Purdy81 Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 So after reading both the standard codex, the new blood angels one, asking GW staff in Derby and Nottingham im still none the wiser so hopefully someone here can help, so here goes.. Im creating a DIY chapter and im a bit confused by the different codex's In the blood Angels Codex an assault squad can have 1 hand flamer or an infernus pistol per 5 marines, can i use these weapons in my d.i.y chapter and just use the standard codex as i would prefer to use this one. If the answer is a resounding no, can I use HQ choices from the standard codex if I base my force on the blood angels codex so i can have those weapon choices in assault? Basically Im wanting to use Vulkan He'stan as one of my HQ choices and get kitted out with flamers and meltas, hence wanting the hand flamers from the blood angels codex. any ideas? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223142-hand-flamers/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 You can not use units from one codex in another codex (outside of Apocalypse), and currently it is not possible to get hand flamers/infernus pistols in Codex space marines. You either have to use the Codex BA entirely or Codex Space Marines entirely. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223142-hand-flamers/#findComment-2668060 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acebaur Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 You can not use units from one codex in another codex (outside of Apocalypse), and currently it is not possible to get hand flamers/infernus pistols in Codex space marines. You either have to use the Codex BA entirely or Codex Space Marines entirely. Exactly. Just because they are all Space Marines doesn't mean you can pick and choose units an rules from multiple codices. Each codex is a stand alone army list and unless it specifically says otherwise(WH and DH) you can't do it. You wouldn't take a unit of Eldar Banshees as an elite choice in your Space Marine army would you? Same thing applies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223142-hand-flamers/#findComment-2668098 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purdy81 Posted February 22, 2011 Author Share Posted February 22, 2011 Yeah I get what your saying guys, just dont understand why the hand flamers and infernus pistols are not in the standard Codex Space Marines, guess i'll just have to take 2 handed flamers with my assault squads, with my chainsword strapped to his back somewhere and lose an attack in cc Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223142-hand-flamers/#findComment-2668108 Share on other sites More sharing options...
narf Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 you can always use the models, but follow the restictions in your own codex, its called counts as. Just because your marines have nifty polly in my pocket flamers that constantly need reloading, taking precious attention away from CC when its finally reached, is just the same as normal marines having the clunky big-ass flamers. At the end of the day use the normal flamer rules from codex space marines, and use the hand flamer models as your flamer guys if its how you like the look. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223142-hand-flamers/#findComment-2668193 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shatter Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Technically speaking it's not legal at all to use the wrong wargear on models no matter how similar. The only reference in C:BA to 'counts as' is on page 81 under 'Blood Angels and other chapters.' And even then, the only thing that's different is the name of a special character. His wargear is the same. What you mean is proxying. (@OP) But still, people will let it go in friendly games. So don't worry about it, as long as you explain what codex rules you're using and what any divergence from standard wargear appearance is supposed to represent. In a tourney, should you dig such things, you could get disqualified. However, most players that go to tourneys won't care about it if your army looks awesome and yuo explain everything carefully... but some tourney players are hyper-competitive jerks that will use whatever they can to secure a win, including ruining your day by pointing out that 'technically speaking' your army is not WYSIWYG which, quite simply is required 100% of the time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223142-hand-flamers/#findComment-2668358 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Back in 2nd Edition hand flamers were a basic Space Marine weapon, not specifically a weapon of the Blood Angels, so there is the chance that the next Codex Space Marines will also have them. It could be a few years until a new Codex is released, though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223142-hand-flamers/#findComment-2668375 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildfire Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 just dont understand why the hand flamers and infernus pistols are not in the standard Codex Space Marines Because their rules hadn't been invented when C:SM was written. C:BA is a year or two newer than C:SM. Back in 2nd Edition hand flamers were a basic Space Marine weapon, not specifically a weapon of the Blood Angels, so there is the chance that the next Codex Space Marines will also have them. It could be a few years until a new Codex is released, though. True, but with a different template. And how I miss the giant heavy flamer template. Back when multi-meltas did 2d12 wounds and had a 2" blast radius, and dreads could fire them as multi-meltas or heavy flamers as they wished! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223142-hand-flamers/#findComment-2668570 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arikel Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Technically speaking, a model with a hand flamer and a chainsword that is using the vanilla codex would be treated as having a bog standard flamer for rules, i.e, he does not get the bonus attack for having two ccw(you'll note that the flamer assault marine only loses his bp, not his chainsword). If you are using the blood angels codex, it would be used as a flamer pistol by their codex rules, which i assume allows the bonus attack because it's a pistol weapon. What you can't do is run vanilla marines and expect people to treat your hand flamers as flamer pistols, because by vanilla code rules we don't have flamer pistols. If someone gets so caught up in wysiwig that they can't understand what codex you are using, that's a different issue, and rather unsportsmanlike. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223142-hand-flamers/#findComment-2668573 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acebaur Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 I think if you wanted to run a model with twin hand flamers and call it a normal flamer that would be fine. I believe SoB does that exact thing so there shouldn't be too much trouble with it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223142-hand-flamers/#findComment-2668661 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Technically speaking it's not legal at all to use the wrong wargear on models no matter how similar. The only reference in C:BA to 'counts as' is on page 81 under 'Blood Angels and other chapters.' And even then, the only thing that's different is the name of a special character. His wargear is the same. What you mean is proxying. If its function is clear and it can't be mistaken for any other bit of wargear in your army, it's kosher. At least, I've yet to see a tournie judge who'd tell you those oddly cut-up bitty flamers don't count as flamers because they look like flamers from a different army. That said, I do run a Codex Astartes chapter with the BA codex. (Not hard as they are mostly CA...mostly.) I don't use Baal Preds, Sanguine Guard, or Death Company...and I refuse to stick a downed Librarian in a Dreadnought. (How crazy is that?) You can make a codex your own, you just can't pick and chose what you want from different codexes in the same army...not and expect everybody to play with you anyway. ;) Doing so brings you into custom-rules land. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223142-hand-flamers/#findComment-2669207 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purdy81 Posted February 23, 2011 Author Share Posted February 23, 2011 Technically speaking it's not legal at all to use the wrong wargear on models no matter how similar. The only reference in C:BA to 'counts as' is on page 81 under 'Blood Angels and other chapters.' And even then, the only thing that's different is the name of a special character. His wargear is the same. What you mean is proxying. If its function is clear and it can't be mistaken for any other bit of wargear in your army, it's kosher. At least, I've yet to see a tournie judge who'd tell you those oddly cut-up bitty flamers don't count as flamers because they look like flamers from a different army. That said, I do run a Codex Astartes chapter with the BA codex. (Not hard as they are mostly CA...mostly.) I don't use Baal Preds, Sanguine Guard, or Death Company...and I refuse to stick a downed Librarian in a Dreadnought. (How crazy is that?) You can make a codex your own, you just can't pick and chose what you want from different codexes in the same army...not and expect everybody to play with you anyway. ;) Doing so brings you into custom-rules land. I know, I dont want to use BA rules or army composition, I just want the bloody hand flamers for my assault squad as they can be used in cc Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223142-hand-flamers/#findComment-2669220 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 I know, I dont want to use BA rules or army composition, I just want the bloody hand flamers for my assault squad as they can be used in cc Yea, that is a trade off with the vanilla assault squads; the flamer replaces the bolt pistol, so they both lose the pistol (have to fire the flamer, if at all) and don't have a bonus attack in CC. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223142-hand-flamers/#findComment-2669276 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Black Shadow Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 [edit] If you are playing in an official tournament or against some random rules lawyer at the game store, then no, you can't take hand flamers and infernus pistols in 5th edition codex marines. If you are playing a game with your friends or other people playing a game to have fun, you can equip your marines with lollipop guns and fuzzy bunny catapults if your opponent agrees to it. And @ wildfire, hand flamers and melta pistols were available to space marines as early as rogue trader/1st ed, you're right. I actually have a pewter beakie marine with a hand flamer. They were a bog standard marine wargear choice, right up there with melta missiles and heavy webbers. I miss the days of having a stack of cut-out blast/flamer templates and being able to make my own hero character using point-buy. :tu: ++ Edited out non board-compliant comment ++ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223142-hand-flamers/#findComment-2669310 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shatter Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Guys this is the Official Rules thread. Stop talking rubbish. If the OP wants to use hand flamers to represent flamers he can as long as he accepts it's under the tolerance of his opponents and some tourney opponents are complete jerks who simply wont. Rare, but quite possible. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223142-hand-flamers/#findComment-2669468 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chengar Qordath Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 I think if you wanted to run a model with twin hand flamers and call it a normal flamer that would be fine. I believe SoB does that exact thing so there shouldn't be too much trouble with it. Not exactly the same thing, since their codex does specifically say they can take a pair of hand flamers that fire as a regular flamer. The Marine Codex doesn't say anything like that. Important difference when it comes to playing RAW/strict WYSIWYG. Of course, as a modeling options it works fine, so long as the in-game rules are followed. That said, I'm a bit wary of proxying hand flamers for normal flamers, just because it is the sort of thing that could lead to confusion if players are not very clear with each other, and leaves the door open for exploits in the hands of an unscrupulous player. Of course, when it comes to fluff the non-BA marines really ought to have access to hand flamers and inferno pistols too... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223142-hand-flamers/#findComment-2669483 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Black Shadow Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Guys this is the Official Rules thread. Stop talking rubbish. The most important rule is that the rules aren't all that important! So long as both players agree, you can treat them as sacrosanct or mere guidelines - the choice is entirely yours. Admittedly, I placed my own strong personal bias in how I stated this above. and sincerely apologize if it rubbed someone the wrong way. But I stand by it as an official rule, as valid as the rest. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223142-hand-flamers/#findComment-2669569 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shatter Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 We tend to ignore that statement here (in OR). It never solves problems. I wasn't rubbed the wrong way. I was concerned that a posting trend was appearing saying it, non WYSIWYG, was fine... in the OR forum. Someone might get the wrong idea. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223142-hand-flamers/#findComment-2669659 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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