Null Blades

[Darkchild130]

I think if nobody says anything it's either good, or made of fail. But thankfully this is one of the formers, for me at least.

Or third option, there is nothing to comment, because the Chapter lacks any character.

 

No offence, but the IA based around combat tactic doesn't work, because the Chapter is simply boring. This is the example of such case, add here that your Chapter is like copy-paste of Raptors (there is also similarity with Trub's Shadow Falcons) and we are at home.

To be honest, it will be a lot better if you actually told your reader WHY is your Chapter the way it is and WHY are your Marines doing things the way they are doing them. Explanation is the foundation of Index Astartes.

 

Btw, Lastrati is/was World purged by Black Templars in 543.M36.

 

Dont care about Lastrati, they were long gone by M36.

 

As for the rest, I'm sorry you feel that way, but I said at the start it was a Raptor clone (I later deleted that line, maybe I should put it back).

The only reason I didn't just use the raptors themselves is because they are an established chapter so I couldn't do my anti psyker beliefs with them.

they are close to them on purpose.

Also, as a soldier I feel the way a unit fights defines them more than what colours they wear or what their culture's traditions are, maybe thats just me.

 

Give me an example of what you think is an especially interesting IA, then I will be able to judge if I want to follow your advice or not (as I may think your preferences are boring)

 

Thanks for commenting

 

Darkchild

[NightrawenII]

As for the rest, I'm sorry you feel that way, but I said at the start it was a Raptor clone (I later deleted that line, maybe I should put it back).

The only reason I didn't just use the raptors themselves is because they are an established chapter so I couldn't do my anti psyker beliefs with them.

they are close to them on purpose.

:P

Well, then there is nothing to do or say.

 

Also, as a soldier I feel the way a unit fights defines them more than what colours they wear or what their culture's traditions are, maybe thats just me.

What defines Space Marine Chapter is their Creed. All other things, including combat doctrines, are just extension of said definition.

 

Give me an example of what you think is an especially interesting IA, then I will be able to judge if I want to follow your advice or not (as I may think your preferences are boring)

Weeeell, it's you, whose IA lacks comments, not me.... :)

 

Anyway, Chapters of Codex Grey and Castigators are my favorites in Librarium.

[Darkchild130]

So I've just read the Castigators IA. They are EXACTLY the kind of Religious crusading fanatics I am striving to get away from.

plus, the thinking that creed is everything is the mentality I want to avoid too, I find such dogmatic behaviour quite dull.

 

My chapter stresses self discipline, adaptability self reliance and relaxed professionalism, the exact qualities that would probably get them severely punished if they were in the Castigators!!

 

I think our interests are diametrically opposed, so while I appreciate your comments, I dont think my chapter will ever be to your liking. Though seeing some of the dissections I have seen of other IAs, I think I have broken very few rules when it comes to creating DIY chapters, so that's apositive to me :P

 

Darkchild

[Dinks]

My chapter stresses self discipline, adaptability self reliance and relaxed professionalism, the exact qualities that would probably get them severely punished if they were in the Castigators!!

Good, stay away from the zealots, far too many chapters that seem to follow that line. Stick to what you do best which seems to be writing about Space Marines with a real knowledge of how to fight!

[CantonWC]

So I've just read the Castigators IA. They are EXACTLY the kind of Religious crusading fanatics I am striving to get away from.

plus, the thinking that creed is everything is the mentality I want to avoid too, I find such dogmatic behaviour quite dull.

 

I don't think you understand what Nightrawen means.

 

Personally i love the Castigators. Far and away the best IA on the Liber because of the amount of work that went into it. But that's beside the point.

 

Your Chapter doesn't have to be religious fanatics. But we would still like to know what they're like as people. How they view other Chapters, ordinary people, other Imperial institutions. What their general outlook and attitude is. Simply thinking that combat doctrine is enough is, well, not enough. If we have an idea of what their general personality or philosophy is like, a lot of the other stuff will flow from that.

