Plague Marines -vs- Chaos Space Marines w/MoN

[Stillgate]

According to the Army Builder, the CSM w/MoN are cheaper and come with a higher Initiative. They get the +1(T)... But no FNP or Blight Grenades...

 

 

is the extra points worth it?

 

 

-One another note, there is no more bonuses for having a full dedicated legion army anymore is there?

 

So i can field 2 troops of full Khorne Berzerkers with 2 Troops of Slaanesh Noise Marines for a balanced attack right? Or does my HQ have to be Undivided?

[Nehekhare]

is the extra points worth it?

 

yes. absolutely.

 

(also: your +1T is not lost if the standart bearer is killed, and you can take 2 special weapons even if not 10 man strong)

 

 

-One another note, there is no more bonuses for having a full dedicated legion army anymore is there?

 

there is, if you consider fluff or awesomeness a bonus. otherwise not so much.

 

So i can field 2 troops of full Khorne Berzerkers with 2 Troops of Slaanesh Noise Marines for a balanced attack right? Or does my HQ have to be Undivided?

 

yes, we can! although I would advise for plague marines and berzerkers. and 1000sons...because they count as robots and robots are awesome. not much else to say.

[Xeonic]

If you take MoN on standard CSM you lose out on a few things. Ability to take specials under 10 men, Fearless, Blight Grenades, FnP, and compared to chaos glory at 1/5th the cost, LD rerolls.

Comparing 10 CSM(2x melta, MoN, powerfist champ for 260) to 7 Plague marines(2x melta, fistychamp for 221), which incidentally is nurgle's favored number, you have 3 more wounds, 3 more bolters, an icon that can die, and a distinct lack of above benefits, while costing almost 40 pts more(almost enough to add two more plague marines).

 

IMO, plague Marines are just plain more efficient than CSM with MoN and bring more to the table for similar points. Now comparing them to CSM with chaos glory is another story...

 

EDIT: Though I thought I'd mention the I3 thing. Plague marine I3 only matters vs I4 MEQ with power weapons, mainly sang guard, vanguard, C:SM honor guard, LC termies ect... Basically it would be bad in any case to be charged by any of these as they'd deny you FNP and your armor save. Admittedly defensive grenades go a ways towards mitigating damage but when you get charged by a unit of reroll to wound, reroll to hit BT termies(assuming they didn't take the furious charge vet skill...) it will wipe the floor no matter who you are. Vs a normal squad they're either going to go first anyways(eldar, Deldar, marine ICs), or at I4 with few or no SCCW attacks(most other meq), or be a powerfist or thunderhammer at I1.

 

What I'm trying to say is that in most cases it won't matter, as any of this class of unit would decimate a MEQ troops choice no matter what it was, and at the very least plague marines have defensive grenades and T5 to help protect them. The main difference is that some of your guys won't get to swing back, assuming any survive the initial charge.

[chillin]

PM's, no question about it, not even close.

[Minsc]

If 10 man strong (CSM vs PM), you're paying 30 pts (or 3 pts/modell if you prefer) for:

 

-1 I (which rarely matters)

 

+FnP

+Defensive Grenades

+No risk of getting the Iconbearer killed

+1 Ld (which rarely matters)

+Fearless

 

I'd say it's pretty safe to say that Plague Marines are well worth the extra 3 pts/modell! :P

 

It's the same deal with combat CSM with IoKhorne vs Khorne Berzerkers, where you pay ~3 pts/modell for Furious Charge, +1 WS, +1 LD, No risk of getting the Iconbearer killed, and Fearless.

[the jeske]

only pms are not extra 3 pts per model because they are not run in 10 man squads and csm have to be run at 10 man becauser otherwise they dont get their second special. they are cheaper , more resilient , they kill less stuff because they have fewer A and bolters , but that is why everyone plays a pm/zerker combo.

[Brother Nihm]

PM's, no question about it, not even close.

This.

[Nehekhare]

another thing maybe: pms get a teleport homer (icon) for 5 pts.

