Using Scouts

[BloodWulf]

Hey all, in sticking with the Carcharodons fluff as much as possible, I am trying to make the most of Space Marine Scouts. I know they are subpar compared to a full Battle Brother but I have to think there is some merit to them. I will list the individual scout units in hopes that you fine tactitians and mathletes can show me the best usages for the units. Let it be known that my usual opponents are MEQs and Marines.

 

Scout Snipers are pretty easy to find the usefulness for. They seem tailor made to add Sgt Telion and a ML too, but do you keep them at 5 or bump them to 10?

 

Scouts - do you give them bolters or shot guns or a mix? HB? or keep them BP CCW? How do you kit them if you plan to use them in a Landspeeder Storm? I would like to throw in a LSS into my army as I dont see them around my area often.

 

Scout Bikes? Worth it? whats the load out? 2x Bolter 1x AGL?

 

anything I am missing?

[thade]

Scout Bikes are awesome. They can infiltrate and get a 3+ cover save with their scout move no matter who has the first turn. They've got a Locator Beacon so jump infantry, drop pods, and terminators can land right where they need to while the scout bikes set up position for them. Astartes Grenade Launchers are pretty cool too. :P

[greatcrusade08]

Let it be known that my usual opponents are MEQs and Marines.

C:SM or SW/BA, the former is pretty easy the latter two can be a bear to break down with scout choices

 

Scout Snipers are pretty easy to find the usefulness for. They seem tailor made to add Sgt Telion and a ML too, but do you keep them at 5 or bump them to 10?

Telion is the king of beasts, at 10 men youll find he becomes cheaper (stay with me).. he gives scuts a 'free' cloak (kind of), so for every man you take he essentially becomes more value for money.

also you need about ten men to gaurantee a rending hit with sniper shots, this is handy if you want to hit vehicles.. always take the ML with telion for the BS6 shot.

i see some people advocate the HB, but since it can fire a template it stands a good chance of doing something withoit telions help

 

Scouts - do you give them bolters or shot guns or a mix? HB? or keep them BP CCW? How do you kit them if you plan to use them in a Landspeeder Storm? I would like to throw in a LSS into my army as I dont see them around my area often.

Bolter scouts are a tough unit to use, mine are pretty much bait, ususally dying first every game, scouts are inferior to marines until you take into account thier special rules.. at which point al you can do is compare stat lines, and that serves no-one.

bolters are ok, but with a lower BS the assault scouts are much better, its worth noting that on the charge a ccw unit can defeat a tac squad (and is alot cheaper too)

if you facing marines, id say take the MM on the LSS,and a combi-melta and meltabombs (maybe a fist if youve got the spare points) on the sergeant.. this combo eats LRs for breakfast.

 

Scout Bikes? Worth it? whats the load out? 2x Bolter 1x AGL?

scout bikes should be in every army IMO, when people use 3 its usually to provide a teleport homer for DSing units and pods.. you need at least 5 to make them effective.. i use ten with 3GL and a fist that comes in at 265 points (IIRC), and ive no qualms about taking on 5 termies with these guys, the sheer number of shooting wounds they cause is awesome and TL bolters were made with scouts BSin mind.

The GL are far better as frag than krak, i usually miss 75% of my krak shots but my scatter dice loves me at the moment, so its not hard to cuase 8-10 wounds, even needing 5s just with the GLs (they are rapid fire remember)

 

anything I am missing?

have a look at the lins in my sig, you might get some ideas.. mos of the guys here are familair with the best ways to run scouts, so im sure they will give the same/similar advice

[maturin]

I've only recently started to use scout bikes, but I love them. T4(5) really helps offset the 4+ save, and their special rules essentially let them be anywhere on the table you want, when you want.

 

3 man squads seem a bit fragile. I've only used a 5 man squad so far, but it seems a good compromise between durability and unwieldiness on the tabletop - 10 bikes takes up a lot of real estate! I guess that could be an advantage as well as not...

 

I like a PF on the sarge - it makes the unit viable in CC, whether against vehicles or backfield infantry.

[Luis_CC]

I strongly recommend the sniper scouts with telion and ML. The matter is that the opponent has to be very careful with the deployment (sorry for your LS o dread first turn explosion), as you can infiltrate and scout, and you have long range weapons (they can shoot all the turns, who else can?)

 

I have used BP and CCW scouts and I don´t like them as much as the sniper ones. But they are cheap and more tough than you can think.

In fact, I am thinking about a 10scouts squad with double fist for the sargent.

