Is Null Zone really essential?

[Captain Idaho]

Oh the controversy! That's right, I went there.

 

Personally I don't often use Librarians and have never really had any trouble in my games. However, the odd times I want a Librarian in my list, I really can't contemplate taking anything other than Null Zone on him. But the question is; do I really need the power?

 

Now hear me out! I have a list planned for the ToS (actually I have loads but that is my agony!) which will have 30 Tacticals in it, one on foot to hold objectives and snipe with it's Lascannon and Plasma gun whilst the other 2 are toting Melta guns and riding inside Rhinos. However, with careful fiddling of a melta squad's Rhino to the objective holders, then put a Librarian with said squad with the Gate power, I can increase my resliance of the objective holder and still maintain the offensive capacity of the Tactical squad.

 

Of course the second power is crucial. The squad needs his offensive boost but if I use Null Zone the Librarian doesn't quite have the same kick. Not every army has invulnerables and it is only really crucial against Daemons, especially as the desired usage of the Gating squad is to attack fire bases and objectives holding units (which generally don't have invulerables).

 

So I was thinking of using Gate along side Might of Ancients, since the squad will be attacking objective holders and battle tanks. I had great sucess with a Librarian and Might of Ancients in the past, as he chews through tanks in assaults.

 

So can someone ease my fears of not using NZ? I reckon I will get more use out of the Librarian with a S6 power weapon.

[norngahl]

Take it like this.

 

Melta weapons rule if you face a mech army. They suck against green tide or genestealer-storm or infantry guard. Do you still take melters? Yes. Just to be prepared for tanks. If you face the wrong enemy, they won´t unleash the same potential as against mech. But do you know (in tourneys or when you pack your stuff and went up to your local store) who you are going to face? I guess not. Same with Nullzone. If you face the named versions above, NZ will do nothing. Against everything else it´s not a "you are going to die without it" but a big advantage.

 

Hammernators, chars, zoantrophes, dark eldars (CC and fields), bossbikers and alot of stuff beside them just go waaay easier to ground with NZ than without. For me it´s a must have, as for others it is Vulkan. But serious, I rate a decent matrix and NZ over Vulkan every day.

 

Feel free to use whatever you want. I´ve seen gating Master-Libby with Sternguards flaming/avegering whole masses to death. It´s funny, but come on, NZ is an absolutly safe bet. And safe bets are (competative) players best friends.

[greatcrusade08]

ive never needed null zone becuase my army has very little low AP weapons.. i kill termies by making them roll lots of saves to get the 1's.. it makes no never mind if they re-roll inv saves, becuase they rarely have to take inv saves.

 

norngahl touched on somthing too.. if you want to surprise your enemy and his finely balacned all rounder list, come at him with no tanks.. all those meltas and lascannons count for nought.

Oh youve killed a scout? good for you ;)

 

horses for courses, if your using lots of plasma and lascannons, then null zone reduces the chances of them getting lucky, it is especially helpful vs storm shield users

 

edit: only one model in my 1750 army has an inv save

[DarkGuard]

So can someone ease my fears of not using NZ? I reckon I will get more use out of the Librarian with a S6 power weapon.

 

Well if you face my army Null Zone will be a waste ;).

 

In answer to your original question. No, Null Zone is not needed. Terminators will still die in droves to Vindicator hits, and I often find that making Hammernators still pass their second save most of the time. However, it can be vital in some battles, and when taking an all comers list should always be included. If your opponent lets you choose before deployment then obviously you can choose what powers are best.

