Just being nosey :)

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Greetings fellow wearers of cloth,

 

I was wondering how the FAQ has affected your games, game play and so on. I know some of us play against dudes who already 'FAQed' our Codices in line with C:SM, but not all of us are so blessed.

 

3++ Storm shields, 2 shot Cyclone MLs and decent missiles from the Speeder Typhoon.

 

I think these are the things we share from the FAQ.

 

How has this affected your unit selection and game performance?

[GlauG]

Think I've said this in other threads, but besides switching out all my Assault Cannons for CMLs, not a lot. I already took one TH/SS Termie in every squad anyway. :cuss Gamewise, I'm finding the 3++ makes my Deathwing survive a bit longer, but I don't think it's changed my tactics or playstyle a lot.

[Xyon]

I still take assault cannons in my squads. Haven't gotten any TH/SS yet either. I like the idea of having a few 'plasma catchers' in some of my squads though, I utterly detest lists I see where whole armies are TH/SS though, so unoriginal and without thought. It has tipped my belial conversion from just having the SoS/SB and LC arms, to also include TH/SS arms for swapping, and I am considering Cyclones now, but I still think our speeders are pretty weak.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I still take assault cannons in my squads. Haven't gotten any TH/SS yet either. I like the idea of having a few 'plasma catchers' in some of my squads though, I utterly detest lists I see where whole armies are TH/SS though, so unoriginal and without thought. It has tipped my belial conversion from just having the SoS/SB and LC arms, to also include TH/SS arms for swapping, and I am considering Cyclones now, but I still think our speeders are pretty weak.

 

What is it about Speeders that you don't like?

 

I would be surprised if Hammernators would win much - without the ability to shoot stuff, the enemy can play Tau-style and just fall back whilst keeping up the shooting. Thoughts?

[JeffJedi]

I think it makes Cyclones usable now, but not so godly as some people think. A balance of bot the Cyclone and the Assault Cannon in lists would be best. I also hate seeing all TH and SS lists.

 

The funny thing is since 3rd edition bot the Cyclone Missile Launcher and the Assault Cannon have gained an extra shot but the Heavy Flamer has stayed the same. Next thing we know it will be blasting about like an Inferno Cannon on the Hellhound to keep up.

[ancient god]

I think it makes Cyclones usable now, but not so godly as some people think. A balance of bot the Cyclone and the Assault Cannon in lists would be best. I also hate seeing all TH and SS lists.

 

The funny thing is since 3rd edition bot the Cyclone Missile Launcher and the Assault Cannon have gained an extra shot but the Heavy Flamer has stayed the same. Next thing we know it will be blasting about like an Inferno Cannon on the Hellhound to keep up.

 

The flamer has indirectly gained value because cover has become more important in 5 Ed.

[Master Avoghai]

Well at least it has influenced my modelling since I've just got a box of TH termi to enhance my current 4 squads... :P

 

I'm with Jeffjedi on both points : I don't think I'd go for the all-CML. In 1750pts game I use 4 DW squads. I think I'll equip 2 with CML, 2 with AC and maybe replace one AC by a HF depending on who I'll face... But it has defintly changed my way of playing since I used to play 3AC/1HF before the FAQ.

And for the FAQ I'm for mixing squad. The only weapon that would justify an all-SS squad is the plasma cannon (and still: after a DS if I chose not to run to scatter my termi)

 

It is unlikely that I'll face a squad shooting with enough AP2 weapon to saturate 2 or 3 SS. This way it let me the opprtunity to field a chainfist (still helpuful at 5pts) or LC (it's sometimes nice to strike with I4).

 

As for the Typhoon... Well it seems that 2 LS are my next modelling step ;)

[Xyon]

I still take assault cannons in my squads. Haven't gotten any TH/SS yet either. I like the idea of having a few 'plasma catchers' in some of my squads though, I utterly detest lists I see where whole armies are TH/SS though, so unoriginal and without thought. It has tipped my belial conversion from just having the SoS/SB and LC arms, to also include TH/SS arms for swapping, and I am considering Cyclones now, but I still think our speeders are pretty weak.

