Expanding my current list

[Captain Denaro]

I have been using this list (pretty much) over the last few games and think that I've finally found my preferred playing style within C:SM. Basically it's an essentially mobile reactive style with no complex battle plan. I simply see what's in front of me and react to eliminate the threat. I've never been one for thinking too far ahead, so this suits me well (at present anyway)

 

I've posted my current list below. What I want is to add on two 250 point blocks to be used in my local club league over the next 2 months.

 

HQ:

Khan on Moondrakken

Librarian with Machine Curse and Vortex

 

TROOPS:

Tactical squad x 10 with plasma gun, multi-melta, combi-plasma, melta-bombs & Razorback with Heavy bolters, Storm Bolter and Hunter-killer

Scout squad x 10 with Heavy bolter and Melta-bombs

Bike squad x 8 with plasma gun, melta gun, power weapon, melta-bombs & Attack Bike with Multi-melta

 

FAST ATTACK:

Typhoon x 2, both with Heavy Bolters

Landspeeder x 1 with Heavy Flamer and Multi-melta

 

SUPPORT:

Vindicator woth dozer blades

Predator with Autocannon, Heavy bolters, Storm bolter and Hunter-killer.

 

Instinct would have me add Sternguards next, either 5/6 in a Razorback or more in a Rhino. However, I have the overwhelming feeling that I should really add another Tactical squad with the Sternies added in the next block. Another option I'm toying with is a 4 plasma gun Command squad?

 

What do you all advise? Also, how should I change the overall list - I was thinking of adding my biker Chaplain and possibly splitting the bike squad into two (either combat squading or moving half into Fast Attack). The current Tac squad will be moved into a Rhino, saving a few points there and the Predator can lose the SB and HKM, saving another few points. Would Telion be an option for the scouts?

[thade]

Just FYI, you should drop the points values from your post (especially the points values at the end) as we're forbidden from listing points values with any specificity on this site.

 

Telion is fun but very situational. He's got a good chance at popping power fists/klaws (or at least putting a wound on them) buried in units for you pre-assault, but not a perfect chance. His BS is nice for a Scout with a ML or the Hellfire-loaded Heavy Bolter, for sure. *Very* nice.

 

Sternguard I love but I admit that six feels too few for me. I'd like to try increasing the number to seven or eight. Anyway, six is effective, just usually falls one or two wounds short of dropping Demon Princes (and in one case the Deceiver) in a single volley: I suspect/hope an additional sternguard or two will change that. I take two combi-meltas with the sternguard because it lets them reliably open up one transport/land raider so something else in my army can eat it.

 

Chaplains are really fun for any assault team: helps them hit very hard.

 

Command squads loaded down with plasma are nice too; definitely worth a try. They are as anti-marine terminator as it gets, and even have a fair shot at popping Rhinos.

[Hellios]

I would say try and think about your games... what units have do you feel have done really well which ones didn't do as well. Have you found any enemy units hard to kill and if you have faced similiar units more than once did you have difficulty each time.

 

For example if you've had a bit of trouble popping enemy armour but your forces have been melting infantry then you need more anti-tank? Do you have any views on this? Has everything been equally as tough or easy?

[Br0ther Rafen]

Could give us an example on what armies you regularily verse? Because some armies might wipe the floor with you with this list, and others might not.

Anyway, if you have an extra 250 points to spend, then I would add in a couple of Speeders and some upgrades for your other guys. This way, you can take on more threats in quickly, even long range threats like artilery.

I personly feel that a minimum of 2x Tactical Squads are always good for any list. But your choice.

[Captain Denaro]

Thade - thanks for the advice re points costing.

 

I've looked at the list and can't really see any one unit that's under performed. Its still a relatively new list with 3 games under it's belt. In these games it did struggle against hordes a bit but had no real issues against Armour (IG) or heavily armoured infantry (Necrons). So anti-horde could actually be the way forward (4 x HB Devastator squad perhaps?).