 

About Might of the Ancients. I used to be a fan of this power, but I'm not anymore. Libbys are not close combat monsters. You're better off taking a Captain, as often for a Libby to do well in assault you need Terminator armour, a storm shield, maybe Epistolary to use your different powers in one turn. At this rate we're looking at between 140-190pts. I can make a decent S6 Assault Captain with the same armour saves for 170pts, 180pts with digi weapons. Same movement, but better combat ability and wounds etc. OK I lose the hood, but in my experience it rarely works regularly enough to guarantee it a place in my lists. Rather, I choose a Libby for support powers and cheapness. If I weren't using two Vindys which I often pair with Null Zone for taking out troublesome units (like Terminators), I would more often go for the Captain because I love the model I have for him. Actually, thinking about it, maybe I should go for him all the time then.

 

Anyway, the answer is no, you don't need Null Zone. However, it is one of our best powers, if not a bit situational that can see it being useless in some armies. I suppose in the end you need to decide if you want a support character or one who can stand up and take and deal damage. I've won games without a Libby (came 6th in a tournie without one), and so no, they aren't essential.

[Captain Idaho]

Thing is my army operates fine without Null Zone. I don't lose anything with a Librarian except a Dreadnought which lately has been dying very quickly every game! The Gate power allows me to apply pressure which is why I was thinking of doing this. The target units I will be attack are objective campers and therefore fairly weak so I'm not too worried about the Librarian being out classed in an Assault. I've had better luck with MotA than Avenger really.

 

I know what people are saying, NZ is a game changer in the right circumstances, but I've just never really needed it.

 

I'm gona have to try it without a few games and see how that goes. I'm also hoping the mid game deepstriking pays off!

[DarkGuard]

If you find you hardly need it and use it, then there's no point to have it I agree. Much better to have a power that will see use, and I can see how Might would be useful, though personally I'd prefer Avenger. Best of luck anyway, and let us know how you get on.

[Luis_CC]

Oh the controversy! That's right, I went there.

 

Personally I don't often use Librarians and have never really had any trouble in my games. However, the odd times I want a Librarian in my list, I really can't contemplate taking anything other than Null Zone on him. But the question is; do I really need the power?

 

Now hear me out! I have a list planned for the ToS (actually I have loads but that is my agony!) which will have 30 Tacticals in it, one on foot to hold objectives and snipe with it's Lascannon and Plasma gun whilst the other 2 are toting Melta guns and riding inside Rhinos. However, with careful fiddling of a melta squad's Rhino to the objective holders, then put a Librarian with said squad with the Gate power, I can increase my resliance of the objective holder and still maintain the offensive capacity of the Tactical squad.

 

Of course the second power is crucial. The squad needs his offensive boost but if I use Null Zone the Librarian doesn't quite have the same kick. Not every army has invulnerables and it is only really crucial against Daemons, especially as the desired usage of the Gating squad is to attack fire bases and objectives holding units (which generally don't have invulerables).

 

So I was thinking of using Gate along side Might of Ancients, since the squad will be attacking objective holders and battle tanks. I had great sucess with a Librarian and Might of Ancients in the past, as he chews through tanks in assaults.

 

So can someone ease my fears of not using NZ? I reckon I will get more use out of the Librarian with a S6 power weapon.

 

I have used null zone in my last, let say, 3 or 4 tournaments.

 

It is a very situational power. In fact, its normal use is againts TH/SS termies and IC, combined with a vindicator blast or combiplasma fire, but, sometimes, this power can decide a game, I remember whan a c'tan died in turn1 when I drop pod sternguard and shoot with hellfire rounds, despite I assure you the place where I drop pod was very risky. Zoantropes also love it.

 

One advantage is that you can use it from inside a LR as I does not requiere sight line and, then, its range increases drastically.

 

If you want a short response, I would say "take null zone because your damaging potential will increase significantly againts elite enemy units and because certain armies will lost the game before it starts, for example, deathwing, loganwing, deamons...and other armies will have to redesign their strategy, for example, chaos space marines or even space marines".

[TyrionTheImp]

Needed? No. Makes its points back two fold when you do need it? Yes. Oh wait Libby powers are free with the libby! WOO!