[NightrawenII]

Your Chapter doesn't have to be religious fanatics. But we would still like to know what they're like as people. How they view other Chapters, ordinary people, other Imperial institutions. What their general outlook and attitude is. Simply thinking that combat doctrine is enough is, well, not enough. If we have an idea of what their general personality or philosophy is like, a lot of the other stuff will flow from that.

QFT

 

When I say 'Creed', I mean mentality, attitude and behaviour. You are dedicating a lot of time and effort to explain us the combat doctrines of Chapter, but this is useless, because we don't know their reasons and motives.

This is the reason, why is the Chapter based around combat doctrine boring. Without knowing the cause behind their effort makes their struggle meaningless.

 

Though seeing some of the dissections I have seen of other IAs, I think I have broken very few rules when it comes to creating DIY chapters, so that's apositive to me.

Hmpf

You have copy-pasted fluff of other Chapter and call it a DIY. You are no different from people, who copy-paste Wikipedia page of some culture and think they are done. I wouldn't be so cocky... :rolleyes:

[Dinks]

This is the reason, why is the Chapter based around combat doctrine boring.

I wouldn't call it boring, just accurate. Darkchild is a soldier and so can bring real attitudes of soldiering to a chapter rather than over the top flamboyant chapters that probably wouldn't last very long in real combat.

[Darkchild130]

Your Chapter doesn't have to be religious fanatics. But we would still like to know what they're like as people. How they view other Chapters, ordinary people, other Imperial institutions. What their general outlook and attitude is. Simply thinking that combat doctrine is enough is, well, not enough. If we have an idea of what their general personality or philosophy is like, a lot of the other stuff will flow from that.

 

now there's good advice, when I get the chance I will expand on the (somewhat caustic) personalities of personnel in the chapter. I planned to do this anyway, but did not realise how integral it was for someone to enjoy the IA.

 

"Hmpf

You have copy-pasted fluff of other Chapter and call it a DIY. You are no different from people, who copy-paste Wikipedia page of some culture and think they are done. I wouldn't be so cocky... "

 

now thats unfair. I have an original fortress type and layout, an original recruiting method, they are effectively Atheists, they actually fight Differently from the raptors as I am keen to stress they are more orthodox and less reliant on stealth, having learnt from their early mistakes (meddling with psykers) they no longer stray too far from the codex.

this says a lot about their personality in itself. It shows that they are superstitious, like many soldiers, and just as distrustful of change as any other chapter, despite their outward personas.

While it's true I have based my chapter on the Raptors (I make no secret of the fact), I bring my own personality and more importantly military experience to put a stamp on them.

Eg. they are called Null Blades, commonly abbreviated to 'Blades. "The Blades" is a common informal term for British Special forces, so I snuck that in there as they are an elite military force.

Another Example. My 2nd company Captain's name is Roke. A Roke is a vein of ore in an otherwise perfect lump of metal alloy. He is called this to symbolise the fact that he does not fit in with his chapter, he is one apart from many (which I will elaborate on when I detail certain characters).

 

I put thought into everything I do, not just copy paste other chapter's fluff.

I started with the Raptors as a foundation, it has grown from there since. just because you do not like the particular chapter does not mean no work has gone into it.

now it must be pointed out I feel no ill will towards you and write this with no emotion, I'm merely pointing out it is unfair to assume something just because it shares a surface similarity with something else.

 

thanks for all the comments, and you Dinks for saying

"Space Marines with a real knowledge of how to fight!"

that is the whole point of the Null Blades.

So many Chapters are Tactically inept to the point of genuine Stupidity, I thought I would create some that aren't.

 

Darkchild

[NightrawenII]

I put thought into everything I do, not just copy paste other chapter's fluff.

I started with the Raptors as a foundation, it has grown from there since. just because you do not like the particular chapter does not mean no work has gone into it.

now it must be pointed out I feel no ill will towards you and write this with no emotion, I'm merely pointing out it is unfair to assume something just because it shares a surface similarity with something else.

