maturin Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Hi folks, I'm trying out a new list this year, with one of the key units being an 8-man Sternguard squad led by a librarian. I'm planning on having them Gate around the battlefield, as I have 2 locator beacons in the rest of the 1500 point force. Now, I don't want to make him an Epistolary until I reach 1700+ points, so I'm left with choosing a second power for him strictly as "backup", presumably for use when the unit gets shot at or charged. As I have *zero* experience using a libbie, I'd like to solicit your expert advice, keeping in mind that most of the time he'll just have used his one power/turn to deliver the Sternguard exactly where they need to be. Force Dome for the invul. save? But 5+ seems underwhelming on terminators - I assume the same would apply here. Might or Quickening for use when the unit gets charged, as I presume it will? Might seems handy to use but I'm not sure if he'll live that long - thus maybe Quickening is better? I'll take Vortex when he's an Epistolary as I just want to chuck around a S10 AP1 blast for fun. :tu: The rest of the army consists of scout bikers (one locator), a drop pod MM dread (other locator), triple-melta storm/scouts, tac squad/rhino, combi-pred, and some other stuff. The Sternguard have combis and a PF. I'm looking forward to your opinions and experiences! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Vortex doesn't mix well with Gate unless the Librarian has TDA on; it's a Heavy power so he can't fire it after a Deepstrike unless he's Relentless. Avenger isn't a bad power to take at all; Smite even fits the bill even if it is a little lackluster. Something else you might consider is an assault-based power (MotA or Quickening) as the Sternguard is excellent at shooting but only good (not great) in an assault. If they get rushed, the Librarian packing some punch could be very helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pingo Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Avenger can be pretty awesome if you're coming in in a drop pod. You can flame a lot of troublesome gribblies in turn one. Gate is in itself a good power for a squad in a drop pod as there's less risk of them being stranded a long way from the action if the fighting moves elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 I'd suggest either Avenger or Null Zone. Both of these can be used if you feel like sticking in one place for a turn. Null Zone will screw around with those valuable units that rely on invulnerable saves, like Terminators and Seer Councils. Or the Avenger would be handy for boosting the shooting power of the Sternguard. Furthermore, neither of these choices will be affected by upgrading to Epistolary. Vortex, while sounding cool, is very bad for this style of Libby for the same reasons that thade has outlined. You need TDA to use it properly, and with Epistolary you're looking at just under 200pts for a 2 wound character. I'd personally stick with him standard, using just the one power a turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 I'd suggest either Avenger or Null Zone. Why type it when someone has already done the work for you!?!?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maturin Posted February 23, 2011 Author Share Posted February 23, 2011 Thanks for the replies - I hadn't realized the problem with Vortex. Oh well - maybe for a "fun" game sometime. Avenger sounds nice, but since the Sternguard can unleash AP3 goodness pretty darn well already, I'm wondering if the opportunity cost is too high. Plus, I'm not sure if sticking around for a turn is a good idea or possible. I expect to gate into position and rapid fire. My opponent will then either charge in his turn, or fall back - who is going to stick around and just take Sternguard firepower? Either way I find myself in combat or gating again the next turn... Null zone sounds more like a contender - but if facing termies I'd rely more on forcing 2+ saves (hellfire rounds!) than going for AP2 (only 2 combiplasmas + 2 combimeltas). Is the chance that I'll face termies and or seer council high enough to justify forgoing a CC power? I expect the sternguard to get charged every game, unless I face Tau or Guard. Those of you with Sternguard squads - how long do they stay unengaged in CC, do you find? Does anyone have experience with Might and Quickening? I'd like to know if they're better than the shooty powers in this situation, and of those two which would be better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meatman Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Another problem with taking vortex for this role. It's a 12" range. Plus if you fail your ld test, you still place the template... But over the librarian, and your sternguard are nicely bunched around him... Can't go wrong with nullzone, although avenger is nice to mesh with vengeance rounds or dragonfire bolts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueThumb Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 I think a Libby can use Gate of Infinity even while tied up in close combat.. Or it seems that he should. Nothing in the rule book says that units in close combat skip their movement phase, just that they can't move. If that is the case, your unit of Sterngard and the Libby could use Gate of Infinity to get out of combat and do a lot of shooting. As far as Might and Quickening go - Might seems to give you better odds of killing stuff, while Quickening could let you kill stuff before they can hit your Sterngard. The catch with Quickening is that your roll to wound versus MEQ isn't as good as what Might gives you, so your "to wound" rolls need to be 4+ instead of 2+. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 I'd suggest either Avenger or Null Zone. Why type it when someone has already done the work for you!?!?! Why type this when you're not going to add any constructive to the conversation at hand? No one else had mentioned Null Zone, which is one of our, if not the best psychic power in our Codex, and a contender for one of the best psychic powers full stop. Sure in this instance it competes with Gate for primary power, but it's not a bad secondary power to have. About Avenger, true thade and pingo had mentioned it. Maybe I should have just typed Null Zone? But I don't know about you, but if I were to ask a question about something, I would be more reassured about one option if I had it recommended by many people, instead of one. In that instance I can then see how many people have had good experiences with said power and what it's limits and strengths are. If many people expand on their point, one can draw those strengths and weaknesses together and make their own informed decision. Therefore, I try to always expand on my suggestions with reason why I use it and feel it is good. IMO, many people agreeing that something is good is as good as people disagreeing and giving reasoned discussion and debates as to why it is not good. @BlueThumb: Gate in combat is debatable, and it is best to discuss it with your opponent beforehand if you're planning on using it as such. In my store I think the staff are leaning towards allowing its use as they can't think of a reason why not. I'm still unsure of my own conviction on that rule, and so therefore Avenger is stuck as my paired power alongside Null Zone. If they FAQed it, I would be far more likely to use it in my own games, but I don't want arguments mid game. I'd also say to be careful with combat powers. You really do need to use Might if you're using Quickening, but not the other way around. However, you may then need to upgrade to Epistolary, and once you get a decent invulnerable save thanks to Terminator armour you might as well have shelled out for a Captain. Libbys aren't supposed to be good in combat, leave them to do what they're best at, supporting your other units. I'd rather have one Libby in a Rhino using Null Zone than one Libby in combat with Might of Heroes. But that's just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 I'd suggest either Avenger or Null Zone. Why type it when someone has already done the work for you!?!?! Why type this when you're not going to add any constructive to the conversation at hand? No one else had mentioned Null Zone, which is one of our, if not the best psychic power in our Codex, and a contender for one of the best psychic powers full stop. Sure in this instance it competes with Gate for primary power, but it's not a bad secondary power to have. About Avenger, true thade and pingo had mentioned it. Maybe I should have just typed Null Zone? But I don't know about you, but if I were to ask a question about something, I would be more reassured about one option if I had it recommended by many people, instead of one. In that instance I can then see how many people have had good experiences with said power and what it's limits and strengths are. If many people expand on their point, one can draw those strengths and weaknesses together and make their own informed decision. Therefore, I try to always expand on my suggestions with reason why I use it and feel it is good. IMO, many people agreeing that something is good is as good as people disagreeing and giving reasoned discussion and debates as to why it is not good. You make me laugh lesser mortal! I was actually agreeing with you and stating why type it when I can just quote you. Ho ho ho bring solo and the wookiee to me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meatman Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 I'd suggest either Avenger or Null Zone. Why type it when someone has already done the work for you!?!?! Why type this when you're not going to add any constructive to the conversation at hand? No one else had mentioned Null Zone, which is one of our, if not the best psychic power in our Codex, and a contender for one of the best psychic powers full stop. Sure in this instance it competes with Gate for primary power, but it's not a bad secondary power to have. About Avenger, true thade and pingo had mentioned it. Maybe I should have just typed Null Zone? But I