 

Most units that have invulnerable saves are expensive, and making them re-roll them makes people angry, but it does depend on your army list. If you lack low AP shots, it may not be your cup of tea, as you can probably torrent them into the ground, and probably better off getting some other power, but if you do enjoy plasma and such it does become more useful as the opponent is more likely to use those...at least that's what I would say if Dark Eldar weren't around yet.

 

Now you have an army that can field a ton of vehicles carrying scary things and...an invulnerable save? Let's see...a 24" bubble of forcing re-rolls on those otherwise fairly easy to kill transports is a huge plus. Always fun to increase your range by a few inches with a Land Raider too.

 

Of course if nobody plays Dark Eldar in your area...may not be as fun or needed.

 

Just ask yourself, what ELSE would I be taking if I didn't take Null Zone?

[Brother Tual]

No.

 

My fave libby power combo is Gate and Might. Why? It is aggressive.

 

Might is an aggressive power and gets your libby adding to the combat score. For the base points of any other IC you get an output similar to a captain with a relic blade but -1 intiative (WS5 is hit on 3+ in most cases, 4 attacks at str6 is the same as a captain with relic blade as you will mainly use this power on the charge) The + d6 pen is a great kicker as you know. Coupled with gate and if you are playing aggressively with the movement power you have the support of might in your following turn should you be assaulting. The two powers will never be used in the same turn so you get no benefits in upgrading this libby. Cheap and nasty. Gate and avenger or other shooting powers really want the extra 50 point upgrade.

 

Gate and Nullzone are great powers for a defensive set up. Really only two units perform well with this libby, Tactical Termies and PAGK (ATM) as they can move and fire at full effect at range. These two powers also work well with the ability to cast both in the same turn.

[greatcrusade08]

IMO i think marine armies should always be aggressive, like tual ive always favoured might on my libbies, although i partnered it with avenger..

cheap and nasty is very good (just not with women)

[waaanial00]

I have had too many bad experiences trying to run gate, however I really dont think that Null Zone is a requirement. Its nice to be able to make things reroll their saves however in the last two occassions where I have been able to use it, the person still made their saves (zoanthrope and a damn tactical terminator of all things!).

 

Librarians are decent and if you are taking them I would definitely take Avenger, however my second option would probably be either Machine Curse (because you never know when you need to stop that vehicle) or Might. Though in a fun game I do take smite every now and again, just to deny those FNP rolls with my mighty lightning figers of doom!

[Phlegon]

I am currently locked in a weekly grudge match with my buddies Orks, so null hasn't been getting much face time. However, when playing in tournies or leagues where I do not always know who or what I will face I take it just in case. I am a firm believer of "better to have it and not need it, than, to need it and not have it". Just my two pennies.

[DerekLee688]

Meta game dictates the demand for Null. For me, it's not needed. Avenger, on the other hand, is the power you have to convince me not to take. Template for MEQ and horde? Yes yes.

[Ming]

I always have null, since I'm fighting power armored teminator lists, eldar, dark eldar, and other variants like demons on a regular basis. In some games it does not come in to play, but that is inconsequential to games where it does. The key is a great second spell. My librarian's other spell is either avenger or might, and I rarely have him as an epistolary, more commonly in TDA with a shield for 2000+ pt games. In most games he never gets outside the landraider until he needs to. In smaller games I'd consider the sternguard/gate option rather than landraider / assault terminators option.

 

Tactically, the librarian is there to bolster and support the line, not lead and die in front of it. Early game the role is purely to support and be a threat. Late game role is to eliminate weaker units or contest objectives.

[DarkGuard]

I must admit I'm very surprised and impressed by the responses to this thread. I was under the impression that a lot of people would shoot Captain Idaho down for asking if Null Zone was needed, with it being "the best psychic power ever" and all that. I'm not having a go, I'm just saying I'm pleased that a lot of people recognize that while Null Zone is awesome, it is situational, and is therefore dictated by your local metagame etc. I will certainly be looking at the idea of Might and Avenger (or Gate), although I would say it's fair to say that there's a 50:50 split on invulnerable save armies in my metagame. Of course, I'm tempted to pack in AP2 weapons, go for mass firepower, and just use my Captain cos he's awesome :wub:.