It's not that I don't like your Chapter, far from that. I simply don't think that what you have here is enough. What is important to me in the DIY is the personality, character and nature of the Chapter. You are touching this aspect of DIY, but overall you ignoring this subject alltogether.

What I'm saying here is, ignore the combat doctine, because like you can see, it doesn't set your Chapter apart from Raptors, and to some extension from all other attempts of successor of Raptors. The general intention behind my posts thus far is this, you can have several Chapters with the similar or even the same combat doctrine, but if the core of the Chapter, ie. the personality and character is different, then each of them could be seen as original. Personally, I see combat doctrine as the extension of the character.

 

You said, "My Chapter stresses self-discipline, adaptability, self-reliance and relaxed professionalism..." and you should build upon this. How it comes the Chapter is like this? - Please, don't give me the that "... because they are successor of Raptors" crap. No chapter is clone of its parent, just look at the 'Primogenitors'. What is the foundation of such belief? - There is no action without cause... and ...there is no decision without reason. In other words, for every decision your Chapter makes, there should be "always" plausible explanation. Why are they atheist in the first place? - Don't forget this is the universe where faith is real.

 

Adressing these things will only improve your IA. Why? Because for me, the important part of DIY is not WHAT they do, but WHY they do these things. This is the interesting part of DIY, because it breaths life into you Marines and they feel like real people, not just puppets of your whim. Now look at your DIY and tell me where do you explain the stuff you have there. Yes, there is some vague and "mysterious" story about Librarians, but... that's all.

[Darkchild130]

I recognise these points, and am working as we speak for the reasons behind them. Hopefully I am forming context.

 

Though to clarify, the atheistic approach to life is related to the psyker incident, being typically ignorant as most inhabitants of the 41st millennium, they choose to deny the existence of gods much in the same way lots of people today believe in various deities without any proof.

 

I put it in as a play on the "born again Chritian" concept that I find laughable. In a galaxy where religion is all true, they experienced one thing that caused them to deny all higher powers.

 

Darkchild

 

EDIT: I have begun to expand the origins, beliefs, homeworld and recruiting sections.

[NightrawenII]

Though to clarify, the atheistic approach to life is related to the psyker incident, being typically ignorant as most inhabitants of the 41st millennium, they choose to deny the existence of gods much in the same way lots of people today believe in various deities without any proof.

Yeah, but there is difference. The Gods DO exist in W40k universe. Saying or believing otherwise is literal equivalent of closing your eyes and 'Lalalala-ing' them into oblivion.

[Darkchild130]

just like people today go "LALALA" and pretend gods exist. You see my point?

 

Darkchild

[NightrawenII]

just like people today go "LALALA" and pretend gods exist. You see my point?

 

Darkchild

Well, I do and I see my point... ::Looks at the Bloodthirster::

[Darkchild130]

to which they say

"It's just warp energy reacting to dirty psykers and their dirty rituals, kill kill kill."

 

Its really not a hard concept, merely satire. Why is this hard to accept?

 

Real life = oceans of scientific evidence disproving existence of god, yet we get religious people in our 'enlightened' age.

 

40k= oceans of evidence proving existence of gods, yet the Null blades are atheists, applying rational thought to absolute chaos.

 

both are exercises in futility, showing a null blade a bloodthirster will not shake his faith, he has had a lifetime of (incorrect) indoctrination telling him exactly why that bloodthirster is there.

 

Darkchild

[CantonWC]

I wouldn't call it boring, just accurate. Darkchild is a soldier and so can bring real attitudes of soldiering to a chapter rather than over the top flamboyant chapters that probably wouldn't last very long in real combat.

 

I'm not asking for flamboyance. We just want to know the motivations, the why behind what they do.

 

And I think it's unfair you're slamming other Chapters for tactical ineptitude. Mostly I will chalk it up to Black Library authors who have no grasp of real life strategy. Sure many Chapters subscribe to some incredibly foolhardy notions, like refusing to to sneak around. But the Astartes would not have upheld the Imperium for so long if they didn't at least have some idea of what they were doing.

