Lone Scout Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Maybe the Emperor is making Merp into a demon? Perhaps the Emperor really IS a god? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223166-just-curious/page/2/#findComment-2668892 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOBMAKENZIE Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Maybe the Emperor is making Merp into a demon? Perhaps the Emperor really IS a god? So Mephiston is a living saint? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223166-just-curious/page/2/#findComment-2668961 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stunami Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Maybe the Emperor is making Merp into a demon? Perhaps the Emperor really IS a god? So Mephiston is a living saint? :no: He's going to need those little cherubs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223166-just-curious/page/2/#findComment-2669048 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamwulf Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Why couldn't GW just have built on the previous fluff? Advanced it a little? There are all kinds of ways they could have explained the current codex: "The Blood Angels liberated the lost Forge World of "Fiftheditioncodex" complete with the STC Land Raider, giving them ready access to this mighty machine of war. An old STC was also rediscovered- the Stormraven. Fast, maneuverable, smaller then a Thunderhawk, the Blood Angels readily adapted their combat doctrine to this ancient flyer..." "The Red Thirst and Black Rage is reaching a crisis point within the Blood Angel ranks. Chapter Master Dante, in an effort to head it off, rose Astrorath to a new position within the Blood Angel's Hierarchy: High Chaplain and Redeemer of the Lost. His mission: Travel throughout the Imperium in the fastest ship, searching for a cure, and dispatching those too far gone into the Black Rage..." "With the Black Rage engulfing more and more of the Blood Angels, rare units of the Blood Angels reserves have been brought forward to keep the combat strength of the Chapter at full efficiency. Wearing baroque, golden armor and wings attached to their jump packs, armed with powerful Glaives and Angelus pattern Bolters, the Sanguinary Guard epitomize the Blood Angels assault doctrine. Led by a powerful, yet mysterious figure known only as the Sanguinor, said to carry a part of the Primarch's Geneseed within, these Angels of Death descend from the sky, savaging the foes of the Blood Angels." "Chaplain Lemartes, once held as the Chaplain able to hold the Black Rage at bay, has finally succumbed fully to the Curse. Unable to function within the Command Hierarchy, Lemartes has been given a place of honor within the Death Company..." "Some powerful Librarians are sometimes so wounded in battle, they are unable to continue the fight. These mighty Librarians are offered the choice- embrace the walking tomb of a Blood Angels Dreadnought and continue to aid the chapter, or be dispatched by Astrorath himself, as befitting their rank. Some choose the sarcophagus of a Dreadnought. Incredibly rare amongst the Space Marines, only the Blood Angels seem to have any significant numbers, probably due to the high number of psychers within the Chapter. While other Space Marine Chapters utilize their entombed Librarians as living repositories of information, Commander Dante has been forced to call these Librarians to the forefront of battle." There. I just explained all the new units within the BA Codex in a way that builds on the prior fluff and shows that a Space Marine Chapter can and will adapt it's combat doctrine within the confines of the Codex Astrates. Who is to say that there are not whole chapters within the Codex Astrates describing the strategy and tactics of lost warmachines, such as the Stormraven? Or even Fellblades? Anything that will add to the assault ability of the Blood Angels would readily be embraced and welcomed. I've also hinted that the Red Thurst and Black Rage is getting worse, forcing the BA's to call up the reserves to maintain their combat efficiency. New positions within the Command Hierarchy have had to be created. Now more then ever, Dante must find a cure, or watch his entire Chapter succumb to the Curse. Why couldn't GW have gone this route? Why must they butcher the old fluff, rewrite history, and create a new army with new characteristics? Why can't they just build on the rich history that has already been written? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223166-just-curious/page/2/#findComment-2669129 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashrog Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 I'm pretty sure a lot of people hated the "Sanguinor is so awesome, he bodyslammed a Bloodthirster from orbit" thing. Personally I loved it! Oh, and for anyone who complains that they looked better with black edging on the pads? Personally, I prefer the original: :P http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/AshRogers/17058_md-ArtworkCopyrightGamesWorkshopRogueTraderSpaceMarines.jpg Nope, no black edging there. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223166-just-curious/page/2/#findComment-2669185 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOBMAKENZIE Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 I think I love you Tamwulf... ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223166-just-curious/page/2/#findComment-2669214 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 I think I love you Tamwulf... ;) I nominate Tamwulf's post be declared an official retcon to the current BA fluff. It would have been so much easier to have Lemartes finally fall to the curse and Astorath get promoted as his replacement Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223166-just-curious/page/2/#findComment-2669235 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nathan Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 sure those angels didnt have trim, but if you look closely youll notice none in the picture actually did... