Obliterators - why not?

[Brother Nihm]

If someone ask me what the argument is against Obliterators, I am going to point to the fact they are no good against a horde. Did I miss something in the rules that proves otherwise? No? Great.

You are aware that they can morph twin-linked flamers and plasma cannons right?

Two weapons that absolutely destroy hordes.

 

But then again,

You don't need them to be good against hordes, because anti-horde is not the job for Obliterators, that is what CSM/Zerkers and Rot-Princes are for. Obliterators are used to patch up our biggest weakness, the lack of mobile long-range high-strength weapons so we can deal with transports and armour.

 

My 2 Kraks

[Shas'o R'Vre]

If someone ask me what the argument is against Obliterators, I am going to point to the fact they are no good against a horde. Did I miss something in the rules that proves otherwise? No? Great.

You are aware that they can morph twin-linked flamers and plasma cannons right?

Two weapons that absolutely destroy hordes.

Errr... This.

 

 

But then again,

You don't need them to be good against hordes, because anti-horde is not the job for Obliterators, that is what CSM/Zerkers and Rot-Princes are for.

Again, This.

[the jeske]

If someone ask me what the argument is against Obliterators, I am going to point to the fact they are no good against a horde. Did I miss something in the rules that proves otherwise? No? Great.

plasma canons, flamer . + horde already bounces of ultra grit csm units , same with zerkers .even more if the horde has to charge in to cover [no horde army has frags].

 

 

Relative cost is a one way of measuring the value of a unit, since you always want a unit to kill more than it costs.

well that is not totaly true , because LR for example never kill 250pts of units . oblits do kill more , they also draw away fire while being more resilient and more flexible [they can move and fire 2 weapons , unlike preds or havocks] then other chaos hvy support choices . Yeah havocks with 4 Autocanons kill a rhino more easy . great. only when the time comes to counter stuff with av13 or 14 [not just lemmans , but LR too] they criple our lists . and we cant put auto canons or some units like loyalist do , because they can find other slots for long range anti tank support[like a rifle man+MM attack bike set up].

 

 

 

But yeah, if someone shows up to a battle with over 100 Orks and little armor, I would leave the obliterators off the table.

a green tide is not viable because it huge problems with mecha . second thing a build like that would suffer a lot in hth because it wont be able to mulit charge [terrain bog down, rhino walls , easier to move 10 man squads then 20 man , tank shocking etc] and charging in to cover will make the number of models dead before striking high . then comes another problem . even if somehow the ork player did managed to have cover+4 [which by the way slows him down by about 2-3" what can end up with a failed charge on 2 turn wagghh for some units] he still wont get in to hth with 20 dudes .

 

third thing when he does run in to an empty rhino wall and the build has zerkers or csm in it[just pms wont work too few attacks on charge and too few ablative wounds for asp champion] , he maybe forced to charge the wall and then get countercharged and this will always be bad for him .

[techsoldaten]

If someone ask me what the argument is against Obliterators, I am going to point to the fact they are no good against a horde. Did I miss something in the rules that proves otherwise? No? Great.

plasma canons, flamer . + horde already bounces of ultra grit csm units , same with zerkers .even more if the horde has to charge in to cover [no horde army has frags].

Excellent, I was hoping to have a big, meaningless debate over whether or not Obliterators are useful against horde armies. *sigh*

 

See, I did not want to bring other units into the conversation, because then it's a discussion about 'why not Obliterators + some other unit.' But if you really want to go there...

 

Obliterators are used in roles where they are supposed to be taking out large, armored units. You put them in a position where they need to choose between shooting up the armored unit or the large horde unit and most times the player is going to go after the former. That is what they are there for. And yeah, if there are other Chaos units around, I bring another giant horde unit to let you shoot them up too. But something is going to catch the Obliterators in CC and eat them up. We can keep arguing about that forever.

 

As for the guns, plasma scatters and flamers don't have all the range in the world. With 30 models, some number of them are going to get through. If I am worried that you are going to shoot up the unit with your Obliterators, I spread them out to the maximum 2 inches between each unit and use some cover to limit my losses. A 10 man CSM squad with a couple flamers is going to have more firepower and do better in hand to hand.