[Dinks]

And I think it's unfair you're slamming other Chapters for tactical ineptitude. Mostly I will chalk it up to Black Library authors who have no grasp of real life strategy. Sure many Chapters subscribe to some incredibly foolhardy notions, like refusing to to sneak around. But the Astartes would not have upheld the Imperium for so long if they didn't at least have some idea of what they were doing.

 

Yeah i know what you mean, thats the downside to authors writing about something like combat, its very tough. Space Marines are not by nature a "sneaky" force, yes i know some chapters like the Raven Guard and such employ the tactic but Space Marines are assault troops pure and simple. In, hit hard and fast and out before the enemy knows whats going on.

 

I am being unfair on other chapters it is true, but a rare few on this board that have military experience that tend to write Space Marines in the way they are ment to fight, with real planning and tactics and then most people tend to knock the author for writing them without character. Just a little harsh if you ask me, but Darkchild is expanding his ideas as he said, so that is good. :)

[Aegnor]

We all bring different attitudes to our hobby. If people who are soldiers want to write about marines that behave accurately to real world combat terms, good on them. If people who see the hobby as escapist fantasy want to write about chapters that behave in a fantastical way, good on them too. I don't think either group should be contemptuous of other people's efforts. And if they are, they should expect that many people will dislike them doing so.

[NightrawenII]

40k= oceans of evidence proving existence of gods, yet the Null blades are atheists, applying rational thought to absolute chaos.

 

both are exercises in futility, showing a null blade a bloodthirster will not shake his faith, he has had a lifetime of (incorrect) indoctrination telling him exactly why that bloodthirster is there.

Consider this:

The possibility of falling into clutches of Chaos-gods is ever-present. Therefore ignoring the evidence of the Chaos-god's existence is rather self-destructive and dangerous behaviour.

 

I am being unfair on other chapters it is true, but a rare few on this board that have military experience that tend to write Space Marines in the way they are ment to fight, with real planning and tactics and then most people tend to knock the author for writing them without character. Just a little harsh if you ask me, but Darkchild is expanding his ideas as he said, so that is good. :D

You misunderstood something here.

I'm not knocking the author because he is writing them with real planning and tactics, but because he is writing them without character. Combat doctrine doesn't tell you much about their personality or motives.

[Dinks]

Yes i understand, i wrote that reply at 2am so i probably didn't read your comment properly! :)

[Darkchild130]

Consider this:

The possibility of falling into clutches of Chaos-gods is ever-present. Therefore ignoring the evidence of the Chaos-god's existence is rather self-destructive and dangerous behaviour.

 

Now you're getting it.

 

My chapter are ignorant, flawed and quite possibly setting themselves up for a fall, actual combat is their strong point, if you read through my entire IA (bearing in mind I updated it yesterday) they are actually not very good astartes outside of fighting for the Emperor.

 

and on that note, has anybody read it since I added a bit more context? I dont think it gels well but I wrote it real fast so thats to be expected I guess.

 

CantonWC wrote

"And I think it's unfair you're slamming other Chapters for tactical ineptitude. Mostly I will chalk it up to Black Library authors who have no grasp of real life strategy. Sure many Chapters subscribe to some incredibly foolhardy notions, like refusing to to sneak around. But the Astartes would not have upheld the Imperium for so long if they didn't at least have some idea of what they were doing."

 

OR, 99% of all GW/BL fluff is written by people with no knowledge or interest in tactics or real combat, and are more interested in writing a decent sci-fantasy yarn. therefore nobody needs tactical knowledge as it doesn't exist in the Universe they have conjured up. Now there is nothing wrong with this, but it's not how I approach things.