[Abyssel]

I run nothing but 7 man PM squads in Rhino's..

 

7 man unit w/ 2 melta's,

 

7 man unit w/ 2 flamers / champ fist

 

7 man unit w/ 2 plasma guns / champ fist

 

2 melta squad is for popping tanks

 

flamers are for grunts, fist is for cleanup

 

and plasma guns are still experimental, my reasoning behind this is for said sang guard/termies...at str 7 ap 2 i need 2's and denies armor saves. get within rapid fire with 2 shooting out of the rhino and i got 4 shots on them, hell even if termies where to try and charge me, if i moved 6" they'd need 4's to hit, say they do pop the rhino? im out, i blaze with plasma fire, and what ever termy is left gets slapped with a fist. go ahead and charge me, you wont get the extra attacks.

 

PM's, while not being the KILL MAIM BURN that zerkies are, are actually good in CC..because they stall it. They deliver the hurt without taking it. very rarely do I lose 1 PM in CC per round vs anything non power wep.

 

For scary things with power weps, I run DP's with MoN. DP flight MoN warptime, I stick with my troops while hiding in cover, and if anything scary wants to come in, DP comes in at them, at Initiative higher than a marines, he strikes fairly quick with str 6, so I need 3's and 2's with rerolls, it ends a CC rather quickly.

 

My flamers have been kind of Sub Par.. they've done well against hordes (IE nids and orks) but against marines and the like, they kind of pale in comparrison.

 

The plasma squad is only good for shooting, never will i charge into assault with them, seeing as sense plas is rapid fire, might as well go all rapid fire.

[Minsc]

only pms are not extra 3 pts per model because they are not run in 10 man squads and csm have to be run at 10

 

Funny how you say this like it's a rule.

f.y.i I quite often use PM's in 10man squads.

[the jeske]

I have seen armies with spawn , possessed and dreads too . Does that mean that those units are/should be used ? no . does it mean they are good ? no again . There is two versions of pm units 7 man and 5 man campers/drive by units [or when you play 1k and try to fit as many oblits and 2xDP in to the list as possible] . 10 man does not make sense . It costs too much and you have to run 3 squads any way . Which means that from the extra 9 [3 squads of 10 . =9 extra dudes] you could buy a 4th unit or more oblits or have have points for DPs. + is something is shoting/out assaulting 7 pms then there is a very good chance then that same will happen to a 10 man squads . And if someon wants more bolters shots or better hth abilty , then he should use zerkers or csm .

[Brother Nihm]

only pms are not extra 3 pts per model because they are not run in 10 man squads and csm have to be run at 10

 

Funny how you say this like it's a rule.

f.y.i I quite often use PM's in 10man squads.

Interesting, in which tournaments and at what point levels?

[Minsc]

Alright, I see that since I'm not a hardcore GTplayer and since I don't play the 'standard' 1750 pts size battles, my opinion doesn't matter.

 

Carry on boys, I'll let you brood in peace.

 

Edit:

and at what point levels?

 

Around 2000-2500.

[chillin]

I think you're misunderstanding Nihm's post Minsc.

[Brother Nihm]

I think you're misunderstanding Nihm's post Minsc.

I think he did. <_<

Or maybe I should have phrased my post differently.

 

I am simply just interested, as this is the first I've heard of 10-man PM Squads being used after the initial years of play-testing and I've never seen 10 man strong PM units work at Tournaments/Clubs.

 

If you would PM me your list, common opponents etc. I would appreciate it. :rolleyes:

[Shas'o R'Vre]

Ok, gonna throw my opinion out here.

 

PM's are run 5/7 Man by most people because they are a very DEFENSIVE troop type. They can take shooting or a charge from pretty much anything that isn't AP3 or a Power Weapon/Fist, and give as good as they get. They therefore cost more so are run in smaller squads, with a similar survivability.

 

Chaos Marines on the other hand work better as an offensive unit, where their I4, more bodies and massed weapons can deal more damage. However, to do this effectively, they need to not run at the slightest sign of defeat.