[Meatman]

I almost never take librarians and seem to do ok. Sure the re-rolling invuls is nice, but the way I play, that nasty unit is footslogging or without support. So I have plenty of time or spare firepower to gun them down.

 

 

Also, I second GC08's "make 'em roll a bucket of dice" to see the ones come up.

[Captain Idaho]

I almost never take librarians and seem to do ok. Sure the re-rolling invuls is nice, but the way I play, that nasty unit is footslogging or without support. So I have plenty of time or spare firepower to gun them down.

 

 

Also, I second GC08's "make 'em roll a bucket of dice" to see the ones come up.

 

That's just it for me, I don't normally use them so if I do take a Librarian it shouldn't really be a dilema because I didn't have NZ in the first place!

 

I have had too many bad experiences trying to run gate, however I really dont think that Null Zone is a requirement. Its nice to be able to make things reroll their saves however in the last two occassions where I have been able to use it, the person still made their saves (zoanthrope and a damn tactical terminator of all things!).

 

I'm concerned with this! Suppose I should make a thread on whether Gate is useful!

[DarkGuard]

Also, I second GC08's "make 'em roll a bucket of dice" to see the ones come up.

 

Be careful with this tactic, I recently played a guy who refused to roll ones. Seriously. 12 armour saves and 5 invulnerable saves on his Hammernators and only one dead. It's that kind of dice rolling that just ruins your day.

[gdeathlegion]

Sure the re-rolling invuls is nice, but the way I play, that nasty unit is footslogging or without support. So I have plenty of time or spare firepower to gun them down.

 

Ever meet a Seer Council on bikes?

[Br.Pat]

Let's put it this way:

 

Null Zone is one of the best psychic powers in the game. Can you win without using it? Certainly, especially if the enemy has few invulnerable saves. The other powers have their place but only for specific builds/specific units.

 

For example:

Gating Sternguard

Libby on a bike with Avenger

 

Null Zone is so good because it makes an enemy's elite troops/HQs which are normally very hitty/tough/whatever a much easier prospect. Therefore, it is a very competitive, useful power and one that in a tournament, when you are likely to face 3 or more players, chances are that atleast one of them will have some tough unit with an inv. save.

 

Now I'm not saying that the other powers are bad (though some of them are better than others) but let's take Avenger for example. In my opinion it's probably the second best psychic power in the SM codex. However, do I have troops who can already lay down plasma, melta or any other low AP firepower? Yes. Same thing with Smite. For GoI a substitute would be deep striking units etc etc

 

However, Null Zone allows you to do something which you otherwise could never do: Reduce an oponents Inv. Save.

[templargdt]

I always take Null Zone and Avenger on my Librarian, which is my HQ. Null Zone is incredible against several nasty units like Thunder Wolf packs, TH/SS terminators, Cybork Nobz, etc. Against some armies like Great Crusades, no, NZ is not very helpful. Avenger is excellent against almost any infantry though, even scouts wearing camo cloaks in cover ;-)

[waaanial00]

However, Null Zone allows you to do something which you otherwise could never do: Reduce an oponents Inv. Save.

 

Ah but it doesnt, it makes them take it again. Its an important distinction because if it is 3+ then its not particularly difficult to make (though not a sure thing). Something like 5+ however its really worth it.

 

Taking Null Zone in order to combat 3+ Storm Shields isnt a huge thing for me. Would much rather just kill them with volume of fire. Taking Null Zone against Daemons though would be far better.

 

I wouldnt go so far to saying that its the best power in the game, thats a bit wild. It has its uses but they are rather limited. Something like Doom is still far better, rerolling wounds helps against everything. Guide - rerolling hits again better on everything.