 

I, like other members of this forum, say it as I see it. You can say my chapter is boring (though I urge you to read through the amendments), but on the flipside I am well within my rights to criticise most other chapters lack of real fighting ability, as this is my job, my life and something of a specialist subject of mine.

try to see my point of view, I am reading about some supposedly superior defenders of humanity who, as soon as they come under contact forget about command and control, forget about ammo states, positions of their own troops, what their overall objective is, pretty much forget why they are there in the first place.

Instead they decide to let off a few rounds from whatever gun they are holding, sometimes as an afterthought, before getting stuck into a brutal melee.

for me, as someone with extensive military experience, this ruins my suspension of disbelief.

 

I am not knocking anyone elses efforts, but my chapter is an extension of my personality, which is why (for better or worse) they are atheists, and focus primary on fighting efficiently to offset their many weaknesses. Their mentality does not fit in the 40k universe, so they try to keep it a secret. Sooner or later something is going to go wrong, but again that is the point, it's a tragedy waiting to happen.

As some of you know I also write stories, and the bit where it goes wrong is the bit that goes in the 'short story' section, rather than IA.

 

Thanks to everyone for contributing to my thread.

I will endeavour to make things more interesting, but it's a slow process.

 

Darkchild

[Generating Random Name...]

Instead they decide to let off a few rounds from whatever gun they are holding, sometimes as an afterthought, before getting stuck into a brutal melee.

 

But if you were in what is effectively armour that can stop anything up to tank shells would you not be more willing to jump into the fray? And if not more willing then at least more able if or when the time came?

[Darkchild130]

Instead they decide to let off a few rounds from whatever gun they are holding, sometimes as an afterthought, before getting stuck into a brutal melee.

 

But if you were in what is effectively armour that can stop anything up to tank shells would you not be more willing to jump into the fray? And if not more willing then at least more able if or when the time came?

 

Nope, my issue body armour can stop multiple rounds of 7.62mm. That doesn't mean I'm going to run at an enemy machine gun.

 

And being "willing" is totally different to sprinting headlong at the enemy in a fit of rage. I am willing to engage and kill the enemy in battle, i'm not willing to throw my life away.

It's calculated risk.

Having armour that can stop bolt rounds doesn't mean you act in a manner guaranteed to get you shot by bolters. That is poor kit husbandry, as your armour will not last nearly as long as it would if you just avoided fire the best you can. The armour is to boost combat prowess and increase survivability, not instill a sense of invinciblility.

thats how you get yourself killed.

 

Darkchild

[Dinks]

Nope, my issue body armour can stop multiple rounds of 7.62mm. That doesn't mean I'm going to run at an enemy machine gun.

Your body armour might be able to stop 7.62 rounds, but your body would be knackered underneath and would more than likely kill you if multiple rounds hit accurately!

 

I agree though that Space Marines have an urgency to wade into CQB, saying that though - if your a bog standard soldier watching a horde of screaming Space Marines running at your position, shugging off all by the most accurate/lucky shots and wade into the rest of your mates with chainswords, you would absolutely pap yourself. A great unnerver!

[Yogi]

Another opinion.. I might be off, but I'll chuck it in.

 

The beginning of the IA comes across as 90% mystery 10% fact. Spell it out a bit more I reckon. At least give me a name or something. Other wise its that crazy UNNAMED chapter master.. And his UNNAMED sergeant.

 

I can understand why one guy was saying the IA needs a WHY. I kinda agree.

 

Like if you said in the speech to the new recruits. "Our cousins are trapped by tradition and arrogance, we are not. Every action you take from this day forward will be dedicated to victory and its achievement. Nothing else is of worth, not honor nor glory nor acclaim. Only victory..." Then you would establish why these guys do things the way they do. IE because they only care about winning. Because right now they just seem to do it for no reason, because in the fluff honour bound chapters are winning 90% of their battles too. So what would be the justification for their practices..

 

I am surprised these guys don't call themselves Chapter 466. No icon etc is pretty no nonsense. I dont really like the "null" part of their name.

 

Duty and Death sounds pretty cool.

 

2cents

[Ecritter]

Remember, not symbol is still a symbol.