 

What is it about Speeders that you don't like?

 

I would be surprised if Hammernators would win much - without the ability to shoot stuff, the enemy can play Tau-style and just fall back whilst keeping up the shooting. Thoughts?

 

Well the TH/SS squads would also have cyclone launchers, so they have some ability to shoot stuff up.

 

I dont like the fact that our speeders are less versatile than codex speeders, granted our typhoons are cheaper than codex typhoons, but our tornado's with assault cannon are more expensive, I would also like to be able to field more than one in a squad though, granted vehicle squad rules suck, it would still be nice.

[ValourousHeart]

@ Xyon,

 

The reason that the HB/AC speeder is 10 points more than in c:sm is because it is scoring in a RWAS... there is never a reason to take one in the RWSS, as the other weapon options are better price/stat line.

And the MM/AC speeder is the same cost as in c:sm.

 

The speeder we pay a premium on is the basic HB speeder at a shocking 15 points more.

 

I have tried the MM/TML speeders, but they don't to perform any better than MM/AC at dealing with TDA squads and tanks/transports, which are my primary targets for them.

Only real benefit is cost, which means more upgrades for other units.

[EPK]

I still take assault cannons in my squads. Haven't gotten any TH/SS yet either. I like the idea of having a few 'plasma catchers' in some of my squads though, I utterly detest lists I see where whole armies are TH/SS though, so unoriginal and without thought. It has tipped my belial conversion from just having the SoS/SB and LC arms, to also include TH/SS arms for swapping, and I am considering Cyclones now, but I still think our speeders are pretty weak.

 

What is it about Speeders that you don't like?

 

I would be surprised if Hammernators would win much - without the ability to shoot stuff, the enemy can play Tau-style and just fall back whilst keeping up the shooting. Thoughts?

 

Well the TH/SS squads would also have cyclone launchers, so they have some ability to shoot stuff up.

 

I agree. Plus, loaded in the LRC, the Hammernators can be nasty with Belial w/DLC and that LRC has plenty of shooting, albeit of shorter range (and you cn use the POTMS to fire at a separate target). If you feel it's too much hammer, just throw in another clawed terminator and add that to Belial's 6 A on the charge (with banner). But I only run one hammer unit like that, the other is a mix, usually with 1-2 TH/SS to take the plasma shots. As others have noted, I'm not for a full hammer terminator army. One hard hammer unit is nice, but I feel they still need support, and even if they can win by shear survivability, it is a bit bland.

 

The Typhoon I simply included because of it's price to power ratio at first, however I quickly realized it's potential. People either overlook it to target other things or they try to target it and waste shots they could have thrown somewhere else. Last few games I have been running a pair of them. Holding one in reserve worked well in my last game, as I played a crazy list of 9 drop pods. The speeder was in by turn 3, skirting out 24 inches to pop a few pods for extra KPs. If you use terrain or speed for some extra cover save, it's a plus.

 

As ValourousHeart mentioned, they may not be that much better than a standard MM/AC version - can't really compare as I haven't used one it quite some time, I like the fast moving TML shots for the price though.

[LardO'Blood]

Well, I don't own any typhoons, but I enjoy the 3++ storm shields and CMLs immensely. I play tyranids regularly and now I can cut through hive tyrant/guard like a hot knife through butter with my "terminator command squad". I run it in pure Deathwing or with Greenwing.

The "terminator command squad" is complete perfection in 5 suits of TDA for only 290 points + Belial.

Belial with TLC

Sergeant with PS/SB

Standard bearer with TH/SS

Apothecary with TH/SS

TH/SS with CML

TH/SS

On the charge Belial puts out 6 LC attacks at WS5, the sergeant puts out 4 power sword attacks and the squad drops a freakin' 16 TH/SS attacks, more than 5 normal TH/SS terminators! Not to mention feel no pain, the CML, fearless and the standard company banner effects combined with Ld 10 from Belials Rites of Battle to make any non fearless units in 12" essentially fearless! This delivers and arse whoopin' to nearly any unit in the game, whether dedicated assault or not.