don't know about you, but if I were to ask a question about something, I would be more reassured about one option if I had it recommended by many people, instead of one. In that instance I can then see how many people have had good experiences with said power and what it's limits and strengths are. If many people expand on their point, one can draw those strengths and weaknesses together and make their own informed decision. Therefore, I try to always expand on my suggestions with reason why I use it and feel it is good. IMO, many people agreeing that something is good is as good as people disagreeing and giving reasoned discussion and debates as to why it is not good. You make me laugh lesser mortal! I was actually agreeing with you and stating why type it when I can just quote you. Ho ho ho bring solo and the wookiee to me! This is the internet and as such, it is easy to be misinterpreted. Just try to be a little clearer next time :D I for one, had no idea what you were on about! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 hang on fellas, there cant be a disagreement on the boards unless im involved :lol: the problem i see wtih avenger is that you place the sternguard around the libby (is this right) so you may not get to fire it.. id agree that null zone is the way to go.. teamed with the AP3 bolter shots it can be devestating Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meatman Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 Only problem with nullzone for the AP3 is that not a lot of models have a 3+ save and an invul. It's more a 2+ save, and an invul. Makes nullzone more often then not, wasted. You don't have to put the librarian down first. The rules simply say that he and the unit he is with, are removed from the table and immediately placed back using the deepstrike rules. No mention of having to place the libby first. I mean, it makes sense to, but you don't have to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 I'd suggest either Avenger or Null Zone. Why type it when someone has already done the work for you!?!?! Why type this when you're not going to add any constructive to the conversation at hand? No one else had mentioned Null Zone, which is one of our, if not the best psychic power in our Codex, and a contender for one of the best psychic powers full stop. Sure in this instance it competes with Gate for primary power, but it's not a bad secondary power to have. About Avenger, true thade and pingo had mentioned it. Maybe I should have just typed Null Zone? But I don't know about you, but if I were to ask a question about something, I would be more reassured about one option if I had it recommended by many people, instead of one. In that instance I can then see how many people have had good experiences with said power and what it's limits and strengths are. If many people expand on their point, one can draw those strengths and weaknesses together and make their own informed decision. Therefore, I try to always expand on my suggestions with reason why I use it and feel it is good. IMO, many people agreeing that something is good is as good as people disagreeing and giving reasoned discussion and debates as to why it is not good. You make me laugh lesser mortal! I was actually agreeing with you and stating why type it when I can just quote you. Ho ho ho bring solo and the wookiee to me! O ok, sorry, I did misinterprete you Hellios. I blame tiredness, it was quite late when I read the text. Sorry about that, have a cookie ;). EDIT: @Meatman - hmmm, Thousand Sons.... But I agree with you. However, Seer Councils don't even have an armour save IIRC, and neither do most Daemons. Furthermore, it's handy for boosting the rest of your army. If you use Avenger your one unit is affecting one unit (maybe two). If you use Null Zone, multiple units in your army are affecting multiple units in your opponent's army. One of my favourite things to do is sit in a Rhino casting Null Zone all day long. Unfortunately this doesn't apply here, but I can say Libbys live longer in Rhinos :). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bartali Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 Only problem with nullzone for the AP3 is that not a lot of models have a 3+ save and an invul. It's more a 2+ save, and an invul. Makes nullzone more often then not, wasted. Nullzone doesn't just work for the Sternguard, it works for the rest of the list too ;). Can't go wrong with Null Zone, Avenger or Vortex; just depends on the rest of your list. Las/Plas Razorbacks or TH/SS Terminators - Null Zone No flamers in the list - Avenger Lacking in some AP1 anti-tank ? - Vortex etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagicMan Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 Only problem with nullzone for the AP3 is that not a lot of models have a 3+ save and an invul. It's more a 2+ save, and an invul. Makes nullzone more often then not, wasted. 