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223166-just-curious/page/2/#findComment-2669402 Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelOfDeathXIII Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Yah for Brother Tamwulf for thinking up GOOD fluff for the new units! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223166-just-curious/page/2/#findComment-2669455 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Chris Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Hey, I love Tamwulf too (As a brother...) We still sleep in sarcophagi (p12) and we still have sharp eye-teeth and sleekly beautiful faetures (p11) from the more obviously vampire days. I would personally be very happy for ongoing developing fluff, but lazy ignoring of fluff annoys me. I would be very happy to have Captain Lazarus of the 2nd company die in the Dalaric Campaigns and be succeeded by Aphael, Lemartes get demoted for madness, as Tamwulf suggests. I am not happy to see Lazarus go just because Matt Ward couldn't be bothered to read 'How to paint space Marines' (worse) deliberately decide he didn't like Lazarus as a bit too 'Vampire' (coming back from the dead) and wanted something a bit more Angel (its Raphael with the R, geddit). Doesn't help tha the only Italians Matt has heard of are Dante, Machiavelli and the Borgias, so the Italianate nature of the BAs is watered down in favour of cod 'Angelic' names ending in -on and -ael. I hadn't noticed that the Landraiders (we could have 17 of them in a standard FOC, depending on the points limit) we 'use Thunderhawk transporters to drop them directly into the heart of battle' ,are in fact dropped by only3 vehicles. If Dante is such a brilliant tactician, why doesn't he swap some with other chapters. 43 Landraiders. What nonsense! On the DC, fluffwise I'm sure they were always pretty uncontrollable. I think the game gave a control mechanism to make up for them being compulsory but seriously do Chaplains look like they could calm down death crazed madmen? Much better to keep them chained up in an enclosed Rhino prior to delivery, as in the new codex. And we aren't really people who spend all our time whinging about minor fluff changes. The Op just asked for the sort of reasons for the background noise he was hearing, which I think this thread explains very well. Sanguinor and Astorath will never be welcome in my games, nor will my Veteran assault squad be changing their helmet colours or pauldron trims any time soon. And I've just made a new Captain Lazarus of my 2nd Company from the new sets... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223166-just-curious/page/2/#findComment-2669550 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Scout Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Yah for Brother Tamwulf for thinking up GOOD fluff for the new units! Yes nice work ! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223166-just-curious/page/2/#findComment-2669605 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hengist Ironfang Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 The 3 thunderhawk transporters makes me laugh too, these things can only transport 1 land raider or 2 rhino variants, as far as i know the thunderhawk transporters are the chapters only method of getting vehicles on the ground, now unless there is some kind of astartes bulk lander we dont know about then our favourite rapid assault surgical tool, speartip marines are gonna be operating without any heavy support for most of the time. or they have to wait for several hours while the single thunderhawk transporter that may have got assigned to their company if they were lucky flies back and forth from strike cruiser to drop point ferrying all the rhino's razorbacks preds and land raiders needed to prosecute a war. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223166-just-curious/page/2/#findComment-2669643 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Losfer Werds Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 Yah for Brother Tamwulf for thinking up GOOD fluff for the new units! Indeed, would have been a little better if GW used that kind of reasoning instead of just putting a "slap-dash" new dex out there like they were saying "It was like this the whole time...really". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223166-just-curious/page/2/#findComment-2669648 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapter Master Ignis Domus Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 I always wonder why people like Tamwulf don't work for GW... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223166-just-curious/page/2/#findComment-2669675 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 Hardly any of those 'explanations' were even a fraction as interesting as the current backgrounds for the new units. Sanguinary Guard are a brilliant unit full of history and a fantastic addition. Lemartes new back story is really well done. Astorath is entirely plausible, because the number of Death Company who don't die in battle is pretty darn small. The only thing I had a problem with, as was mentioned elsewhere, was the hints at Mephiston being possessed and the BA working with Necrons. Oh and the complete lack of any relevant fluff on the successors. There should have been 2 pages each on the 5 2nd founding Chapters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223166-just-curious/page/2/#findComment-2669746 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shatter Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 I don't think Mephiston is feeling possessed as such, more like he got a bunch of carefully tailored truth that the Primarchs are infused with stuff of the warp... and now so is he... just like the daemon that told him. The parallel evokes far too many questions that shake his understanding of Good versus Evil, Man vs Chaos. And, he's all alone with this information. The mortals around him have no idea and if they did... what would they do? What if the Imperium at large knew? I have no problem at all with anything in the codex. Even the necron thing is fine as far as I'm concerned, for I too would have used them and allowed them to use me to eliminate the chance of tyranid hives (or ork spores) dominating the system. Necrons tend to stay put... and were already there: Another day's business. Seriously, who are you guys to criticize Dante? ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223166-just-curious/page/2/#findComment-2669848 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamwulf Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 Hardly any of those 'explanations' were even a fraction as interesting as the current backgrounds for the new units. Sanguinary Guard are a brilliant unit full of history and a fantastic addition. Lemartes new back story is really well done. Astorath is entirely plausible, because the number of Death Company who don't die in battle is pretty darn small. The only thing I had a problem with, as was mentioned elsewhere, was the hints at Mephiston being possessed and the BA working with Necrons. Oh and the complete lack of any relevant fluff on the successors. There should have been 2 pages each on the 5 2nd founding Chapters. Here's the deal though: Sanguinary Guard, Astrorath, The Sanguinor, and Stormravens have never been mentioned or even hinted at in over 20 years of 40K fluff. My original question still stands: Why couldn't GW come up with some kind of plausible explanation for these new units and tie them into the current background and storyline of the Blood Angels? Instead of advancing the story behind the Blood Angels just a fraction, GW rewrote over 20 years of Blood Angels fluff, and frankly, it's a travesty and hack job. Lemartes new back story? Sure. GW wants us to believe that Astorath has been around for a long time and is the top dog of the Chaplains. That's kinda funny, before this Codex, that post was held by Lemartes. Ya know, with a couple little tweaks, instead of Astorath, we could have had a new Lemartes, fresh from his own personal battle with the Black Rage. Nope. GW hired a hack writer to re-write all the fluff. I have no beef with the Sanguinary Guard. I think it's a great looking unit, and has it's place on the table. What I don't like is again, GW saying "Oh, they were right there with the Emperor and Sanguinius; they were his body guards... really? That's the best they can come up with? Especially when the fluff up to now stated it was the Emperor and Sanguinius who stormed aboard Horus' ship, and it was Sanguinius that took a fatal blow from Horus protecting the Emperor. Again, GW could have easily went along the lines of Dante trying to preserve the best of the Blood Angels and creating the Sanguinary Guard. BAM! Problem solved, continuity preserved, no re-write of 40K history required. This leads me to The Sanguinar... W.T. I'm not even gonna start on this one. The explanation I offered for the Stormraven opened up the possibility of other chapters gaining access later on through, say a White Dwarf article. "Since the liberation of Fiftheditioncodex and the STC Stormraven, the Blood Angels have shared this knowledge with other Space Marine chapters in the hope of dispelling the rumors of his Chapter's decline into madness..." Yet, again, GW has rewritten over 20 years of 40K history by saying that the Blood Angels had them the whole time! Really? And no other Space Marine Chapter has felt compelled to copy it? Later this year, if/when GW releases the Stormraven to all the other Space Marine Chapters, what will they say then? "Oh, hey! The <insert Chapter name here> had Stormravens all along! LOL". I agree whole heartedly the assessment of Mephiston and the whole Necron thing. IMHO, GW did a great job with the new units rule-wise, but they just hacked the continuity all to heck! The reason why you didn't get 10 pages of fluff on the Blood Angel successor chapters is because of all the space dedicated to the new units. It's probably for the better anyways. There is no telling how badly the Flesh Tearer's or the Angel's Encarmine fluff would have been screwed up. GW really, really needs to hire a Continuity Editor. We wouldn't be seeing so many broad re-writes and just plain bad fluff coming out in each Codex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223166-just-curious/page/2/#findComment-2669866 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Captain Devlonir Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 For some, Tamwulf is a hero.. or a brother. For others, he is someone with a love for old fluff with a deep hatred of retcons. For me, all the explainations you give are less strong then the ones GW give, despite how you try to mock them. You show a lack of knowledge in fluff when you think it was just Sanguinius and the Emperor himself in the Space Hulk fighting Horus. First of all; Dol Dorn was there as well. Secondly, for the personal bodyguard to come along is not only logical but was actually also older fluff. The Primarchs were awesome, but 2 and the Emperor together could not hold off the forces of Chaos by themselves.. Especially if they got split up (which they did) And re-Stormraven: It IS actually written that the Blood Angels got access to it recently with the blessing of the AdMech. Which is actually more iffy fluff than anything else written in the book when you consider the animosity between the two over the Baal Engines. So seriously.. it's the new fluff.. Accept it! We do not own the story, Games Workshop does. And if you don't like the changes it is your own problem and not theirs. They will not simply change it back again or follow your 'better' idea. Which frankly had one major problem: It would force the game to be called Warhammer 41k because the current time is the last year(s) of the millenium for quite some time now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223166-just-curious/page/2/#findComment-2669995 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Kezef Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 Am I the only one who likes the SG fluff? Bear in mind the SG is supported by the HH series as they made an appearence (albeit briefly) in A Thousand Sons just before the council of Nikea kicked off. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223166-just-curious/page/2/#findComment-2670018 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gv0zD Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 Here's the deal though: Sanguinary Guard, Astrorath, The Sanguinor, and Stormravens have never been mentioned or even hinted at in over 20 years of 40K fluff. My original question still stands: Why couldn't GW come up with some kind of plausible explanation for these new units and tie them into the current background and storyline of the Blood Angels? Instead of advancing the story behind the Blood Angels just a fraction, GW rewrote over 20 years of Blood Angels fluff, and frankly, it's a travesty and hack job. Lemartes new back story? Sure. GW wants us to believe that Astorath has been around for a long time and is the top dog of the Chaplains. That's kinda funny, before this Codex, that post was held by Lemartes. Ya know, with a couple little tweaks, instead of Astorath, we could have had a new Lemartes, fresh from his own personal battle with the Black Rage. Nope. GW hired a hack writer to re-write all the fluff. I have no beef with the Sanguinary Guard. I think it's a great looking unit, and has it's place on the table. What I don't like is again, GW saying "Oh, they were right there with the Emperor and Sanguinius; they were his body guards... really? That's the best they can come up with? Especially when the fluff up to now stated it was the Emperor and Sanguinius who stormed aboard Horus' ship, and it was Sanguinius that took a fatal blow from Horus protecting the Emperor. Again, GW could have easily went along the lines of Dante trying to preserve the best of the Blood Angels and creating the Sanguinary Guard. BAM! Problem solved, continuity preserved, no re-write of 40K history required. This leads me to The Sanguinar... W.T.F I'm not even gonna start on this one. What's so bad in adding a new unit and it's background. The primarch's bodyguard - it's pretty logical IMHO. Sanguinor - the BA analog of the Bretonnian Green Knight - he's also a good addition. A chapter's guardian angel, what's so bad about him? The ancient hero, who appear only on special occasions to aid his fellow brothers. IMHO it's better than if he was some sort of "chapter's champion who suddenly obtained the near-primarch powers or whatever that makes him so strong". Overall, the re-writing of some fluff is not a bad thing. Well, yeah, the old fluff was more brutal and hardcore (however I would say the same about the new fluff as well), but that's the evolution of the universe. GW thought it would be better to change the fluff, so why not? It's better than having the same old fluff and units, no matter how good they are. @ Brother-Captain Devlonir: I fully support you regarding the SG. BTW, Horus could have killed them before he clashed with Sanguinius. Hell, he could do it in one blow. And the fluff doesn't have to describe the exact quantity of the BA who accompanied Sanguinius and Dorn and Emperor on Venegeful Spirit. That part described the final battle between primarchs. The SG's entry in Codex, on the other hand, pays more attention to Sanguinius' body guard. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223166-just-curious/page/2/#findComment-2670028 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 sure those angels didnt have trim, but if you look closely youll notice none in the picture actually did... That's cos they have the old Mark V(?) armour which didn't have trim on the shoulders at all. Note the Dark Angel, back when they were the proper colour before all this green sh...nonsense. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223166-just-curious/page/2/#findComment-2670032 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nathan Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 i like the sang guard... though wsnt it only terminators that went onto the battle barge originally with emperor and sangy? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223166-just-curious/page/2/#findComment-2670134 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOBMAKENZIE Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 sure those angels didnt have trim, but if you look closely youll notice none in the picture actually did... That's cos they have the old Mark V(?) armour which didn't have trim on the shoulders at all. Note the Dark Angel, back when they were the proper colour before all this green sh...nonsense. I really like the Flesh Tearers in that picture <3 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223166-just-curious/page/2/#findComment-2670169 Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelOfDeathXIII Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 I do like the Sanguinary Guard.. But even though I only started playing at 5th Edition (unlike many Veterans here) I do think that the new fluff has some fatal flaws... Especially the Sanguinor and Astorath. (Though I really enjoyed the Blood on Zaprax story in the codex) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223166-just-curious/page/2/#findComment-2670170 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nathan Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 agreed, nice story. i think i would like the sanguinator more if he does turn out to be azkellon, and that he has some teleportation tech built in. astros fluff is a waste ofspace but i really like his rules and his model aint bad. thats why hes my chaptermaster... ^_^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223166-just-curious/page/2/#findComment-2670176 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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