 

Relative cost is a one way of measuring the value of a unit, since you always want a unit to kill more than it costs.

well that is not totaly true , because LR for example never kill 250pts of units . oblits do kill more , they also draw away fire while being more resilient and more flexible [they can move and fire 2 weapons , unlike preds or havocks] then other chaos hvy support choices . Yeah havocks with 4 Autocanons kill a rhino more easy . great. only when the time comes to counter stuff with av13 or 14 [not just lemmans , but LR too] they criple our lists . and we cant put auto canons or some units like loyalist do , because they can find other slots for long range anti tank support[like a rifle man+MM attack bike set up].

If you are trying to say it is better for units in your army to kill less than their points cost, I want to play you for money.

 

But yeah, if someone shows up to a battle with over 100 Orks and little armor, I would leave the obliterators off the table.

a green tide is not viable because it huge problems with mecha . second thing a build like that would suffer a lot in hth because it wont be able to mulit charge [terrain bog down, rhino walls , easier to move 10 man squads then 20 man , tank shocking etc] and charging in to cover will make the number of models dead before striking high . then comes another problem . even if somehow the ork player did managed to have cover+4 [which by the way slows him down by about 2-3" what can end up with a failed charge on 2 turn wagghh for some units] he still wont get in to hth with 20 dudes .

I don't believe a green tide army is generally viable, but I would want to go at them with units with the most shots and the most attacks in melee. Obliterators don't fit that model.

 

Saying that a 30 man squad cannot benefit from cover or get close enough to charge means a lot of things have to go right for your Obliterators, and 40k has never been a game where you want to count on things going right. You have to have LOS, scatter rolls have to stay on target, etc. Even if you can get 3 shots off each round, you still have to hit them. A big squad of CSMs is going to be more effective because they have a lot more shots, they have more attacks in CC, etc.

 

third thing when he does run in to an empty rhino wall and the build has zerkers or csm in it[just pms wont work too few attacks on charge and too few ablative wounds for asp champion] , he maybe forced to charge the wall and then get countercharged and this will always be bad for him .

Again, here we go with more units. Maybe the horde unit has to get through a wall, but what's to say there's not 2 or 3 more 30 man boys squads coming up from other directions? I don't think this proves anything.

[the jeske]

You put them in a position where they need to choose between shooting up the armored unit or the large horde unit and most times the player is going to go after the former

why ? targets are not picked on what ever they are big or small , btu on what ever the situation on the table calls for it . people that pick targets because it is"cool" or because they dislike unit X or Y are playing the game the wrong way.

 

And yeah, if there are other Chaos units around, I bring another giant horde unit to let you shoot them up too.

ok am having problems with my lists here now. Nids wont shot stuff up , ork shoting boyz maybe dangerous to rhinos , but not csm or oblits [specialy as you are los blocking right , that is what rhino walls are for] . + your againt operating units in a vacum where 2-3 oblits face 100 orks . It is never like that . And even if you somehow do focus fire on oblits , this means the csm/zerkers and DP are untouched and the orks now how a rhino wall in front of them that poped smoked and they are forced to charge it .

 

Or do by shoting up you mean footslogger IG builds ? because yes those do and can kill oblits with shoting , but again it is good because you want your DP and oblits draw as much fire as possible so turn 2-3 your csm/zerkers/pms can mulit charge their infantry blobs .

 

plasma scatters

againt 10 man meq . yeah it does against 20 man ork, nid or bigger IG squads it doesnt or rather the possible number of models killed is not lower then the one you get with a static autocanon.

 

 

 

If you are trying to say it is better for units in your army to kill less than their points cost, I want to play you for money.

aLR will never kill 250 pts . unless it kills another LR . anything that costs 200+ pts will find it hard to kill those 200pts alone . camper units dont have to kill stuff at all .

I mean the whole idea behind tactical marines for sm , is that they do not kill stuff , they do shot , they tar pit in hth , but they are not the part of the list that kills stuff.

 

Want more examples , with fast moving objective contesters , counter units that may never see hth in shoty builds , mystics in IG armies [the inq and the mystic never kill anything].

 

 

Saying that a 30 man squad cannot benefit from cover or get close enough to charge means a lot of things have to go right for your Obliterators, and 40k has never been a game where you want to count on things going right.

am saying it doesnt matter , if they conga because it slows them down and if they try to move 30 man units x X through cover then it slows them down even more [and more turns out of hth means more dead orks which = bad] , specialy as we are not talking here about a marine list with 30-40 models but orks or nids that have 100+ [nid for example run around 140 that is without the new breed from terivs] this means their army gets spread and an ork unit vs a csm or zerker unit is bad for the orks . the oblits are not even needed to make it bad for a tide army build.

