Mars and the search for tech

[elohimalpha]

Had an idea rattling around in my brain, but before I flesh it out any further, I'm wondering if it's even plausible (or necessary) in the 40k universe. I was thinking about Chapters recovering archeotech and STC, and that the Chapters can hand them over for bonus points and whatnot, or they can give the AdMech the finger and keep the secrets for themselves (looking at you, Blood Angels). I know the AdMech has armed forces to protect their interests, but how active are they in recovering lost/stolen tech? Could (and would) the AdMech (or a faction within the AdMech) create a Chapter in secret, with the express goal of recovering technology? The Chapter would be a crusading force, heavily supported by factions within the AdMech. They would see conflict with fellow Astartes as a lamentable but necessary action, and would be considered renegades (if not traitors) by all but the AdMech.

[Ferrata]

I think there was a very similar chapter to this called the Steel Confessors (not the Iron Knights or Champions as I first thought). They were designed for a Games Day - an entire chapter against the 'Nid horde. They were meant to be made in secret by the AM (again, GW being poor at what we do well) and then forced into normal service once the High Lords found out. I believe they we meant to be seeking out STC.

 

There have been a could of STC-hunting chapters (I believe one was called the Iron Dragons, but so is every third chapter :)). It isn't a bad hook, but I think personally it is more of a sidedish then the main course. It adds a nice bit of character, some drive to the chapter but don't over do it because you start pushing the boundaries of the believable. It also makes more sense for them to be a standard chapter that has kind of stumbled onto this path instead of being created for it.

[Direach]

I agree; service to or extremely close alliance with another Imperial agency tends to set of canonic alarm bells. An alternative is that the chapter has, through whatever means, become extremely proficient at locating and retrieving lost technology, to the point that they have attracted the ire of the Mechanicus. I wouldn't go so far as to say the chapter has its own STC, but they might very well have come into knowledge that greatly reduces their dependence on the Mechanicus for arms and armour.

 

There are already a couple of heavily tech-oriented canon chapters with similar angles (Iron Hands and Sons of Medusa), so I would research them thoroughly before you work up your own stuff along those lines; the less crossover the better. The latest Forge World IA book reveals (for instance) that the Sons of Medusa can actually construct new Dreadnought chassis and sarcophagi in-house, the knowledge of which is all but extinct outside the Mechanicus. That is a pretty major revelation.

 

Perhaps your chapter discovered a lost boltgun pattern, and is now fielding weapons that have gone unseen for millennia (not to any tabletop gain, for a playable army). You can be sure the Mechanicus would want to get a good long look at something like that, or seize it for themselves.

[elohimalpha]

Thanks for the input gentlemen! I knew I wasn't coming up with something novel by having close ties to the AdMech - I knew about the Iron Hands, but the Steel Confessors sound a lot like what I was aiming for. Somehow I got the impression that the Relictors were in a similar situation; kind of, but not really.

 

I realize having a "secret" Chapter that is under the direct control of factions within the AdMech is blurring/crossing some canonical lines, but that's what makes them sort of interesting (to me at least). Yes, they are Astartes, but they serve the Imperium and their Emperor by bolstering the AdMech with lost technologies. This isn't some half-hearted attempt to get new and better toys in to the Chapter either - these Marines exist to seek out technology, rip it from whomever's cold dead hands, and deliver it back to the AdMech. They'd have extremely limited manufacturing capabilities, so even if they wanted to go rogue and build on recovered STC, they couldn't. You've got some pretty solid points/ideas Direach, especially about attracting the ire of Mars, but in this case I'm aiming for the exact opposite effect.

 

As far as the hunting technology being a side dish instead of the main course, I agree; the technology shouldn't be slapping people in the face. The Chapter wouldn't be avoiding battles because there's no archeotech to be gained; in fact, who knows what valuable secrets an enemy commander may be hiding? Defense of the technology the AdMech already controls would also be very important, but of course the AdMech has forces for that. As for them sort of falling in to the position of tech hunters (vs. The secret-creation, which, I admit, sounds a little lazy), I came up with this scenario: Chapter XYZ is shattered in some major conflict (think Crimson Fists catastrophe). In a desperate bid to rebuild, they turn to the AdMech. Elements within the AdMech, still enraged over the Blood Angels' treachery in keeping the Baal STC, reason that if there had been a dedicated chapter of Astartes there to recover it, the situation would have played out differently. A deal is struck - the Chapter will live on, but under the guidance of the AdMech. Reasoning that living to fight another day is better than a swift death, the Chapter agrees to carry out the will of the Machine God (or something like that). Actually, I like that a lot better than a "secret founding"... hmm.

