Nehekhare Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 sure, but this is not what the sentence sais. using an oblit as an expensive havoc is an option, but I think this is neglecting the unit's potential because of risk avoidance: less risky but less effective, or in other words: even if rolling (quite) good, it won't cause as much damage as when in close range. On the other hand, I wouldn't even say that reserve-lists depend on good rolls. They all have benefits and drawbacks. The more units, the more statistics average it out. Compared to Chaos daemons, marines do not need to roll for what half of their army starts where, can either assault out of DS or are more shooty if not, have more and cheaper icons and better staying power on the board because of transports and saves. And you wouldn't argue that CD collapse on a roll of 1-2, would you? maybe you just need to give it a try...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 using an oblit as an expensive havoc is an option, what 0_o cheapest havock unit with a single hvy weapon costs a lot more then a single oblit . how is it even possible to make oblits an "expensive version of havocks" ? maybe you just need to give it a try...? I find it kind of a insulting that you think in 2+ years of chaos dex people didnt test this kind of builds . No they do not work . First of all unless you play 1750 or more you wont have enough deep strikng units to counter the randomness of entry [and unlike loyalist we dont have drop pod/Death wing assault] . But that is not all when you start playing 1750 or more melta drop and pop builds stop to work . why ? because when at 1500 you managed to de mecha an army with 2-3 transports dead[or you kill of half of their support units , if they are LS/tanks/chimeras etc] at 1750 or more the number of targets is bigger and armies are no longer crippled after losing those . A drop and pop army is a variation of an alfa strike build only unlike most of those it does not do hth [demon bombs were a perfect example of alfa strike builds , BA runing double storm+ dreads are now . and no am not going to talk how viable alfa strike builds are in 5th ed] . If it doesnt work[aka pop those units] , it dies . But to get back more to the chaos sm version of the list. The real problem with it is that to run it we have to cut troops a lot and we dont realy have options to do it . Our units cant double time like sternguard in pedro builds where they are both part of the alfa strike and scoring . So we are forced to run cult [as cms cost too much] . Zerkers are out of the question , not just because they dont support shoty aspect of the build , but also because of their points cost . Ergo we can run 5 man pm squads . This means our army get realy close to build a "draw army" in games that requier objectives , because as tough as they maybe 2x5 pms do not make a good scoring platform . those are just a few problem in a chaos deep strike centered list , just take from chaos perspective . without going in to the whole match up problem , going against loyalist armies with mystics or SW with their RP , or reserv armies or other alfa strike builds [bA one for example ignores melta] or how to deal with armies that dont run mecha [nids which are meh and foot IG which are perfectly viable] . the only way for it to work , is the way I see it , is in an eviroment with a huge number of elite[few high cost models in transports , no long range to speak off . slow with no fleet , no scout etc] armies played at 1500 . at more points other armies do it a lot better , offten cheaper . and at 2k or more it becomes ineffective against many lists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 every list collapses if you roll badly, exept those lists that collapse even if rolling good ^_^ A list may collapse its up to you how you turn the tides in youre favor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 sure, but this is not what the sentence sais. It does as far as I know... well you now what I mean with it now at least right? ^_^ using an oblit as an expensive havoc is an option, but I think this is neglecting the unit's potential because of risk avoidance: less risky but less effective, or in other words: even if rolling (quite) good, it won't cause as much damage as when in close range. You move it forward untill you get into close range while shooting lasscannons first (in general) while usually switching to MM's and/or plasma later into the game. (when tey are still alive) On the other hand, I wouldn't even say that reserve-lists depend on good rolls. They all have benefits and drawbacks. The more units, the more statistics average it out No it gets worse, because you have even a smaller part of your army on the board while you still only get 50% of your units on average. And you wouldn't argue that CD collapse on a roll of 1-2, would you? They kinda do actually. It's an entire different army, which works differently too. At least they don't start with parts on the board though... maybe you just need to give it a try...? Maybe you can give us a competative allcomers list? But I'm afraid that it won't change things in this case, the concept does not work with chaos... it's as simple as that, the codex doesn't support it. Oblits, Termies and Princes are pretty decent units to support such a build; but what about troops? There the concept starts to really fail... Lesser Deamons are bad and you need 2 normal troops too. How I would play it if I had too? Something like