Chapter Master Ignis Domus Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 This is a three-man TWC unit with three storm shields, no lord. She has five attacks and hits on 3's, so that's about 3 hits. She wounds on fives, meaning about one hit. I will most likely save that one hit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223562-playtesting-the-new-rules/page/3/#findComment-2679201 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vutall Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 Hrm, well, you have to figure that the TWC are also getting Neural Shredded before the Callidus charges, so there is potentially a wound or so since they are AP1. Granted, its Str 8 vs Lead 10 (I think?) so needing 6's, but hey, in a game vs tyranids my Callidus from the 3rd edition codex shredded 3 Carnifexes and wounded two. Followed up by a charge it is quite possible that the assassin is going to be alright. Lucky 6+ FNP (Which I believe she would get since in CC nothing is AP1/2), and 4+ invul, she might survive the attacks back. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223562-playtesting-the-new-rules/page/3/#findComment-2679222 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapter Master Ignis Domus Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 Actually, the Callidus wouldn't necessarily be charging. A lot of times, he went for my Long Fangs, as they pose the greatest barrier to his transports getting into assault range and slaughtering me. I don't care how many hunters I have. The Grey Knights always beat me in combat. Which means I lose. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223562-playtesting-the-new-rules/page/3/#findComment-2679225 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordsloth Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 I really dont get the appeal of the callidus. The one in the old dex was way better imho. No more word in your ear, no more assault on deepstrike. 140 or whatever points for d6 ap 2 hits and then most likely getting killed by any army that brings even a smidge of firepower to the table. I'll pass on that thanks. The vindicare has gotten a tremendous boost, all the other ones have gotten the shaft if the current rumoured stats hold. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223562-playtesting-the-new-rules/page/3/#findComment-2679226 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 That. I just had to reread the entry, but she has lost the Assault after appearing. :( Personally, I tihnk she's useless now. Too many points for a few AP2 hits then she'll be killed. No more ignoring Invulnerable Saves, Hit and Run instead of Jump Back, no AWIYE. For her points, I'd rather have 10 (well 9! :D) DCA. Poor girl. Our premier old edition 'sin has been nefed to the bottom of the pile... Hmmm... There's nothing to state she must come nfrom reserve any more, but then you lose out on Polymorphine altogether, and why not use 10 DCA? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223562-playtesting-the-new-rules/page/3/#findComment-2679238 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justcar Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 Hmk17:Long Range: See, the problem with those things is that many other armies, even 4th ed. ones, have many of the same things, excluding the Stormraven. While many DA and BT players won't take Razorbacks(70 points for a Rhino with a gun on top? I think not), they still have Devastator Squads. Those can take many longer ranged weapons, meaning that your psycanons are 12" shorter than the maximum range. Also, your Jokaero Weaponsmiths are quite weak when shot at, and will easily fall to even bolter or frag missile fire with a toughness of 3 and a 5+ invulnerable save, especially when deployed in horde units. This is not to say that they are weak. I actually think they would be better than obliterators, with a cost of 35 compared to the obliterator's 75., meaning you can take about two for every one, hide them in some sort of cover, and blast away. Your Land Raiders suffer from the same problem every other codex has: They are overpriced transports. You can't fit many in an army, and they lack the weaponry to compete with Russes, and will easily fall to meltaguns. Unfortunately, GW seems to have still not noticed this. Once you get into close range, the Psycannons are absolutely devastating, much better than any assault cannon. and after shooting, you can assault and kill almost anything in any army with power weapons on every model and the ability to use the Force Weapon instant death rules. Small Model Count: I have a tendency to play horde marines, taking maximum sized units as often as possible, so this may or may not be good advice. I think the best thing possible would be to use the Deep Striking so common to your units to get in close. While you can't assault for a turn, this does mean you will still be shot at for a smaller number of turns, and can use Psycannons to the best effect. Also, the Jokaero will probably be able to do a lot of damage while your squads are in reserve, especially with the cheap but deadly Lascannons. Ouch. Assassin: I agree, the Vindicare is much preferable, and has been the bane of any army I play, even in the old dex. For a suicide unit, I just don't think the Callidus is capable of earning back the 145 points you spend on her. Sure, you'll probably cause a good amount of damage, but not to a large number of