Whew, that was a bit more than I intended to write. As you can guess, I've built up more of a character for the Chapter (yes, I named them and made a color scheme - sigh, puppy love). Again, thanks for the time and the input.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

You could go a different way.

 

Chapter X discovers an STC - whether it works or is damaged - and delivers it to the STC and gets much gratitude and maybe a bit of equipment as a "reward".

 

Chapter Master Bob sees this reward and thinks that maybe having the AdMech onside and friendly might be a great idea - especially if they have just come from a hard fought campaign and are low on equipment - so whilst the Chapter goes around slaying the foes of Man they are also looking for STCs or hints of them in the hope of finding something worthy of another "reward".

 

Then you get the friendly AdMech angle, without the whole secret Chapter thing.. Obviously that needs to be written up alot better and the Chapter Master should not be called "Bob".

[Leonaides]

one problem. Your chapter is rather unlikely to ever find more than 1 or 2 stc patterns. Certainly not enough to say they make a habit of it. And looting xenos tech- thats what the deathwatch and inq do, and the ad mech itself... Beware of painting yourself into a corner here.

[Ace Debonair]

As far as the hunting technology being a side dish instead of the main course, I agree; the technology shouldn't be slapping people in the face. The Chapter wouldn't be avoiding battles because there's no archeotech to be gained; in fact, who knows what valuable secrets an enemy commander may be hiding?

On that note, where possible your marines could try to take a few enemies alive in battles, just so your librarians can torture any tech-based information out of them before killing them. :blush:

You could go a different way.

 

Chapter X discovers an STC - whether it works or is damaged - and delivers it to the STC and gets much gratitude and maybe a bit of equipment as a "reward".

 

Chapter Master Bob sees this reward and thinks that maybe having the AdMech onside and friendly might be a great idea - especially if they have just come from a hard fought campaign and are low on equipment - so whilst the Chapter goes around slaying the foes of Man they are also looking for STCs or hints of them in the hope of finding something worthy of another "reward".

 

Then you get the friendly AdMech angle, without the whole secret Chapter thing.. Obviously that needs to be written up alot better and the Chapter Master should not be called "Bob".

This I quite like, actually.

one problem. Your chapter is rather unlikely to ever find more than 1 or 2 stc patterns. Certainly not enough to say they make a habit of it. And looting xenos tech- thats what the deathwatch and inq do, and the ad mech itself... Beware of painting yourself into a corner here.

That's a good point. you could make the STCs that you do find rather trivial ones, too. Or better yet, incomplete/damaged ones.

[Heru]

My Iron Raptors are STC hunters:

Iron Raptors (Blog category) & Iron Raptors (Liber thread)

[Leonaides]

There is no such thing as a trivial STC though. the recon unit who found a new STC for a better type of knife were each awarded a Planet to rule. Now, it might have been an STC for a dedicated Combat Blade, or it might have been a simple carving knife, or even a plough blade... Whatever it was, the Imperium has managed to turn it into a weapon.

 

Even an STC for a better chimney design can affect the Ad Mech war supply ability - better chimney equals better disposal of waste products (or maybe more efficient gathering of those products for re-use) allowing more of them to be produced safely, withhout risking damage to factory machines, etc.

[elohimalpha]

I'm with Leonaides on this one: every little bit counts. I like the thought process on the improved chimneys - xenos and heretics will tremble before the low emissions and unrivaled efficiency of the Imperial Chimney! The Chapter wouldn't be concerned with xenos tech recovery unless it was somehow based on ancient Imperial designs (yeah, don't ask me how that'd work... maybe a gretchin is using a dataslate as a lean-to somewhere). And thanks for the advice about painting myself in to a corner - I consider the Chapter a force the AdMech uses when they want their involvement in a conflict to be a secret. Why does the AdMech need to be secretive? *insert handwavium*

 

I know that STC is going to be pretty rare, and I'd keep the discovery rates pretty low - like maybe 2-3 per millenia. Expanding STC beyond the purely military will present the opportunity to increase the number of "significant" finds, and recovery of data fragments will also be a large focus of the Chapter (I keep thinking of data fragments as Pieces of Heart from the Zelda games...).