 

My games club seems to have a huge variety of players - Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Necron, Chaos, Guard, C:SM and I think Tau also. So I am really looking for an all-comers list to some extent but want to keep to the general theme above.

 

The bikes especially have been magnificent and I have another Land Speeder with Assault cannon and HB I could add as i like to keep as WYSIWYG as possible.

 

I think I'm moving towards the second Tac squad and Speeder unless someone can convince me otherwise and add the Sternies or Command squad next.

[Hellios]

Thade - thanks for the advice re points costing.

 

I've looked at the list and can't really see any one unit that's under performed. Its still a relatively new list with 3 games under it's belt. In these games it did struggle against hordes a bit but had no real issues against Armour (IG) or heavily armoured infantry (Necrons). So anti-horde could actually be the way forward (4 x HB Devastator squad perhaps?).

 

My games club seems to have a huge variety of players - Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Necron, Chaos, Guard, C:SM and I think Tau also. So I am really looking for an all-comers list to some extent but want to keep to the general theme above.

 

The bikes especially have been magnificent and I have another Land Speeder with Assault cannon and HB I could add as i like to keep as WYSIWYG as possible.

 

I think I'm moving towards the second Tac squad and Speeder unless someone can convince me otherwise and add the Sternies or Command squad next.

 

If you think you need more horde killing power then more bolters and boots on the ground never hurt and as for land speeder... heavy bolters and flamers are good for killing gribble and assault cannons and typhoon launchers can deal with gribble and tanks.

[DarkGuard]

I think I'm moving towards the second Tac squad and Speeder unless someone can convince me otherwise and add the Sternies or Command squad next.

 

Step forth DarkGuard....

 

I like the list, I don't like bikes, but then I like them in lists, confusing? I just don't like the models, which is why I won't use them, I can't paint them as fast as normal Marines and everything gets in the way and uh.

 

Anyway, the first list looks solid, lots of mobility and staying power, you've got anti-armour covered, and you've got anti-infantry covered. One question though, Razorback for the Tactical squad? You've got long-ranged firepower with the Scouts, they can sit on objectives, two if you want. With that Tact squad set up they really benefit from a Rhino and firing the plasma gun and multi-melta out the top hatch.

 

Of course, where would the Libby go? Step forth Sternguard/Command Squad! I've played with both of these, and personally I prefer Sternguard, although I do love the look of a combat Command squad, unfortunately I don't use them. Anyway. There are plenty of Sternguard threads at the moment and we don't need another, so have a check on them for a look. I will say Sternguard will be good for dealing with anything, give them combi-meltas and a heavy flamer and doubly so. That heavy flamer and their special ammo will certainly sort out infantry, and combi-meltas are a good back up for when your fast melta fails.

 

If you want to take out elite units like Terminators and Seer Councils then a quad plasma Command squad will certainly suffice, especially alongside that Vindicator. Put them in a Razorback or Rhino (Razorback w/ las plas works well with their theme), and use them to counter those elite units and any MCs you may find. 8 plasma shots (10 with the las plas turret) will ruin anyone's day, and FnP makes them durable. To help them out consider giving the Libby Null Zone, works perfectly.

 

Of course, I wouldn't look past more long-ranged firepower, another pair of Typhoons or a Rifleman could be handy for transports, as could another MM/HF Speeder. I'm sure you'll find something that works best with your list, but I will say I don't think you need anymore scoring units. If you want Tacticals, at least consider investing a few more points to make them Sternguard and better at their job.

 

EDIT: I've also realised why I really like this list. None of your units are spammed. I use two identical Tactical squads, two Riflemans, two Vindys, two MM/HF Speeders, sort of a redundancy thing. But you've got redundancy and covered all bases while having different units, I like that, hope you keep it up (if it was intentional). :cuss

[Luis_CC]

I think that the main problem in your list is the lack of assaulting power. If you intend to play tourneys you will need a unit to fit this role. I use assault terminators in a LR Redentor (1LC +4TH/SS), and they have never let me down.

 

Another option could be a bike command squad with 2 or 3 SS and some CC weapons, but I may be too point expensive.