[EPK]

Not to mention feel no pain

 

How could we forget that! Yes, the FNP has made that squad that much better against small arms fire. We all roll ones (sometimes a few in a row, lol), it's nice to have another 4+ chance.

[Xyon]

I do love the feel no pain, in the last game I played, it pretty much stopped my opponent from even trying to shooot at my unit, despite that, I still took two wounds on the unit, both of which failed armor save and FNP save... but in theory its good! :lol:

 

Edit:

and about the speeders again, thats another thing I dont much like, a speeder attached to the bike unit, it has no options. Personally I'd like to see each bike squad you take allow you to break one speeder off from a speeder squad to act as an independent unit, and I highly doubt its 100 pts because its scoring, its 100 pts because thats what they thought was a good price at the time, otherwise it'd be cheaper in the support squad.

[shabbadoo]

Read page 27 of the codex. When deployed, the Attack Bike and Land speeder are never a part of the bike unit, and operate as independent scoring units of 1 model as soon as they are deployed. The only thing which actually Combat Squads is the 6-man bike squad, which may be broken down into two 3-bike units.

 

As to the OP, I had already included Typhoons and Cyclones in my Dual-wing army, mainly as the bane of the army is a lack of long range anti-mech firepower. Now my army functions just that much better.

[ValourousHeart]

@ Xyon,

 

How come I can't shake the feeling that even if we did get HB/AC speeders for 10 points less, you still wouldn't take them?

 

I simply mention that it is scoring, because that adds a lot of value to the unit, and for whatever reason that little ability is always overlooked when people talk trash about the unit.

 

Is the point I am trying to make that a single scoring speeder wins my games? NO.

My point is that at 1k 14-16 out of 17 models are scoring and at 2.5k 32/40 or 40/44 are scoring depending on my list, which means that in objective mission (2/3 games) you have to table me to stop me from winning or drawing the game.

[Xyon]

@ Xyon,

 

How come I can't shake the feeling that even if we did get HB/AC speeders for 10 points less, you still wouldn't take them?

 

Maybe because you're a poor judge of character :) :P ;)

 

I generally like ravenwing speeders and bikes as much as my deathwing, just generally not happy with the options available for our speeders, I'd keep using assault cannons even if they went back to 3 shots no rending.

[ValourousHeart]

So just how many do you take in attack squadrons?

 

My appologies if I offended you, my experience is that in general RW players tend to use small bike squads and very few speeders (topping out usually at 3 maybe 4). And certainly not going for any thing close to 2 speeders for every 6 bikes or even more speeder heavy.

 

I am certainly not a bad judge of character, I just presumed that you fit in with 90% of the players who share your opinion, who at there own admission don't use many speeders, because they preceeve them to be weak.

 

But since you are the anomaly, why do you persist in using units that you lack faith in?

One is not stupid to assume that the typical player would play to their own strengths, are they?

So why do you choose the units that you do use?

[Bartali]

I utterly detest lists I see where whole armies are TH/SS though, so unoriginal and without thought.

 

*Sigh* I run all TH/SS.

 

Funnily enough I see more lists on here with mixed squads than all TH/SS. Believe me it takes a bit of work and yes, thought, to get them to work. Without serious anti-infantry firepower elsewhere in the list they're easily tabled by horde lists.

 

Re the original post -

The Faq has changed my list massively (previously shooty AssCan Terminators with Land Raider Crusaders). I'm now foot TH/SS Terminators with CMLs, Typhoon Speeders and Whirlwinds (never thought I'd ever take these).

I've never played a list before that has such good ranged shooting, while still being able to punch face in assault

[Xyon]

I must admit, it has been a long time since I have played my ravenwing. And I would probably use more speeders if there was more variety available within the support squad, only being able to take one tornado and one typhoon, plus 1-3 regular speeders is not to my cup of tea as it were.