5 Point combi-plasmas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 It is true that you can Gate out of an assault, but it might get you some weird looks from people who don't call the B&C OR board their home. Besides, why on earth would you run away? Smite them in the name of the Emperor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 It is true that you can Gate out of an assault, but it might get you some weird looks from people who don't call the B&C OR board their home. Besides, why on earth would you run away? Smite them in the name of the Emperor. This, exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maturin Posted February 24, 2011 Author Share Posted February 24, 2011 This is why I love the B&C. Lots of sage advice & analysis, plus encouragement to smack my opponent around. :D I hadn't thought about Null Zone being an AoE power - that's actually quite nice, and I have a fair amount of AP1 and AP2 weapons in my list to take advantage of it. Since the CC powers seem to work better with an epistolary, I think I've made my decision - Null Zone it is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 This is why I love the B&C. Lots of sage advice & analysis, plus encouragement to smack my opponent around. :D I hadn't thought about Null Zone being an AoE power - that's actually quite nice, and I have a fair amount of AP1 and AP2 weapons in my list to take advantage of it. Since the CC powers seem to work better with an epistolary, I think I've made my decision - Null Zone it is! You won't regret it. I was using Null Zone to full effect. In a massive game (because it's half term), it helped bring down the Nightbringer, Wraiths, and Necron Lords. In my Doubles game after that it was pivotal in landing the killing blow on a Daemon Prince, killing Oblits, killing Terminators, and killing Thousand Sons. In my single player 1500pts army I feel it pair up well with my Vindicators. My other units carry things like flamers and meltas, but those Vindys can wipe out entire squads of Terminators if they hit dead on while I have Null Zone up. It will make your Libby hated and feared, but then that's what we want isn't it? :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan249 Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 I'm surprised at all the hate Vortex of Doom is getting. I really don't think there's any problem with this power (in fact, I think this power's quite splendid). In fact, I wouldn't hesitate in taking Vortex of Doom on my Librarian, especially when he has the Epistolary upgrade. Think about this. There's a 2.7% chance of you rolling double sixes and annihilating yourself. In return for this risk, you gain a very powerful piece of ordnance to throw around, which will screw anything other then TH/SS Terminators over. Couple this with a devastating Sternguard rapidfire, and I think the risk is justified by the insanely high gain in destructive power. That being said, unless you're in TDA and have a storm shield, when you do fail, you will fail hard. That's why I always advocate TDA w/ a storm shield, just so he has a good chance at living long enough to utilize his powers effectively. In your context, I think all you really need is some sort of offensive power. Gate is your anti-close combat device. I would suggest either Vortex or Null Zone as your secondary powers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meatman Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 Well you need to be in TDA to move and use it anyway. So that jumps his points up before you get epistolary. It's also when he fails his leadership it is placed over him. Not just double 6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan249 Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Oops, party foul. Ok, so it's closer to 5%. Doesn't change the fact that it's a minor risk for major returns, with the exception of Eldar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maturin Posted February 27, 2011 Author Share Posted February 27, 2011 Unfortunately the fact that Vortex is a heavy 1 power really limits its usefulness in this particular unit, which I expect to be either on the move each turn, or locked in CC. And giving up 75+ points in 1500 is tough to swallow, just for Epis + TDA. I'm definitely aching to try it out on another list - maybe one where my libby sits with a tac on an objective and dares my opponent to come get him. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan249 Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Unfortunately the fact that Vortex is a heavy 1 power really limits its usefulness in this particular unit, which I expect to be either on the move each turn, or locked in CC. And giving up 75+ points in 1500 is tough to swallow, just for Epis + TDA. I'm definitely aching to try it out on another list - maybe one where my libby sits with a tac on an objective and dares my opponent to come get him. :( Putting the librarian in TDA doesn't break the bank, and it fits in drop pods and land raiders. In any case, do what you wish. You can always change powers out and use whatever you wish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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