[DarkGuard]

I think that the main problem in your list is the lack of assaulting power. If you intend to play tourneys you will need a unit to fit this role. I use assault terminators in a LR Redentor (1LC +4TH/SS), and they have never let me down.

 

Another option could be a bike command squad with 2 or 3 SS and some CC weapons, but I may be too point expensive.

 

I regularly play without any dedicated assault unit, even in tournies. OK, I don't play the hardcore tournies like GT, but some of the lists at my local GW and the regional tournies can be nasty. The fact is I'm not prepared to pay upwards of 450pts for 6 models, no matter how hard they hit. For those points I can get a lot of Sternguard in a Rhino and a Vindicator, who also have a nasty damage potential, just in shooting. It's all about picking your fights carefully and not letting your units get isolated, especially if there are combat units nearby.

 

I'm not saying that you shouldn't take assault units, it's not a bad idea, but the idea that you need a dedicated assault unit isn't quite on. You can play and win without one, it just requires a bit of thought. Plus, Sternguard aren't that bad in assault anyway, especially if you attach Vulkan or a Captain with relic blade onto them.

[waaanial00]

You dont need a dedicated assault unit, you need counter assault capabilites. For me Sternguard play into this role nicely, they put out a decent amount of shooting and they are capable of lending some significant weight in assault if necessary.

 

You need to be smart about what you engage, though its probably much more rewarding than the mindless application of TH/SS terminators

[Captain Denaro]

I hear great things about Assault termies and have a squad (2 LCs, 3 TH/SS) but can't see beyond their lack of firepower, meaning they pretty much always need a Land Raider transport, which just eats up too many points. I've also always been completely underwhelmed by Assault troops - I have one squad of jump packers and one that travel in a Drop pod. When I've used them recently I've found they've under performed and I still have vivid memories of my Tactical squad destroying a Blood Angels jump Assault squad in close combat. Good times ;-)

 

My bike squad led by Khan with Furious Charge and Hit and Run are my main (only) close combat squad. Previously I've under used them, only taking 3 or 4 bikes with the Attack bike but at present I don't leave the house (or Strike Cruiser) with less than 8 bikes plus the Attack bike. I suppose that's my cap-tipping towards redundancy (along with the Typhoons but that's less redundanvy and more awesome firepower) - I've read plenty of great things about it but the idea doesn't wear with me, especially in smaller forces where I try and cover as many threats as possible and fear having too specialised a force.

 

You've swayed me back towards the Sternies/Command squad Darkguard and thanks for the compliment - to be honest the list was largely compiled on the B&C forums possibly with contriubtions from your good self. The Tactical squad were only put into the Razorback for a specific reason and will be moving back into their Rhino from my next game onwards.

 

The Sternies I have to choose from 2x plasma guns, 2x combi-flamer, 3x combi-plasma/melta and 3x normal chaps. They've probably end up in the vanilla Razorback with the Librarian who ended up with the Tactical squad in the current list, as I'd nowhere else to put him.

 

I still like the idea of 8 plasma shots with FNP though...

[bystrom]

To continue on the same question-theme:

 

1. How has the vortex worked for you? I can't quite see how you would use a 12" heavy weapon on a normal infantryman. I would think a different power would be of more use. Or?

 

2. What normal weaponry does the scouts have?

 

Sternguard doesn't seem like a bad idea, they add some counter-attack, some specialist combi-weapons and can kill infantry decently. They're good substitutes to tacticals, as you've said you want more anti-infantry. Have you considered more bikes? They're also a bit expensive like the sternguard and are played differently, but they're also decent at shooting infantry and scoring with your Khan.

[Captain Denaro]

Bystrom - youve hit on 2 things that have perturbed me slightly. I only added the Librarian in my last game and he crewed with the Tac squad, sitting back and waiting for the enemy to come to them. This didn't work too well, as my opponent had no vehicles whatsoever so Machine Curse was useless. I git one shot in with Vortex which did ok, then in my next turn my opponent wiped out my whole squad bar 1 and the Libbie with basic gauss weapons when I spectacularly failed pretty much every save they were asked to take. Pretty impressive dice from me ;-) The Libbie was then just meat, so i didn't really get a fair representation if his abilities.