 

In relation to biker scouts, they are very difficult to use properly (hit and run can be the key) but their special rules can lift you to another tactical level. Alpha strikes, help with placing drop pods or vanguard veterans, contesting objetives...all you can imagine can be easily done, but you will have to care of them as they are quite fragile.

[Wildfire]

Personally, I think bp/ccw scouts are the best way to use them. Bolter scouts are much weaker than the three point difference between their tac brother would suggest, and tacs aren't all that great themselves. Snipers are no good either, in my mind. I've heard good things about shotgun scouts in certain situations, but I've never tried them so I couldn't tell you if they were true.

 

In fact, I am thinking about a 10scouts squad with double fist for the sargent.

 

If by this you mean that you want to put two fists on a biker sgt, you can't. You must replace the bolt pistol with a power fist, and you can't do that if you have no bolt pistol left from doing it the first time.

[Luis_CC]

Personally, I think bp/ccw scouts are the best way to use them. Bolter scouts are much weaker than the three point difference between their tac brother would suggest, and tacs aren't all that great themselves. Snipers are no good either, in my mind. I've heard good things about shotgun scouts in certain situations, but I've never tried them so I couldn't tell you if they were true.

 

In fact, I am thinking about a 10scouts squad with double fist for the sargent.

 

If by this you mean that you want to put two fists on a biker sgt, you can't. You must replace the bolt pistol with a power fist, and you can't do that if you have no bolt pistol left from doing it the first time.

 

No, I mean 9scouts BP+CCW and sargeant with 2fists.

[greatcrusade08]

theres little point tbh, 25 points for one extra attack....

it would be better if you took a combi-flamer IMO, youll do more damage with that than with two or three turns with one extra attack

[rat of vengence]

LSS is my favourite bit of kit at the moment. I love outflanking with it's heavy flamer, toting along 5 scouts with ccw/bolt pistol, the sergant with powerfist and combiflamer if I have the points. Use it to take a poorly defended rear objective, a bunkered down tank/basilisk, or even tie down a tac squad so you can get something choppier into their face.

Another benefit of an outflanking unit is either the opponent ignores the threat, leaving something vunerable, or fears it and is constrained in his deployment/manouvre options.

It's all good! Just don't expect it to live long after the first toasting...

 

RoV

[Shadowstalker Grim]

How would a 5 man unit, with meltabombs, power weapon in a LSS perform as a group of behind enemy lines tank hunter/disruptor unit?

 

Also does the LSS come with a MM? Or is it just a HB? Is the HB a reasonable choice? Is it worth making the sarge of this tiny unit even more costly by giving him a powerfist instead, or a combi-weapon in addition to the power weapon?

 

 

I've been quite interested in this unit and am liking it more and more every time I see it!

[rusty1109]

I love my LSS!

 

I run a stock storm (HB) with CC squad MB's and a PF. They have a pretty good chance of wrecking a tank when they come on, or mushing a dark eldar HQ character with the fist turn one (Opponent was fuming, serves him right for running him solo in an annihilation game!!).

 

When facing opponents you really don't want to deep strike or outflank (orks, tyranids) I normally use mine to zip up and down my line as a mobile firebase / counter assault unit that also helps avoid nasty deep striking units (jamming beacon!), last game I played they managed to turn a 25 strong boyz squad that had just chewed through a combat squad, again opponent was fuming... "they're just scouts!" (got to love cereberus launchers!)!

 

In objective games it's the perfect unit for a late grab or contest as well.

 

Basically I keep mine as a cheap fun unit that I throw at a specific threat or use to react to unexpected situations.

 

Did I mention that I love using it?

[rat of vengence]

How would a 5 man unit, with meltabombs, power weapon in a LSS perform as a group of behind enemy lines tank hunter/disruptor unit?

What is a power weapon bringing you in this unit? That is pure anti-infantry, and not the right place for it. Powerfist every time if you are hunting tanks.

 

Also does the LSS come with a MM? Or is it just a HB? Is the HB a reasonable choice? Is it worth making the sarge of this tiny unit even more costly by giving him a powerfist instead, or a combi-weapon in addition to the power weapon?

It comes with a HB, anything else needs converting and is extra points. With scout BS you are missing half the time with your multimelta, so I go with the heavy flamer. No 'to hit' roll is good! I sometimes kit the sergeant with a combiflamer, but I have heard of some people who run multimelta with a combimelta on the sergeant. Open topped vehicle don't forget :P

 

RoV

[greatcrusade08]

How would a 5 man unit, with meltabombs, power weapon in a LSS perform as a group of behind enemy lines tank hunter/disruptor unit?

