaism. There is something in the Huma pysche that equates wings with the concept of goodness, purity and freedom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperors Immortals Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 This may just be me, but ive always linked the BA fluff to Vampire Mythos's (esp. Masquerade) and Dr.Faust. In my own chapter, im taking a much sronger FAustian turn, but i always thought that the twin thirsts for battle and art were some of the more essential "rennaisance" themes - and that it was a parallel with Fausts unquenchable thirst for knowledge neyond scripture.(in other words, the heights of a mans knowledge through his own contemplation as opposed to the heights of just what is given to you) - which is given in our fluff as a search for a way to stop the red thirst and black rage - which in itself is only obtainable through knowledge (hence the FT seearch for ancient sources in arcane areas.) Just a few thoughts ive had over the years, but definatly more complex than i can put in one small post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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