models. Plus, she costs you a Kill Point after that, though this won't affect you in 2/3 of the missions. Lordsloth: Unfortunately, the librarian, awesome though he is, can't be everywhere, and suffers from the same lack of a statline like every other librarian, though he does come with terminator armor. Since I was most often playing against a Crowe army, there were a lot of Purifiers, so the one librarian just wasn't able to be in the right place at the right time, partly due to my lucky roll when busting the Stormraven he was in. Justcar: Your mobile strike squads may or may not be sent to fast attack. We are unfortunately clueless. Also, I am not saying that my list is better. I am saying that these are the only weaknesses I have found from playing them. Overall, this is a very powerful codex, capable of eating up pretty much anything in assault. I expect this to change up the metagame quite a bit, much more so than Dark Eldar. My apologies if you feel that I have insulted you. I apologize, it is often difficult to judge intent on the internet. On SSGKs, even if they get moved to fast attack, our Grand Masters can make some of them scoring. I think they will end up being extremely useful in (almost) any situation. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223562-playtesting-the-new-rules/page/3/#findComment-2679239 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brom MKIV Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 Callidus is still very good. It is a d6 str4 ap2 followed by a possible moral check. Then place her without scatter. Then a str 4 ap1 template (ld 8 is most common ld) followed by another possible moral check. Against shooting she has 4++ and stealth and against charges she will most likely strike first with an ID causing weapon. She will often die but can wreck havoc as good as a wolf scout unit can, which is to say she is good. Just use her as a scalpel and not a sledge. Edit: using her against TWC is a good sledge example :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223562-playtesting-the-new-rules/page/3/#findComment-2679242 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 I think the best thing possible would be to use the Deep Striking so common to your units to get in close. To be honest, I'm planning on dropping Transports (maybe going for cheap 45 points Razorback spam), and using a combination of GMs to give Scoring (if needed), but more importantly Scout. Scouting Strike Squads, DreadKnights and ever Terminators, coupled with a non scatter DSing First turn Mordrak with 10 Ghost Knights and 2 Psycannons, will mean I'm close on my opponent form turn 1. I don't tihnk I'll need Transports. And if I need quick movement, I've got a 30" 'shunt' to play with. Edit: Problem with the Cally is you have to plce within 3" of the hit unit. If you could place her anywhere, you could make her much more survivable. But if you hit any unit worth hitting when she appears, you're leaving her in the open for retaliation next turn. And no one is going to charge her. Just shoot her to bits. 2W, T4 and 4++ Save is easy to eat through. Going to ground isn't ever going to help, so the only use Stealth will get is if you're able to place her in cover, and then you *might* get a 3+ Cover out of it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223562-playtesting-the-new-rules/page/3/#findComment-2679243 Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeyking Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 I really dont get the appeal of the callidus. The one in the old dex was way better imho. No more word in your ear, no more assault on deepstrike. 140 or whatever points for d6 ap 2 hits and then most likely getting killed by any army that brings even a smidge of firepower to the table. I'll pass on that thanks. The vindicare has gotten a tremendous boost, all the other ones have gotten the shaft if the current rumoured stats hold. Her appeal is she can wipe out a command/longfang/devestator squad on arrival, with only a bit of luck. d6 s4 ap2 hits on arrival, followed by an ap1 template that will wound on a 4+ on most marines (avg LD is 8, including TWC). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223562-playtesting-the-new-rules/page/3/#findComment-2679259 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordsloth Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 Going to ground isn't ever going to help, so the only use Stealth will get is if you're able to place her in cover, and then you *might* get a 3+ Cover out of it. I agree. And even if you do get her in that cover, she's still a two wound marine to small arms fire. The equivalent of one unit of tacs, necron warriors, fire warriors, whatever rapidfiring the assassin and that's all she wrote. So you get one turn of shooting with some extra hits in advance and then she more than likely dies. Im not saying its useless, im just saying that its expensive for what you get. The old one was also expensive but at least she was somewhat more survivable as you could imediately get her stuck in in cc. That and before she did anything she has already used a word in your ear (which can be a tremendous gamechanger) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223562-playtesting-the-new-rules/page/3/#findComment-2679260 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BertyBottyBiter Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 The Callidus works in the list I'm looking at running because she will be arriving in my opponent's deployment zone at the same time as the rest of my army. You've got 30 GKs (half are termies), 2 Dreadknights and a Callidus romping though your deployment zone by my second turn, all arriving at the same time. She works better for my list because of her deployment rules - a Vindicare would be useless in my list as he'd be the only thing of my army on the board and in LoS at the start of the game. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223562-playtesting-the-new-rules/page/3/#findComment-2679267 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brom MKIV Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 Ya losing word in your ear sucks I admit, but at least all assassins have frag grenades now. The callidus still has the potential to eliminate a unit in one turn and +2 attacks as well (neural shredder wasnt a pistol) and the d6 s4 ap2 can potentially deal the same damage as when she was able to charge on arrival. True that she can no longer hide in combat but she is still useful. Off topic, I hope orbital strike relay is better than the old version and not just another name for the ultras orbital bombardment. That would give me just one more reason to play techpriests :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223562-playtesting-the-new-rules/page/3/#findComment-2679271 Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeyking Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 Going to ground isn't ever going to help, so the only use Stealth will get is if you're able to place her in cover, and then you *might* get a 3+ Cover out of it. I agree. And even if you do get her in that cover, she's still a two wound marine to small arms fire. The equivalent of one unit of tacs, necron warriors, fire warriors, whatever rapidfiring the assassin and that's all she wrote. So you get one turn of shooting with some extra hits in advance and then she more than likely dies. Im not saying its useless, im just saying that its expensive for what you get. The old one was also expensive but at least she was somewhat more survivable as you could imediately get her stuck in in cc. That and before she did anything she has already used a word in your ear (which can be a tremendous gamechanger) The problem with the survivability argument is that it applies equally to all the assassins available. In games most games, you shouldn't expect the Callidus or Vindicaire to survive more than 2 rounds. Both have the same stat line and the same vulnerability to ID, so the only difference between them is the number of s8 shots they can take before they die. I consider the Callidus to be better, if only that her chance to cause mayhem is guaranteed, whereas the Vindicaire can be avoided for T1 if the opponent is careful. And he can't move and shoot his rifle, so depending on the who goes first in a game turn, he might die without firing a shot. In a weird way, a Vindicaire becomes less useful the higher the point totals of an army gets. More points means more anti-tank, which means more shots come towards him, which means he dies earlier. The Callidus isn't really affected by that particular factor, since she's in the thick of it at the beginning. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223562-playtesting-the-new-rules/page/3/#findComment-2679288 Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeyking Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 Ya losing word in your ear sucks I admit, but at least all assassins have frag grenades now. The callidus still has the potential to eliminate a unit in one turn and +2 attacks as well (neural shredder wasnt a pistol) and the d6 s4 ap2 can potentially deal the same damage as when she was able to charge on arrival. True that she can no longer hide in combat but she is still useful. Off topic, I hope orbital strike relay is better than the old version and not just another name for the ultras orbital bombardment. That would give me just one more reason to play techpriests :) Yeah, I've noticed that about techpriests. They're kind of a cheap pseudo-HQ. They start cheap, but can add a lot of what would be HQ-only wargear. I still want to know what blind grenades are, and I'm hoping the orbital strike is similar to a melta torpedo from the last book, s8 ap3 Barrage ordinance with 2d6 on the pen roll. For 50 points that would be good. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223562-playtesting-the-new-rules/page/3/#findComment-2679293 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordsloth Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 The problem with the survivability argument is that it applies equally to all the assassins available. In games most games, you shouldn't expect the Callidus or Vindicaire to survive more than 2 rounds. Both have the same stat line and the same vulnerability to ID, so the only difference between them is the number of s8 shots they can take before they die. I consider the Callidus to be better, if only that her chance to cause mayhem is guaranteed, whereas the Vindicaire can be avoided for T1 if the opponent is careful. And he can't move and shoot his rifle, so depending on the who goes first in a game turn, he might die without firing a shot. In a weird way, a Vindicaire becomes less useful the higher the point totals of an army gets. More points means more anti-tank, which means more shots come towards him, which