What is a power weapon bringing you in this unit? That is pure anti-infantry, and not the right place for it. Powerfist every time if you are hunting tanks.

 

agreed, the power fist is the all rounder, it can hurt anything on the table, whereas the PW is anti-infantry only

 

Also does the LSS come with a MM? Or is it just a HB? Is the HB a reasonable choice? Is it worth making the sarge of this tiny unit even more costly by giving him a powerfist instead, or a combi-weapon in addition to the power weapon?

It comes with a HB, anything else needs converting and is extra points. With scout BS you are missing half the time with your multimelta, so I go with the heavy flamer. No 'to hit' roll is good! I sometimes kit the sergeant with a combiflamer, but I have heard of some people who run multimelta with a combimelta on the sergeant. Open topped vehicle don't forget :)

 

im one of those players ;)

i agree that on its own a MM is a bad choice, however i couple mine with a combi-melta, fist and meltabombs on the sergeant.. ive built it to destroy LRs and the three melta weapons together stand a pretty good chance of downing a raider.

the fist is there 'just in case', youd be surprised how many times the unit gets charged by the nobz squad or hammernators that comes out of the fallen transport.. and the number of times ive taken one or two with me with the fist makes it more than worth their inclusion.

 

Flamer on the storm is always good option when your backfield, its great for scout hunting in marine armies and most other armies have 4+ armour saves.. if you target those you dont roll to hit, usually need a 2 to wound each model and they dont get a save or cover save..

its a truelly beautiful weapon

[DarkGuard]

How would a 5 man unit, with meltabombs, power weapon in a LSS perform as a group of behind enemy lines tank hunter/disruptor unit?

What is a power weapon bringing you in this unit? That is pure anti-infantry, and not the right place for it. Powerfist every time if you are hunting tanks.

 

agreed, the power fist is the all rounder, it can hurt anything on the table, whereas the PW is anti-infantry only

 

Would the power weapon not get some use in an all rounder LSS? Say, heavy flamer to flaming infantry off of objectives, and close combat weapons or shotguns on the normal guys. If you put a power weapon and meltabombs on the Sergeant, you've got some powered attacks for harder infantry, meltabombs for vehicles alongside your krak grenades and it costs less. Now normally I'd go for power fists, even in the age old debate of power weapon and meltabombs vs powerfist. However, the Scout squad is a small and fragile unit, so it would not be better to have the power weapon to get some powered attacks in at initiative, while with the power fist your entire squad could be wiped out before it gets to swing?

[greatcrusade08]

Would the power weapon not get some use in an all rounder LSS? Say, heavy flamer to flaming infantry off of objectives, and close combat weapons or shotguns on the normal guys. If you put a power weapon and meltabombs on the Sergeant, you've got some powered attacks for harder infantry, meltabombs for vehicles alongside your krak grenades and it costs less. Now normally I'd go for power fists, even in the age old debate of power weapon and meltabombs vs powerfist. However, the Scout squad is a small and fragile unit, so it would not be better to have the power weapon to get some powered attacks in at initiative, while with the power fist your entire squad could be wiped out before it gets to swing?

 

i understand your point, but if the whole unit gets wiped out then youve charged the wrong unit.. the LSS scouts are a bully unit, taking on reduced enemy squads and those who are generally 'weaker' than themselves.. a Pw does have it uses, but its just not an all rounder.. 5 guys with a fist can instagib an enemy character, kill a tank and take on heavy infantry like tac squads with some measure of success..

the power weapon is a good weapon, but the fist is better IMO.. as for fist vs meltabombs, youve got 1 attack vs 3.. the only time meltabombs come into play is vs raiders, which is why my squads get fist and meltabomb.

 

im not dismissing the PW, ive seen them work with LSS teams (the heavy flamer combo) and they are good, but in my humble opinion the melta combo with fist is a far better build

[DarkGuard]

No no, that's a fair point GC08. I generally run power fists over power weapons for their ability to take on tanks, insta kill characters, and generally wound easier. I suppose a power fist and some meltabombs with the spare points would perhaps work best, and I certainly wasn't thinking of the whole picking the right units thing. Of course if they went up against a bit unit they would get killed, but I see your point, with their LSS they get to pick and choose their fights, meaning they should always be getting the right unit. You know, I may have to think about putting one of these into my list, could be interesting and fun to use.