 

I'm very open to changing his powers or ditching him altogether for someone (or something else).

 

The scouts have been armed with 5 sniper rifles, 3 CCW and 2 shotguns; idea being to either combat squad or sit back on a home objective and have a bit of counter-charge steel. Agan I'm open to suggestions.

[DarkGuard]

About the Libby, I think you just had the wrong powers. A Librarian should almost always have Null Zone, and then either a shooting power or perhaps Gate if you're not inclined. Avenger is the shooting power of choice for a power armoured Libby, and is much better than Smite. Sure Smite has 4 shots and AP2, but it's still only S4 and needs a psychic test and then to hit rolls, too many dice rolls for my liking. Avenger operates at a similar range, auto hits, can hit more than 4 models, is easier to wound with, and ignores cover and nearly all armour saves. Much, much better IMO.

 

If putting him in Terminator armour then VoD is better for relentless and the high powered shot, but you're not so we won't worry too much about that.

 

Just a word on the Machine Curse power, I play a mechanised list, and so when I played my brother yesterday with it he opted to tailor his Libby's powers to my list, rather than using the usual Null Zone/VoD. Instead, he had Machine Curse and Avenger, as I don't have invulnerable saves, and I don't use Terminators. In the end, tailoring hit him hard, I hooded his Machine Curse and then his Avenger was out of range of my Marines, while VoD would have been in range. Silly boy.

 

About the Scouts, IMO a good objective holder squad is just 5 guys with snipers, cloaks and maybe a heavy bolter. Comes in at 100pts tops, can go to ground to get a 2+ save, and doesn't tie up too many points into a unit that will only be holding objectives.

 

Really, other than that I think you're going to a good place with the list, best of luck. Just out of interest, have considered adding normal Terminators? Not as good at shooting as Sternguard, but have more deployment options and can take some heavy weaponry and still fire them. Plus they have power fists so they're not too shabby in combat.

[Luis_CC]

I regularly play without any dedicated assault unit, even in tournies. OK, I don't play the hardcore tournies like GT, but some of the lists at my local GW and the regional tournies can be nasty. The fact is I'm not prepared to pay upwards of 450pts for 6 models, no matter how hard they hit. For those points I can get a lot of Sternguard in a Rhino and a Vindicator, who also have a nasty damage potential, just in shooting. It's all about picking your fights carefully and not letting your units get isolated, especially if there are combat units nearby.

 

I'm not saying that you shouldn't take assault units, it's not a bad idea, but the idea that you need a dedicated assault unit isn't quite on. You can play and win without one, it just requires a bit of thought. Plus, Sternguard aren't that bad in assault anyway, especially if you attach Vulkan or a Captain with relic blade onto them.

 

Probably you are a better player than me. But experience tells me, as I always play in tourneys with a 10sternguard squad (360p), assault termies transported by a LRR and a vindicator, that the key about the termies+LRR combo is not its assault power but their range of assault threaten. I mean: turn 1: 30cm and pop smoke, turn2: 30cm of LRR movement, 5cm of going down the LRR, 4cm of the miniature base and 15cm of assault range are 59cm of full range.

 

This fact determines the other player behaviour during all and every game more than any other Space Marine unit. Even more than a vindi, which won´t be able to shoot more than half of the turns by glancing hits.

 

Sternguard are like the dessert in a meal, delicious, expensive and finished before you notice. Their damaging potential is brutal (I often destroy over 300points in turn1), but they die as any tactical space marine so they requiere an extremely careful use. Even with 2attacks per miniature, they are not a good counter assault unit, because they can only take one miniature with special CC weapons (and, if you add an HQ character, as I always do, their cost is simply prohibitive) and because their special bolters are not assault weapons.

 

In fact, I recommend you to play a single game with the assault termies + LRR (better than the crusader, which is a tank that I never like playing with).