 

 

 

You have to have LOS, scatter rolls have to stay on target, etc.

how do you scater off 100 orks or nids or IG when tables are 4x4 or 4x6 ?

 

 

Again, here we go with more units. Maybe the horde unit has to get through a wall, but what's to say there's not 2 or 3 more 30 man boys squads coming up from other directions?

because there is terrain and if they move through terrain from another direction [unless it is impassible] they may not get to charge and then it is even worse for the ork/nid becuase not they have a small break in the rhino wall were only one squad can go through [and it will be turn3 so good chance that wagghh has been already poped] . and yes it is never one unit on one unit . The game will neve be 2 oblits vs 30 boyz unless someone plays with rules like that . The thing is those 100+ boyz have to pop the rhino wall and after the charge there is no way they can also charge the zerkers/csm that are on the other side . this means they will get shot up at close range[pistols] hit by plasma when they are bunched up after hth and then charge and yes it is going to be 3-4 squads of boyz vs 2-3 squads of zerkers/csm +2DPs only A those units of boyz wont be full strengh B the fact that the ork army has 2-3 squads untouched doesnt help it much as they would have to win the combat and go around the whole hth to charge . otherwise it will be again 2-3 ork squads vs those battered csm/zerkers and DPS [and if the ork tries to go after the DPs the squads will be in much better shape].

[Shas'o R'Vre]

You have to have LOS, scatter rolls have to stay on target, etc.

how do you scater off 100 orks or nids or IG when tables are 4x4 or 4x6 ?

Yeah, this. I find templates rarely scatter entirely off units that are 10 Man, let alone 30 Man units. And seeing as the max scatter for a Plasma Cannon is 8", It's hard to NOT hit stuff.

[Abyssel]

[they can move and fire 2 weapons , unlike preds or havocks]

Wait....what?

 

Have I been playing oblits wrong this entire time?...

 

Also, vs the horde thing,

 

Pie plating giant units is no problem..they die so easily that by the time they get to anything, they're under half strength.

 

Me, I personally don't like using Oblits, then again I use a predator so guess I'm not cookie cutter. They're a good unit and everything, but I don't know what turns me off from them.

[Shas'o R'Vre]

[they can move and fire 2 weapons , unlike preds or havocks]

Wait....what?

 

Have I been playing oblits wrong this entire time?...

He means in a two-man unit, you move and fire two weapons

[Zhukov]

But yeah, if someone shows up to a battle with over 100 Orks and little armor, I would leave the obliterators off the table.

 

Your whole ramble is rather arrogant and that's something I normally don't mind... Normally, because when it is misplaced arrogance then I do mind it. This quote already shows that you go into discussions wrong: Implying you know that you are going to play against horde Orks means you're not talking about general effectiveness here, you are the one here bringing up a direct counter to a unit (while you mention yourself that bringing up a counter against this unit is wrong, lol?). More so: Tailor-alert.

 

Basicly you want to argue that Ork mobs beat Oblits 1 on 1? Wow, now that sounds relevant... no wait not really. Troll much?

 

Oh and indeed; Green tide is not a competative list, it's a noobslayer.

[Manning]

..but can you field too many Oblits?

 

In my last test game [1850] I really struggled against several hulls. Combat was not the issue as the Princes assisted quite efficiently.

 

I would have been better off with something like this..

 

 

Daemon Prince [Wings]

Daemon Prince [Wings]

 

Plague Marines [5] Plasma Gun [2]

Chaos Marines [10] Champ [Pwr Fist] Meltagun [2] Icon Glory, Rhino

Chaos Marines [10] Champ [Pwr Fist] Meltagun [2] Icon Glory, Rhino

Chaos Marines [10] Champ [Pwr Fist] Meltagun [2] Icon Glory, Rhino

 

Obliterator [3]

Obliterator [3]

Obliterator [3]

 

1845

[techsoldaten]

Your whole ramble is rather arrogant and that's something I normally don't mind... Normally, because when it is misplaced arrogance then I do mind it. This quote already shows that you go into discussions wrong: Implying you know that you are going to play against horde Orks means you're not talking about general effectiveness here, you are the one here bringing up a direct counter to a unit (while you mention yourself that bringing up a counter against this unit is wrong, lol?). More so: Tailor-alert.