 

Ace, it both comforts and disturbs me that I had the same thought about Librarians being master torturers... *shudder*

 

CJJ, I had considered that quest-reward angle, and I like it, but I don't know if it could still be a defining characteristic of the Chapter - what Chapter wouldn't hand over an STC that they couldn't use in hopes of a reward? Plus, then it gets the Chapter mired in political games and all that headache. I'm aiming for a bit more grim-dark situation: the Chapter has sold their soul for the strength to fight on. The AdMech is pulling their strings, and the Chapter has to dance along - they control the Chapter's geneseed and their rearmament, and pretty much everything else the Chapter needs to conduct war. Space Marines as indentured servants - it could work.

[Guest Mordray]

The Chapter wouldn't be concerned with xenos tech recovery unless it was somehow based on ancient Imperial designs (yeah, don't ask me how that'd work... maybe a gretchin is using a dataslate as a lean-to somewhere).

 

Seems like I read somewhere that some xeno's have been found to be using tech derived from pre-dark age human tech. IIRC there is also a faction/aspect of the Admech that is devoted to studying xeno tech to try and pry out the old human tech secrets the xeno scum have corrupted for their own use.

[Ace Debonair]

There is no such thing as a trivial STC though. the recon unit who found a new STC for a better type of knife were each awarded a Planet to rule. Now, it might have been an STC for a dedicated Combat Blade, or it might have been a simple carving knife, or even a plough blade... Whatever it was, the Imperium has managed to turn it into a weapon.

 

Even an STC for a better chimney design can affect the Ad Mech war supply ability - better chimney equals better disposal of waste products (or maybe more efficient gathering of those products for re-use) allowing more of them to be produced safely, withhout risking damage to factory machines, etc.

Alright, good point. :wallbash:

 

But what if the STC for said chimney required more time, money and rarer materials to manufacture? A marginally improved chimney that takes two months longer to make and requires much larger amounts of fictionium than usual is probably of less use to the AdMech than the chimneys they already have.

 

But the AdMech being the AdMech, they'd probably just be happy to have another piece of the great technology puzzle back, even if it is somewhat of a wash-out, and hand your chapter a suitable reward.

 

...At least, that makes sense in my head. ;)

[Jehoel]

Well, there is this page from the Lexicanum.

 

The Quest for Knowledge

 

The Quest for Knowledge is the driving mission of the Adeptus Mechanicus. The quest consists of research and exploration, but ultimately the focus of the quest is on the recovery of a working Standard Template Construct (STC) system. The purpose of the many exploratory missions is the recovery of STC knowledge.

 

For thousands of years the Tech-priests have pursued all information about the STC. To the Mechanicus, it is their lost bible. Any information on the STC including the scraps of knowledge recorded on hard copy designs are sought out and kept as holy texts. No functional STC systems have ever been recovered. The STC survives only as print-outs, some of which are many thousands of years old. Although considered the most reliable, there are very few first generation print-outs, and these are regarded as the most sacred of texts.

 

Through the Tech-priests' efforts much has been recovered or reconstructed through comparison of copies, although preserved knowledge of the most advanced technology eludes the Adeptus Mechanicus. Most of the early colonists' needs were simple and very few would have bothered to preserve the more theoretical and advanced technological information the STC contained.2

 

During the Horus Heresy, this quest led fully half of the Mechanicum, including the Fabricator General himself, to secede from the rule of Terra. See Dark Mechanicum for details.

 

So there is some room for these ideas.

[elohimalpha]

After reading up on the Steel Confessors, I'm not entirely sure how the AdMech would be able to control a Chapter a second time; I think the Inquisition/HLoT would be watching the AdMech even more closely. It helps that I've scrapped the "secret creation" thought - if the Chapter was pre-existing, it eliminates a lot of the start-up costs (so to speak). As long as the Chapter operates on the fringes of Imperial space and is brutally efficient at keeping their existence a secret :) it could work. I intend to keep the Chapter largely ignorant of their past - it would afford the AdMech greater control. The more veteran marines would "advance through the Mysteries" (or something equally cryptic), gaining knowledge of their history as they demonstrate their devotion to the Machine God, keeping the Chapter's leadership focused on fulfilling their obligations to the AdMech.

 

Mordray- would love to read that article if it pops up! Lots of story potential there

 

Jehoel- thanks for the link! Really helps solidify that the AdMech isn't just passively waiting for old stuff to trickle in, giving the Chapter (and the apparent dozens I've inadvertently ripped off :D ) a reason to exist.

[Guest Mordray]

That's part of my problem. I have lots of raw information, but no real way of confirming where I got it from.

 

 

You might check on the Ordo Xenos.

[Leonaides]

gaining knowledge of their history as they demonstrate their devotion to the Machine God, keeping the Chapter's leadership focused on fulfilling their obligations to the AdMech.