[thade]

Power Weapons always disappoint me. Str 8 is totally worth it; wounding on 2s = you are going to paste somebody. The power fist is your friend. =)

[greatcrusade08]

Power Weapons always disappoint me. Str 8 is totally worth it; wounding on 2s = you are going to paste somebody. The power fist is your friend. =)

 

in my last three games 80% of my power fist wounds have come up with a 1... there must be a bad luck troll out to get me!

its becoming quite the 'in' joke.. "power fist hits, watch it come up as a one"... and it does

[Shadowstalker Grim]

Ah dear, of course I guess that when it does come through, its quite the cause for celebration!

 

Powerfist is obviously better than a power weapon, but I suppose at only a little more, its not too much of a stretch to upgrade the power weapon to a fist..

 

You use the term 'bully unit' but I wouldn't really find 5 scouts too scary unless I was a weakened or shooty based squad, I take it that apart from taking on weakened squads you use them to hunt things like devastators? Something like a tactical squad seems like it would just laugh at the scouts, even if it did take a few nasty punches...

[greatcrusade08]

You use the term 'bully unit' but I wouldn't really find 5 scouts too scary unless I was a weakened or shooty based squad, I take it that apart from taking on weakened squads you use them to hunt things like devastators? Something like a tactical squad seems like it would just laugh at the scouts, even if it did take a few nasty punches...

 

youd be very surprised what these guys are capable of.. give the sergeant a combi-flamer and those 5 scouts are more than capable of taking on a bare bones tac squad

flame template and 4 pistol shots on the way in

12 regular attacks and 3 PF attacks against the survivors, worst case its 12 attacks back..

 

never underestimate scouts :blink:

 

i frequently take shrike and ten ccw scouts, in my last game between them they took out a nurgle daemon prince, 7 nurgle termies, a skull champ with PW and a CSM champ with PW in 3 turns

i still had an unwounded captain, scout sergeant and another two scouts left at the end.

in the same game a LSS squad charged 6 CSM (weakened squad) and killed them all bar the champ in one game turn (two combats).. i only lost them becuase berserkers were re-routed.

 

marines with 2 attacks base, i.e assault marines, grey hunters, CSMs, sternguard, are probably the wrong targets, but tac marines are fair game to LSS squads

[Meatman]

I like the power weapon on scout teams of five, because even if you bully the correct unit, the WS3 majority will mean you have quite a few saves coming back on you. That, coupled with the 4+ save, means more often then not (for me anyway), my fist wont swing.

 

Hitting at initiative helps reduce the hurt if your sergeant does take one for the team, as he will have put out his attacks before he cops it.

 

 

My storm crews normally hit infantry, so I don't bother with meltabombs, and have combat blades or shotguns, power weapon, and heavy flamer for the storm. 150 points total. Favourite targets are dev marines, tact squads without fists (so I wouldn't go for Thades...), krak grenading light, non-moving vehicles (whirlwinds or preds), scout squads in general.

[Hyaenidae]

I run a scout squad pretty similar to Meatman's set-up, but I use them for stalking armour and (especially) artillery. A LS Storm with multi-melta, and scouts with 2 shotties, two BP/CCW, and a Sgt. with a PF. I've broken Imp. Guard armour columns and Arty batteries, as well as CSM Defilers and Vindi's. If neccessary, they can be used as a suicide squad to pin down or hold off a troop choices towards the end of objective based games, or even target soft HQ's, while the Storm zooms off to melt some more transports. Generally, they run around, irritate my opponent, and break vehicle formations twice their point cost. I never leave home without my "Air Assault" Scouts. -_-

 

Edit: Terrible spelling...

[greatcrusade08]

the unit is incredibly versatile and can meet many requirements, brother tual used his with twin HB for back line dakka..

meatman goes for infantry targets, whilst i predominantly build them for my anti-AV14.. of course i use them against anything squishy, often with pleasing results :P

[Shadowstalker Grim]

See I'd quite like a versatile and cheap all-round squad to go and take out varying targets depending on the enemy. For instance against mech enemies they could pose a threat and take out larger tanks, saving my other weapons for other targets and against shooting enemies they could move in and punch up exposed backliner squads or as a general use, take out weakened enemies and support my advance or grab objectives late game..

[I AM THE AWESOME]

its becoming quite the 'in' joke.. "power fist hits, watch it come up as a one"

 

;) NEVER say that! Because then:

 

... and it does

 

will happen EVERY TIME! Don't you know the basics of powerfist jinxing?!

 

Anyways. I'm a fan of taking a hybrid LSS team - run them Sgt. with combi-melta/Powerfist, LSS with heavy flamer. That way the heavy flamer can offset the small amount of firepower the scouts themselves are capable of, but I can still go around and bust tanks. It's proven an annoying unit to deal with.