 

Let me give you an example to illustrate what I mean:

 

You are facing a Space Marine opponent. You destroy a Tactical Squad's Rhino with your Meltaguns, but they do the same in their turn. It is now your turn.

 

With Plague Marines, you are better off Rapid-Firing your Bolters to thin the Tactical Squad down, before they charge you next turn. Your blight grenades and FNP will minimise casualties, allowing you to fight back

 

With CSM, you want to fire your Meltas and Bolt Pistols before a charge, using sheer weight of attacks at I4 to wipe them out.

[Minsc]

Or maybe I should have phrased my post differently

 

Apologies for the outburst, I've been reading alot on Warseer lately so I might have read to deep between the lines of your previous post and taken offense at something that wasn't even there.

 

I used to field PM's in 7man (and the occasional 8man) squads actually, but I found that they simply died to quickly, and with only 4 'regular' PM's, I found that my specialweapons/champion took more wounds via allocation than I could save, so in some games they simply died of, leaving me with a 5 man PM squad with perhaps 1 special weapon and nothing else.

After that I started fielding them in 10 man (either 1x10 or 2x10 depending on points), and with almost twice as many 'regulars', my Champion and specialweapons actually got to live long enough to do something.

 

It should be noted that 2 of my regular opponents play Eldar (doom+bladestorm) and Dark Eldar (lots of splinter shots), so I might have need of more extra bodies than others.

[the jeske]

but at 2500 it doesnt matter chaos run out of good or ok choice at around 2k pts , above that it doesnt matter what kind of a set up someone is using for chaos units as other armies are just plain better optimized .

 

As eldar/DE comment goes I dont understand it . what kind of a set up do they play to force enough saves to make FnP and +3sv+t5 not viable ? they would need 3-4 blade storming guardian units to kill one pm one [and they would have to pop the transport first]. +as too few bodies goes it is true for 7 man squads when faced with power weapon hvy or t/FnP ignoring weapons . but having 10 dudes doesnt help here . When a court of archon/ termi unit etc charges you the pm unit will die , the only difference is that with 7 man set ups you lose fewer models and fewer points [and also fewer special weapons as more units = more 2xspecial] .

 

 

Alright, I see that since I'm not a hardcore GTplayer and since I don't play the 'standard' 1750 pts size battles,

I dont think that 1750 is normal outside of uk and north of europe . europe plays 1500 mostly and us plays 2k+ .

my coment also has nothing to do with tournament meta gaming or team set ups , because rules wise it makes little sense out of a pure gamer perspective to play chaos . DP+oblits does not make the army good enough .

When I say no one plays 10 pms then no one does . You could go through forums around the world and you will see tons of lists runing 7 or 5 man squads and non 10 mans.

[Minsc]

. what kind of a set up do they play to force enough saves to make FnP and +3sv+t5 not viable ?

 

Guided Dire Avengers, Bladestorming a doomed plague marine squad = 5 dead. (happened last weekend.)

I didn't say that 3+/T5 wasn't viable, just that I need extra bodies to prevent my important PM's from dying.

 

When I say no one plays 10 pms then no one does

 

This is where I take offend, because I do play with 10man squads (reasons already stated), and I do classify myself as "someone", not "no one". And for the record, I know more players than myself that use them in 10 man's. (or 9mans with a IC in them.)

[mrtn]

When I say no one plays 10 pms then no one does

 

This is where I take offend, because I do play with 10man squads (reasons already stated), and I do classify myself as "someone", not "no one". And for the record, I know more players than myself that use them in 10 man's. (or 9mans with a IC in them.)

For what it's worth (not a lot, I expect), I do too. Whether that's the best I could do or not I've no idea, but that's beside the point.

 

2>0 :)

[Seahawk]

As said by others, Plague Marines are plain better in every single way than CSM if you're trying to make them both Nurgle.

 

Oh, and I use squads of 10 too. Sooo much better than 7 (except for fluff).