 

I don't pretend to be humble but it is reasonable for me to offer the opinion that Obliterators are not ideal against hordes. If this seems arrogant to you, I am happy to offer a simpler argument for the sake of civility.

 

A 10 man CSM squad with anti-infantry upgrades is more cost-efficient than a 3 man Obliterator squad, even if you upgrade with plasma guns. You get enough shots per round to put down a large number of Orks or Tyranids at a lower cost. While it is true you would get 3 shots with flamers or plasma from an Obliterator squad, the likelihood of wiping out the unit with 10 CSMs is greater simply because you get so many more shots.

 

Basicly you want to argue that Ork mobs beat Oblits 1 on 1? Wow, now that sounds relevant... no wait not really. Troll much?

 

No, that is not what I want to argue, and it is unfair to point to things like that out of context. I have only brought up such points in response to other people saying that Obliterators plus some additional unit would wipe out a large boys mob before it got there, which is equally irrelevant if not moreso.

 

This thread does not appear to contain another strong argument for when to reconsider using Obliterators. Given your concerns over online ettiquette, perhaps you should consider responding to the topic instead of critizing me personally.

 

Oh and indeed; Green tide is not a competative list, it's a noobslayer.

 

You ever fought one?

 

Regardless, I would not bring Obliterators to fight a green tide, unless they had tanks. There are better ways to spend the points.

[Captain Tezdal]

Personally I don't use oblits because I play World Eaters, and loathe the models...but I don't see why anyone wouldn't use them if they liked the model and fit the fluff. They got neat rules and are fun to play.

[Shas'o R'Vre]

I am happy to offer a simpler argument for the sake of civility.

 

A 10 man CSM squad with anti-infantry upgrades is more cost-efficient than a 3 man Obliterator squad, even if you upgrade with plasma guns.

But CSM's are not a HS choice, and the arguement is therefore irrelevant to the post. What should you take in the HEAVY SUPPORT instead of Oblits to counter Horde? Maybe a Defiler, but then you lose out on Anti-Vehicle. Same with a Vindicator.

 

This thread does not appear to contain another strong argument for when to reconsider using Obliterators.

Because there isn't really one. Oblits are a good, cheap, Jack of all trades unit, and does exactly what our Troops/FA/Elites slots lack.

 

Oh and indeed; Green tide is not a competative list, it's a noobslayer.

 

You ever fought one?

Yes, several times, each time tabling them by turn 3/4 with minimal to medium losses (I only had medium losses because he had Deffkoptas which he used to take out my Rhinos and Defiler.)

 

Regardless, I would not bring Obliterators to fight a green tide, unless they had tanks. There are better ways to spend the points.

Where?

 

[Edit]

Personally I don't use oblits because I play World Eaters, and loathe the models...but I don't see why anyone wouldn't use them if they liked the model and fit the fluff. They got neat rules and are fun to play.

For World Eaters fluff, that makes sense. And the models ARE Butt-ugly. Metal does them no favors.

[Brother Ambroz]

If I knew what I was playing beforehand, I might consider using something different from an obliterator but oblits are the best HS choice if you're not attempting to tailor your list.

[Persephone 66]

I prefer to run 3 Defilers, but that's just me.

[Shas'o R'Vre]

I prefer to run 3 Defilers, but that's just me.

The only thing with 3 Defilers is that you have to make up your anti-tank elsewhere, but you'll already know that.

[Warsmith Aznable]

I proxy-ed a unit of 3 last night for an experimental game list (Tzeentch based). My original idea was to take two units and place them at opposite ends of my line for a crossfire effect. I ended up rearranging things down to just the one, though.

 

I think, after last night's test, that a second set might have won me the game had I gone with my original plan. Even still, just the one unit of Oblits was my second most effective unit in the game, the first being my squad of Rubric Marines that slashed two Ork mobs out of existence. I was suffering from a distinct shortage of anti-armor in other units, which sucked because I was fighting an IA Ork Dread Mob list. DCCW and AV 13 everywhere...

 

In retrospect, I wonder if one unit of Oblits centered up and laying down fire from the rear with a pair of "Assault Defilers" fleeting their way toward something that needs to be dueled would be a decent combination?