 

Also dont discount Avenger as being the poor child to Null Zone. Its damn effective at putting wounds and denying the majority of saves. Also its a precursor to an assault (if you are that close then why not follow up to an assault) so its essentially a force multiplier for assaulting. Again though it works on near enough anything you encounter, unless insanely tough it has the chance to affect everything you run up against.

 

Dont get me wrong its still quite effective, however there seems to be some hysteria behind it that needs to be reigned in. Logically it is not as good as people make it out to be. Its certainly not a no brainer even in a torunament setting, simply because the Librarian himself isnt that special on his own and not all armies have psykers to counter.

[Captain Idaho]

Logically it is not as good as people make it out to be. Its certainly not a no brainer even in a torunament setting, simply because the Librarian himself isnt that special on his own and not all armies have psykers to counter.

 

Actually that's my concern. A Librarian is fairly average without their powers to boost their combat potential, hence if I did use a Gate power I would have a problem with taking Null Zone as well as that would mean he would be lack lustre in assaults.

 

To be honest, I have an idea though, which takes the best of both worlds:

 

If I combat squad my 2nd Tactical squad I have enough room in it's transport. By doing this I have a Lascannon that can fire most games now and a melta gun along side a Librarian inside a transport. This enables me to have a power like Avenger or Might of Ancients along side NZ. The obvious downside is in games with Kill Points I essentially create a new KP for opponents or lose a place for the Librarian to ride.

 

Oh the indecision!

[DarkGuard]

Sure the re-rolling invuls is nice, but the way I play, that nasty unit is footslogging or without support. So I have plenty of time or spare firepower to gun them down.

 

Ever meet a Seer Council on bikes?

 

Problem with this one is that you're likely to go up against Rune of Warding as well in the shape of a Farseer/Eldrad. I'm not really a Mathhammer person, but I know that 7 is the average number rolled on two dice. Add another dice in there and you're getting dangerously close to failing all the time, and if you fail by a lot you get Perils as well.

 

 

Ah but it doesnt, it makes them take it again. Its an important distinction because if it is 3+ then its not particularly difficult to make (though not a sure thing). Something like 5+ however its really worth it.

 

Taking Null Zone in order to combat 3+ Storm Shields isnt a huge thing for me. Would much rather just kill them with volume of fire. Taking Null Zone against Daemons though would be far better.

 

I agree completely with this. Null Zone makes it harder for people to pass their invulnerable saves, considering they are re-rolling, but it doesn't decrease it. So a 6+ save is near useless, as is a 5+ save, as chances are you won't make many of them again. It's also very good at a 4+ save, like Thousand Sons and Iron Halos. For example, if the entire squad is making invulnerable saves you can expect to kill around 7/8 of them instead of around 5. Likewise, making a Captain re-roll his 4+ is very useful for when you want to ID him with a melta etc.

 

As you point out, where is struggles is 3+ saves. Most of the time, when I make my brother re-roll his Hammernator's invulnerable saves he will pass them all again. I remember there was a time when it was just his Libby with SS left and even with Null Zone he was making those saves like there's no tomorrow. The above mentioned Seer Council can be problematic as well. If they have Fortune on then all you do is cancel the re-roll, which can be good, but it's hard getting through Runes of Warding.

 

 

Don't get me wrong, Null Zone is a great power, and when it works well you will be very happy. However, I find it works best on those units that would still lose lots of models, and that those units that have really good saves produce diminishing returns from Null Zone.

[Br.Pat]

Taking Null Zone in order to combat 3+ Storm Shields isnt a huge thing for me. Would much rather just kill them with volume of fire. Taking Null Zone against Daemons though would be far better.

 

ATs are never really going to be out in the open... they're either going to be in a Land Raider or in combat. The main thing that makes ATs pretty much the premier assault unit in the game is their toughness, i.e. their save. Reduce the effectiveness of that and their cost effectiveness drops significantly.