 

I'd usually run 3 full bike squads with attack bikes, and my personal preference would be to run a couple squads of 2 speeders, and even though I disagree with the fluff reasons for it (and the lack of versatility in the option) run a few speeders who came attached with the bike squads (because I do understand the versatility of having more scoring units). So it would be something like.. 1 motr (bike or speeder), 18 bikes, 3 attack bikes, 6 speeders (2 tornado), and 25 pts left in a 1500 pts list so I could take some upgrades on bikes or maybe take 2 typhoons

 

Reasons why I take speeders 1) I hum 'flight of the Valkyries" when I see a bunch of speeders move into position to wipe a unit off the board, like apoc now 2) I like how the models look 3) I like the theme of the ravenwing being bikes and speeders and am used to the master being in a speeder, i also figure he shouldn't be the only speeder on the board.

 

So you could say I like the idea of speeders, even if I don't like how they're implemented in our dex, I do kinda like how they're pointed out and given more options in the main dex.

[littlbitz]

I find that the using the new and improved Power of the Machine Spirit on my Land Raiders has been a great boon.

 

Firing at a different target, and with the improved ballistic skill has been great.

[krewl]

I utterly detest lists I see where whole armies are TH/SS though, so unoriginal and without thought.

 

*Sigh* I run all TH/SS.

<<SNIP>>

The Faq has changed my list massively (previously shooty AssCan Terminators with Land Raider Crusaders). I'm now foot TH/SS Terminators with CMLs, Typhoon Speeders and Whirlwinds (never thought I'd ever take these).

You sir are a powergamer and a bandwagonner. I suggest you vacate the premesis immediately!

(I Kid, I kid..., really.. I didn't mean it... now please stop hitting me ^_^ )

 

I currently advocate the ful TH&SS command squad and 2 TH&SS in the other squads like you mentioned, but I would love to see a list that you play Bartali as I am alaways open to new idea's. I have toyed with 2 whirlies in my list myself but have not yet had the chance to playtest them. (If you wish PM the lists so that we do not disrupt the topic further.)

 

@1700 I'd play 2 speeders, 5 DW squads and 2 whirlies.

2 pie plates and 14 missiles should be able to de-horde a horde quite well, but I would think small leftovers from the templating could be your bane as you do not want to waste templates on them because templates offer reduced damage or even whole misfires. Thats where I usually use the bolter shots.

 

So on topic;

AC's out, CML's in. Twin claws out, more TH&SS in.

Speeders now cost 75 points and in my case have a MM and a typhoon launcher.

 

I guess the players are still learning the new balance and how to play with the new toys, but the new setup means there is no longer a default squad for deathwing, but more a role based on the range I want them to operate on.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Well this has been interesting :D

 

I had actually forgotten about the restriction on the Speeder squadron. That is a frustration, I am sure!

In a Templar list, the Typhoons give us long range anti infantry fire [after transports are dealt with] and so fill a big hole in our repertoire.

 

As you guys can already take Whirlwinds, that might not have been so revolutionary for you. And you don't get to squadron the Typhoons, so less 'wow' factor there.

 

+++

 

As for the Storm shields, I think they will make Lash+Oblitz less terrifying for the DW.

TH SS was a bit beige for us and only really used in our Assault Terms so that vehicles could be popped. Now they actually can stop ap1-2 shooting :D

Whilst I am not complaining about Templar Terminators [taking tank hunters on the Tactical squad with 2 CML is very shooty and furious charge on the Assault squad is deadly] I guess you guys never really needed the TH SS combo as you could take power fists and chain fists alongside the lightning claws.

Now the TH SS has something to offer over the Storm bolter! :P

 

+++

 

Power of the machine spirit.

I guess being able to haul 12", pop smoke and fire the MM at bs4 is powerful. The Crusader can unleash AI firing on one squad and then MM some armour too.

That makes me wonder about the Vindicator. We can put PotMS on them still.

A cruising Vindi has less to fear from assault, for one thing....

 

Hmmm.

[krewl]

No poping smoke and shooting, read the FAQ it explicitly forbids it.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

No poping smoke and shooting, read the FAQ it explicitly forbids it.

 

Cool.

 

Thanks for the catch.

 

Which means I was right in the Rules forum, pre-FAQ. Muahahahaha! :P

 

Well not really, but I'll pretend that is true anyway ^_^