Problem being, why would the Chapter Masters want to keep their chapter under the thumb of the Ad Mech. These are proud, willful men, who bend their knee to no-one save the Emperor and their Primarch. Why would they start obeying Joe Tech-Priest who's only been in the subsector for 50 years. And who smells, doenst actually worship the Emperor, and caused the deathts of 80 marines so he could get a better flashlight?

 

If the Chapter Leadership was desperate to know of their origins and the Ad Mech told them, then the Ad Mech would lose their hold on the chapter. And if the Ad Mech refused to tell them, I doubt the marines would fall for 'jam tomorrow' for very long...

[elohimalpha]

gaining knowledge of their history as they demonstrate their devotion to the Machine God, keeping the Chapter's leadership focused on fulfilling their obligations to the AdMech.

Problem being, why would the Chapter Masters want to keep their chapter under the thumb of the Ad Mech. These are proud, willful men, who bend their knee to no-one save the Emperor and their Primarch. Why would they start obeying Joe Tech-Priest who's only been in the subsector for 50 years. And who smells, doenst actually worship the Emperor, and caused the deathts of 80 marines so he could get a better flashlight?

 

If the Chapter Leadership was desperate to know of their origins and the Ad Mech told them, then the Ad Mech would lose their hold on the chapter. And if the Ad Mech refused to tell them, I doubt the marines would fall for 'jam tomorrow' for very long...

 

Excellent points. The Chapter Masters would continue to serve the AdMech for a couple of reasons: 1) the AdMech would stress the debt the Chapter owes them for their salvation and 2) the AdMech controls all aspects of the Chapter's ability to fight - creation of new Marines, vehicle repair/rearmament, battle fleet maintenance, etc. So if the appeal to the Chapter's sense of duty doesn't keep them in line, the Chapter's inability to replace their losses would. Also, the Chapter isn't supposed to exist - I'm thinking that if the AdMech got ticked off enough, they'd just accuse the Chapter of being renegades/traitors (maybe not such a stretch given what the AdMech asks them to do). I think that having this "hierarchy of knowledge" would work pretty well, especially when combined with a Marine's loyalty.

[Guest Mordray]

2) the AdMech controls all aspects of the Chapter's ability to fight - creation of new Marines, vehicle repair/rearmament, battle fleet maintenance, etc. So if the appeal to the Chapter's sense of duty doesn't keep them in line, the Chapter's inability to replace their losses would.

 

The AdMech would be severely stretching the edicts of the separation of powers if they were doing this to the chapter.

 

As for the renegades aspect all it'd take is for a more then casual contact with an Inquisitor to put a wrinkle in the plan. Don't forget that Inquisitors don't always announce who they are and they love to employ more mundane aids. For all the Admech and the Chapter know an Inquisition spy(s) have already infiltrated the organization. If (s)he goes missing it'll cause problems especially if they start hunting for and find the wrong guy...

 

I smell storyline... an Inquisitor finds out via his numerous acolytes on seemingly countless worlds and ships that the Admech has another pet chapter and lacking the pull to confront them directly he instead begins a secret campaign to reveal the noble yet enslaved chapter to those who can aid them... could be good but would need to be written from a mystery stance with the Admech handlers slowly and finding out all to late what's happening for them to effectively declare the chapter renegades.

[XKhalilX]

i dont see a problem with it, it just has to be executed properly.

 

my Children of Eternity have a hidden alliance with the Ad Mech and defend forgeworlds and trackdown STC's for the admech. there also Omnissiah worshipping nutjubs, so they fit right in with the Martian folk.

 

check my sig or the librarium for their article. Perhaps it will jolt some creative juices for you.

[elohimalpha]

Mordray- That's a fantastic storyline suggestion! I can see how it would also raise an internal debate among the Inquisitor as to whether the Chapter can be redeemed, or have their actions (in the service of Mars) damned them . . . As far as the "separation of powers" aspect, I agree that it pretty much goes against the edicts. I'd keep the AdMech's involvement down to a (secret!) radical (and powerful-enough-to-pull-it-off-and-cover-it-up) faction. Again, my hope that keeping the Chapter on the fringes of Imperial space and constantly on the move would lessen suspicions (which doesn't mean much in a galaxy of paranoid megalomaniacs . . .)

 

XKhalilX- I'll check it out! Definitely don't want to re-tread anyone's turf, and I'm curious to see how others handle "big secrets".

 

Thanks again for the interest and help guys - you're helping me answer those tough questions I'd never ask myself