means he dies earlier. The Callidus isn't really affected by that particular factor, since she's in the thick of it at the beginning. The vindicare will usually be found in cover and some distance away so the amount of shots directed at him should normally be fewer (and often also shots that would have otherwise been threatening to your vehicles). Now I'm not saying his survivability is stellar or anything, but better than the callidus'. You are however absolutely correct that his survivability doesnt withstand high point games. I'm also not saying that the vindicare is a fantastic unit, merely that I found him better than the callidus. Frankly I dont think I'd run any assassins in my list at this juncture, where the callidus used to be a decent pick for me. (And maybe it'll turn out to still be so but at current my gutfeeling is no) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223562-playtesting-the-new-rules/page/3/#findComment-2679298 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 That. The Cally *has* to be inches away from at least one unit, so will usually be a lot closer, and open to more fire, if not extra hits from Rapid Fire and obviosuly assaults. The Vindi will be father away, and most likely deployed in cover, and will get some use from his Stealth. Edit: For 50 points, I'm hoping the Orbital Relay isn't limited to a single shot! :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223562-playtesting-the-new-rules/page/3/#findComment-2679311 Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeyking Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 See, but the Callidus being inches away from the squad it "deploys" from means if any of its still there, it would provide some cover from the army shooting at you, or even better using the cover they were hiding in. And if they move to take it away and they're a HW squad, well thats less shots from them, which is a bonus anyway. Frankly, I'm with lordsloth, I'm probably not going to field an assassin. At least not in a game less then 2000 points. Each of them has specific strengths and weaknesses, but all of them are a bit fragile. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223562-playtesting-the-new-rules/page/3/#findComment-2679398 Share on other sites More sharing options...
grimz Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 I think people are really underestimating how good Death Cult Assassins appear to be. I haven't run the math (and I'm about to head out), but you can get 9 of them (not counting the Inquisitor /blah) for the cost of a Callidus. 36 Power Weapon attacks on the charge, striking at Initative 6, Weapon Skill 5, and Strength 4 .... Using a Callidus to nuke a LF Squad at the back might be worth it? I don't know yet, reminds me of Termicide with Chaos Terminators, which I always thought was kinda silly (yet effective). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223562-playtesting-the-new-rules/page/3/#findComment-2679412 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alessander Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 The callidus polymorphine can also be used against vehicles, since the rules state "any unit" which also encompasses vehicles, monsterous creatures etc. Now it doesn't state which armor arc you roll against on vehicles. Logic would say whatever arc you end up placing her in, but since the steps are in the wrong order it doesn't work that way. Fluff-based logic (thus inaccurate lol) would say it'd be against the lowest armor value. You can potentially take out 2 units- have her pop out of an independant character, monster or vehicle, then spray another with the shredder. That said, using it against fire support squads (Devastators, tau railgun suits etc) sounds like the best way to use her. The DCA (and all the henchmen) are great BUT require one of your two HQ slots to unlock. I'm not bashing the effectiveness of the DCAs (I own 8 myself, 2 normal ones, plus 2 sets of conversions based on mordheim amazons & LOTR Uruk-Hai Berzerkers) it's just that the "no FOC slot" is misleading. Granted, the Inquisitors can be dirt cheap but most people won't resist kitting them out. I'm be trying out a GK list tomorrow, i'll let you know how it turns out. I'll be using my two gathering-dust Starship Troopers M-8 "Ape" Marauder suits as Dreadknights... it'll be the first time they've ever seen the table! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223562-playtesting-the-new-rules/page/3/#findComment-2679431 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brom MKIV Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 I also hope the orbital strike relay isnt a single shot. If not then hello techpriests! I have rolled with a very restrictive list for many years so now im ready to run an unorthodox list with a variety of options and flavor. Basically I want all of this (aka the cool stuff): -ordo xenos inquisitor(s) with nasty xenos wargear -teleporting gkss with hvy bolter ammo -teleporting dreadknights -'marbo' assassin- callidus -sniper assassin- vindicare -decent techpriests -orbital bombardment/osr not linked to terrain -chimeras full of deathcult assassins and melta -chimeras full of psyker squads Being at the high end of competitive doesnt concern me with this list ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223562-playtesting-the-new-rules/page/3/#findComment-2679437 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.