this: Prince; wings, MoT, Bolt 175 Prince; wings, MoT, Bolt 175 5 Plague Marines; 2x melta, Rhino 170 5 Plague Marines; 2x melta, Rhino 170 5 Termies; 4 combiemeltas, 1 heavy flamer + chainfist, IoCG 200 5 Termies; 4 combiemeltas, 1 heavy flamer + chainfist, IoCG 200 5 Termies; 4 combiemeltas, 1 heavy flamer + chainfist, IoCG 200 2 Oblits 150 2 Oblits 150 2 Oblits 150 Total: 1740 (twin linked bolters on the rhino I guess to spend the points) I'm tempted to put combiplasmas in the Termie units too... But the melta is pretty mandatory too. Maybe 3 meltas, 2 plasmas (so no heavy flamers which are kinda meh anyway). I choose for that Prince setup so you have some additional AT-shots on the drop and you'll have a hard time claiming a cover save out of deepstrike... The chance of getting boltered down is there but you're dropping within melta range too so overall MoT is the best option here I think. You could try it with Lash for giggles. (Oblits blow up a transport > Prince Lashes > Termies shoot it, but that's not exactly a reliable plan :P ) How do you play it? You reserve everything...Plague Marines try to stay alive while the rest of the force tries to kill stuff ^_^ It doesn't even look that bad; but it's not competative trust me... You'll fail against quite some armies (optimised ones at least) but it could be rather fun to play with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 more or less the build I was using only I went for 2x6 plas/melta 3/3 set up with one fist no icon and 3 man termicid with just plas. Ah and My DP where khorn and i had havocks on my rhinos [with the idea that first turn I dont shot and turn 2 my opponent has stuff within 12" of him so rhinos shouldnt be stuned/shaken]. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 It doesn't even look that bad; but it's not competative trust me... You'll fail against quite some armies (optimised ones at least) but it could be rather fun to play with. It is fun, I know it is for me :P I gave a list a page back, mostly the same but with stronger PM units and less princes. even more fun if your troops actually survive the game. See, walking oblits across the (mostly open) field in my experience means limiting a 75pts model to one LC shot and exposing it needlessly. DSing them turn 2/3 sacrifes 1-2 shots for absolute safety and absolute effectivity in ideal position. why LC when you have a twin-linked melter/plasmagun? Comparing them to CD is not too far out I think, not this specific playstyle. @jeske: how is it even possible to make oblits an "expensive version of havocks" ? simple - compare one single havoc to a single oblit, the crux of comparison being the function of support fire from an entrenched position. I get the strong feeling that you feel insulted by a divergent opinion alone... I'm just sharing my point of view here. if you or the "people" you refer to beg to differ, don't feel insulted by me. there is no need to speak of your own experiences as if they were absolute truths - it doesn't come off very friendly. So, if you did not already try out DS oblits personally and continued to do so every time when the metagame changed then maybe my suggestion wasn't that wrong after all... try something new/else/fun if you are as dissatisfied with the codex as you seem to be! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 Agreed! Though, I'd argue against the usefulness of 3x2 Obliterators. 3x3 is far more powerful. I recently played a 1850 tournament where the Chaos player that used the following took 1st place: Abaddon (walked with Obliterators for some reason Daemon Prince - MoT, wings, wind of chaos Greater Daemon 5 PM - flamer, melta 5 PM - flamer, melta 5 PM - 2 plasma guns 3x rhinos - combi-meltas 3x3 Obliterators He walked everything and it seemed pretty effective (stomped me). I had to continuously hide from his weapons batteries until I could CC them to death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manning Posted March 2, 2011 Author Share Posted March 2, 2011 Curious layout.. are 5 count Plague Marine squads really that effective? I've seen instances where a single 5 PM unit camped on a home objective, but nothing more.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 Curious layout.. are 5 count Plague Marine squads really that effective?I've seen instances where a single 5 PM unit camped on a home objective, but nothing more.. Not a matter of effectiveness, it's a matter of cost. :cuss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 The PM weren't really doing too much, other than capping objectives and taking the odd shot if I got too close. The workhorses were the Obliterators shooting everything, the Daemon Prince and Greater Daemon punching everything. The PM's did get into combat, and due to completely :P: rolls on my part I typically failed the combats (even with my characters...). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abyssel Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 In my experiences, 7 man PM squads do rather well. I rarely like to use oblits, the model is horrendous looking. Though I'm probably going to convert some into my own form to make them less ugly and see what happens. I always forget what weapons they have (silly me) I do agree that DSing TL Melta's into a tank may be better than crack shotting with a LC. but you could always do what I do every time I attempt to DS oblits, fail horribly and have the unit die due to mishap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 compare one single havoc to a single oblit, only you cant buy a single havock . you have to buy 5 . I mean when thinking like that why talk about oblits or havocks just buy a plasma gun alone . I mean for a single oblit you can buy tons of those . if you or the "people" you refer to beg to differ, don't feel insulted by me no dude I felt insulted as you are implied that people should "try it" as if gamers didnt test every possible set up out of the damn dex. We did and it doesnt work . So, if you did not already try out DS oblits personally and continued to do so every time when the metagame changed then maybe my suggestion wasn't that wrong after all... I did . and I mean real testing . repeated after major dex change or new dex comes out . it does not work . See, walking oblits across the (mostly open) field in my experience means limiting a 75pts model to one LC shot and exposing it needlessly. even when playing new tournaments that dont have enough terrain , you wont play on 3 glass plain tables . and even if it did happen where are your rhino walls ? why arent your oblits in cover ? and even standing in the open they still get their sucky inv or can go to the ground . small weapons wont kill them [as in a single hvy bolter/scater laser or land speder squadron of 2] unless someone invests in 2-3 squads/units shoting at them . hvy weapons ID them true , but they can weather RL and autocanons . and even las or multi melta have to be used in 4+ to be sure they die[and you move units in to LoS of oblits before you shot ] , because you still have to hit and wound and go through the inv/cover. how are they one shot . And even if they are , even if they do die . This means the DPs are not going shot at , rhinos get less fire , which is good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manning Posted March 2, 2011 Author Share Posted March 2, 2011 ..c'mon players ..decent Oblits are just a kit bash away http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m292/Jackal-God/Project/oblit3.jpg http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m292/Jackal-God/Project/oblit5.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 it does not work . Quite a choir :D :D Well, my games say otherwise, but you do what you think is right. Nevertheless, I would guess people reading this thread have more fun finding out themselves than doing what you or I say. anyway, oblits are good, and indeed, there are multiple opportunities for conversion madness. Terminators + leftover heavy weapons are one way, but anything with lots of/big weapons will do. the Problem with the GW models is the non-energy weapon bits they no longer are able to use (besides the stompy model itself, arguably). There are some miniatures outside of GW that I found to be good bases for oblits: http://www.tellurian.de/blog/media/rk52002.main.jpg Rackham's AT-43 Bane Goliaths (just need a plasma cannon on their backs for dark mechanicus obliterator goodness) http://www.thegamestore.be/store/images/PIPbloath.jpg Warmachine Cryx Bloat Thrall (nice option for pure nurgle armies) the old models do look very nice, too, but too small for 2 wound terminators. I use them as counts-as 1000sons for my IW from time to time...although they also "do not work", as some people will tell you...but they are awesome nonetheless :ph34r: and after all, what works and what not is situational, so sometimes changing this might also work... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 See, walking oblits across the (mostly open) field in my experience means limiting a 75pts model to one LC shot and exposing it needlessly. DSing them turn 2/3 sacrifes 1-2 shots for absolute safety and absolute effectivity in ideal position. why LC when you have a twin-linked melter/plasmagun? Well you can repeat your argument without adding something new, but I won't ^_^ I covered already why this does not work in the Chaos codex. Comparing them to CD is not too far out I think, not this specific playstyle. It is too far out, you can't just compare a list with some other list if it has roughly the same playstyle. The Deamon Codex does work totally different. But if you want to do it: Deamons are kinda limited and have 2 more or less competative builds (they can win, but are a little depedant on matchups). These 2 builds are a Bloodcrusher/Fateweaver list and a Tzeentch list with also Fiends and stuff. You can't compare these builds with these chaos builds. So; yes, very fun but not overly competative. If you like to argue after like 4 years that some kind of different build is competative, then that's great! But that goes further than just claiming it :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 well, on what grounds is something comparable at all then? And technically, your arguments were just as theoretical as mine, the difference being that I'm just saying it works for me while you claim it never works for anybody - and that surely is a whole lot of a bigger assumption. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 well, on what grounds is something comparable at all then? Comparing builds between different codices is always something you should be carefull with... But in this case you don't compare lists with eachother; you can compare only the concept of deepstriking most of your army and they even work differently in that respect! And technically, your arguments were just as theoretical as mine, the difference being that I'm just saying it works for me That's how it works; when you claim that something works, you need to prove it. Would be strange when you could say stuff like 'the sun is a square' and then expect others to prove it's not... (stupid example ofc, but you should get the idea) while you claim it never works for anybody - and that surely is a whole lot of a bigger assumption. Not my words mate, I claim it's not competative; that's something else. Bad builds can win games too, heck they can even win certain tournaments. But that doesn't make a build competative. (that is: performing consistently against good builds, asumming players skill and other things are equal) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shas'o R'Vre Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 Would be strange when you could say stuff like 'the sun is a square' and then expect others to prove it's not... Aha! But it is! PROOF Ok, Well, in Minecraft it is On Topic: Walking Oblits is better than DSing them in almost all situations, proven by mathhammer and experience. The only times DSing is better is when your range is limited (Large-Scale massed terrain Cities of Death games, Special Rules missions, EG "The X Factor" 40K Radio Crusade Mission and any times when your LOS is limited by lots of terrain.) or when your opponent takes special units to deny shots to/kill off your stationary Oblits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alys Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 The old models do look very nice, too, but too small for 2 wound terminators. I have 5 of the old model Obliterators (and two of the new), would that be a problem if I fielded them? I'm more a retro-figure person, and prefer the older figures (most of the time), so I'd prefer to use them... however I don't want to end up having to not play because someone says they are too small... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 It's not a problem at all. GW has never said that older figures aren't allowed, so it's up to the organizers to say so. When they don't, there's no problem whatsoever. All rules are being followed, after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shas'o R'Vre Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 It's not a problem at all. GW has never said that older figures aren't allowed, so it's up to the organizers to say so. When they don't, there's no problem whatsoever. All rules are being followed, after all. Actually, the official GW ruling is "Models must be on the base they are supplied with, or larger" LOS to actual model is not mentioned, only the base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techsoldaten Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 The argument against Obliterators is swarm armies. Orks and Tyranids can field massive numbers of troops and you need more shots to deal with them. I have not run into this in a tournament but have faced players bringing more than 100 Orks onto the table at once. A mob of 30 boys targetting your Obliterator is only going to take 3 shots per turn (maybe more with flamers) and they will destroy your unit in CC. When you consider the points cost for 30 boys is less than the cost of 3 Obliterators, this is actually a compelling argument against using them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 When you consider the points cost for 30 boys is less than the cost of 3 Obliterators, this is actually a compelling argument against using them. When you consider that your army should consist of more things than Obliterators only, it's not. Try using your troops against them, might work wonders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shas'o R'Vre Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 When you consider the points cost for 30 boys is less than the cost of 3 Obliterators, this is actually a compelling argument against using them. When you consider that your army should consist of more things than Obliterators only, it's not. Try using your troops against them, might work wonders. Ten CSM's Cost slightly less than 30 Boyz, and 14 Bolter Shots and 4 Plasma/2 Melta shots makes Orky soup fairly well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techsoldaten Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 When you consider the points cost for 30 boys is less than the cost of 3 Obliterators, this is actually a compelling argument against using them. When you consider that your army should consist of more things than Obliterators only, it's not. Try using your troops against them, might work wonders. Ten CSM's Cost slightly less than 30 Boyz, and 14 Bolter Shots and 4 Plasma/2 Melta shots makes Orky soup fairly well. Not going to get into a debate about every possible unit combination. I can think of many effective counters to a 10 man CSM squad, but that's not the point. If someone ask me what the argument is against Obliterators, I am going to point to the fact they are no good against a horde. Did I miss something in the rules that proves otherwise? No? Great. Relative cost is a one way of measuring the value of a unit, since you always want a unit to kill more than it costs. Given that the boys cost around the same, it seemed useful. I used an Ork boys squad as a comparison because of the points cost, there are tyranid units that I could have used as well. But yeah, if someone shows up to a battle with over 100 Orks and little armor, I would leave the obliterators off the table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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