Some people will tell you that they lack of shooting potential, it is true, but an SS is much better than a storm bolter.

[DarkGuard]

I regularly play without any dedicated assault unit, even in tournies. OK, I don't play the hardcore tournies like GT, but some of the lists at my local GW and the regional tournies can be nasty. The fact is I'm not prepared to pay upwards of 450pts for 6 models, no matter how hard they hit. For those points I can get a lot of Sternguard in a Rhino and a Vindicator, who also have a nasty damage potential, just in shooting. It's all about picking your fights carefully and not letting your units get isolated, especially if there are combat units nearby.

 

I'm not saying that you shouldn't take assault units, it's not a bad idea, but the idea that you need a dedicated assault unit isn't quite on. You can play and win without one, it just requires a bit of thought. Plus, Sternguard aren't that bad in assault anyway, especially if you attach Vulkan or a Captain with relic blade onto them.

 

Probably you are a better player than me. But experience tells me, as I always play in tourneys with a 10sternguard squad (360p), assault termies transported by a LRR and a vindicator, that the key about the termies+LRR combo is not its assault power but their range of assault threaten. I mean: turn 1: 30cm and pop smoke, turn2: 30cm of LRR movement, 5cm of going down the LRR, 4cm of the miniature base and 15cm of assault range are 59cm of full range.

 

This fact determines the other player behaviour during all and every game more than any other Space Marine unit. Even more than a vindi, which won´t be able to shoot more than half of the turns by glancing hits.

 

Sternguard are like the dessert in a meal, delicious, expensive and finished before you notice. Their damaging potential is brutal (I often destroy over 300points in turn1), but they die as any tactical space marine so they requiere an extremely careful use. Even with 2attacks per miniature, they are not a good counter assault unit, because they can only take one miniature with special CC weapons (and, if you add an HQ character, as I always do, their cost is simply prohibitive) and because their special bolters are not assault weapons.

 

In fact, I recommend you to play a single game with the assault termies + LRR (better than the crusader, which is a tank that I never like playing with).

Some people will tell you that they lack of shooting potential, it is true, but an SS is much better than a storm bolter.

 

I'm not saying I'm a better player than you. I may say that I'm a better player with my list, just like you're probably a better player with your list. I only just realised how tailored my list was to me when I swapped it with my friend for a game. His list was quite easy to use, rush his Razorbacks forward under covering firepower (Blood Angel Razorspam), but he struggled to pull off my list as successfully as I could, and I think the chief reason is that he's used to having a combat unit, whereas I forced myself to adapt and get by without one.

 

But am I a better player than you? Probably not, by the sounds of it you go to proper tournaments while I only do friendly store ones and regional ones.

 

Just so you know, I have played a few games with Hammernators and an LRR. First game it got blown up first turn by a lascannon, second it pretty much slaughtered everything in my brother's army before the Terminators got out. I remember using it in a 2000pts game with a couple of Vindys in support though. I had Hammernators, my relic blade, hellfire round Captain and my Null Zone Libby. Went up again my opponent's similar unit that had a 3:2 ratio of Terminators and Lysander, and won thanks to Null Zone. That unit then knocked off a couple of scoring units and soaked up a lot of firepower, and both survived the match. However, the reason I don't use it often is that truth be told, I find it quite dull at times. Point and click basically. And I prefer Sternguard.

 

However, the real reason is fluff. My Chapter's fluff doesn't have Terminators and LRRs randomly attached to the Battle Companies, they are completely separate organisations, and I play a 3rd Company list. That and it's harder to fit a LRR into my case than one Rhino ;).

 

But yeah, Hammernators and LRR are good, they have to be because they are used so much. Are they necessary? No. I find Rhinos and Sternguard to go a decent job at protecting my units, that and overwhelming firepower. I do thank you for me letting me know about the good results you have with Hammernators, LRRs, Sternguard and Vindys in the same list, as I'm contemplating doing something similar for an upcoming regional tournament, if the rumours are correct and we have 2000pts.

 

Bascially, all I wanted to say in my first post is that while Hammernators are good, they aren't a must include, and army lists can get by without them. I wasn't trying to imply that Sternguard were as good at assault, or that I was a better play, just that there are more options than Hammernators.

[Luis_CC]

I'm not saying I'm a better player than you. I may say that I'm a better player with my list, just like you're probably a better player with your list. I only just realised how tailored my list was to me when I swapped it with my friend for a game. His list was quite easy to use, rush his Razorbacks forward under covering firepower (Blood Angel Razorspam), but he struggled to pull off my list as successfully as I could, and I think the chief reason is that he's used to having a combat unit, whereas I forced myself to adapt and get by without one.

 

But am I a better player than you? Probably not, by the sounds of it you go to proper tournaments while I only do friendly store ones and regional ones.

 

Just so you know, I have played a few games with Hammernators and an LRR. First game it got blown up first turn by a lascannon, second it pretty much slaughtered everything in my brother's army before the Terminators got out. I remember using it in a 2000pts game with a couple of Vindys in support though. I had Hammernators, my relic blade, hellfire round Captain and my Null Zone Libby. Went up again my opponent's similar unit that had a 3:2 ratio of Terminators and Lysander, and won thanks to Null Zone. That unit then knocked off a couple of scoring units and soaked up a lot of firepower, and both survived the match. However, the reason I don't use it often is that truth be told, I find it quite dull at times. Point and click basically. And I prefer Sternguard.

 

However, the real reason is fluff. My Chapter's fluff doesn't have Terminators and LRRs randomly attached to the Battle Companies, they are completely separate organisations, and I play a 3rd Company list. That and it's harder to fit a LRR into my case than one Rhino :D.

 

But yeah, Hammernators and LRR are good, they have to be because they are used so much. Are they necessary? No. I find Rhinos and Sternguard to go a decent job at protecting my units, that and overwhelming firepower. I do thank you for me letting me know about the good results you have with Hammernators, LRRs, Sternguard and Vindys in the same list, as I'm contemplating doing something similar for an upcoming regional tournament, if the rumours are correct and we have 2000pts.

 

Bascially, all I wanted to say in my first post is that while Hammernators are good, they aren't a must include, and army lists can get by without them. I wasn't trying to imply that Sternguard were as good at assault, or that I was a better play, just that there are more options than Hammernators.

 

When I said that you are a better player than me, I had no second intention. I am sure that you are a better player, because I have not played a competitive battle since December (and my record is more or less 33% victories, 33% draws and 33% defeats :D. )

 

It is true that LRR+Hammernators are autoplay, but I quite like that, because, as I include some hard to use units (scout bikes, sternguard) and many not so easy to play units (CCW+BP scouts, sniper scouts with telion, LS), I need to simplify my tactical options somehow.

 

The fact with that combo is that you need to put a lot of pressure on the other player since turn1 (I do it with drop pod sternguard, the vindi, turboboosting LS and scout bikes, and, sometimes with scout infiltrating support). The problem is that there are too many eggs in one basket (I still remember how once, in turn1, a scout ML managed to inmobilize my LRR full of termies...and the chaplain).

 

On the other hand, sternguard is so coooooool.

[DarkGuard]

Well, thanks :D.

 

I'm really confused right now sorry, you haven't even seen me play :D. lol

 

Yeah, Sternguard are awesome, I used robed models for them, I do love them a lot. And cheers for the tips on how to use that trio of units. I don't normally Pod my Sternguard in, but I'm sure a fast moving Rhino would still work well. I can see them working well as a sort of shoot the thing being assaulted, and then assault and mop up with Terminators. Something like that. For example, the Vindy draws fire, the Sternguard hold back the Gaunts and the Hammernators go after the Hive Tyrant/Tervigon/Warriors. That sort of thing. But this is kind of off topic.

 

On topic, both Hammernators and Sternguard are viable as a counter attack unit, but in the role of counter assault Hammernators win hands down. It depends on what you want in your list, what your opponents take etc.