Is Null Zone really essential?

[Captain Idaho]

I don't think Wan would dispute that, but what he is saying is true; a 3+ invulnerable save that is re-rolled will still be a good chance of saving. Whilst NZ is increasing the liklihood of failure, reliance on NZ to cull Storm Shield Terminators would be a mistake.

[pingo]

Problem with this one is that you're likely to go up against Rune of Warding as well in the shape of a Farseer/Eldrad. I'm not really a Mathhammer person, but I know that 7 is the average number rolled on two dice. Add another dice in there and you're getting dangerously close to failing all the time, and if you fail by a lot you get Perils as well.

 

The mean roll on 3D6 is 10.5, so you fail exactly half the time on Ld 10. Normally on Ld 10 you'd only be failing 1 in every 12 times rolling 2D6. Runes of warding is really really effective.

 

As you point out, where is struggles is 3+ saves. Most of the time, when I make my brother re-roll his Hammernator's invulnerable saves he will pass them all again. I remember there was a time when it was just his Libby with SS left and even with Null Zone he was making those saves like there's no tomorrow. The above mentioned Seer Council can be problematic as well. If they have Fortune on then all you do is cancel the re-roll, which can be good, but it's hard getting through Runes of Warding.

 

While I agree that it's not as good as it's hype can be, I think it's better than you may percieve.

 

Basically, Null Zone means a model has to pass it's invul. save twice rather than just once. That's still really good. But you're right that a 3++ gets to the stage where the effectiveness doesn't seem as great. Let's see if I can remember my maths from school ....

 

 

6++ – normally fails 83% of the time, with NZ fails 97% of the time

5++ – normally fails 67% of the time, with NZ fails 89% of the time

4++ – normally fails 50% of the time, with NZ fails 75% of the time

3++ – normally fails 33% of the time, with NZ fails 56% of the time

2++ – normally fails 17% of the time, with NZ fails 31% of the time

 

 

So, really, it's only the 2++ that will still pass most of the time and there really isn't very much of that going around. 3++ still fails most of the time, but only just and can be considered to be about 50:50.

 

Against all invuls. it's really useful, but I would venture that it's at it's best against 4++ and above (with 4++ being more effective more for the psychological factor of going from an expectation of a 50:50 save to being very likely to fail than anything else)

[waaanial00]

ATs are never really going to be out in the open... they're either going to be in a Land Raider or in combat. The main thing that makes ATs pretty much the premier assault unit in the game is their toughness, i.e. their save. Reduce the effectiveness of that and their cost effectiveness drops significantly.

 

Wrong they are going to be in the open when they have killed the unit they have charged, especially if they are playing against a marine player. They are going to be in the open at least once a turn after they have disembarked and that is assuming I havent killed or stopped the Raider they are riding in.

 

I do understand what you are saying, its just that even with the reroll, mathammer aside, 3+ isnt that hard to pass and thats assuming that what I am hitting them with even penetrates their regular armour.

 

So basically Null Zone is only really good against TH/SS terminators IF

 

- Your Librarian is close enough to use the power

- He manages to not roll more than 10 (happens once a game for me at the moment)

- The power isnt nullified

- You have elements capable of ignoring their regular 2+ armour save

- You are in a position to actually use those elements (ie if they are plasma that the Terminators arent stuck in combat, if power weapons they are close enough to make a difference)

- The Terminators are actually worth killing in the first place (assuming that they are close enough to objective etc)

 

 

Even then it all still depends on the person throwing a 1 or a 2.

 

Null Zone is really situational, not every unit you are wanting to throw it against is a TH/SS terminator however unless the targets only save is an invulnerable one you will still need to be able to mitigate their primary save and satisfy a whole other bunch of things in order to make it worth while.

 

@idaho - mwar har you was wrong I went there :P

[Br.Pat]

Wrong they are going to be in the open when they have killed the unit they have charged, especially if they are playing against a marine player. They are going to be in the open at least once a turn after they have disembarked and that is assuming I havent killed or stopped the Raider they are riding in.

 

Ah but then you're assuming that there are multiple squads around the ATs. In that case it's very easy to assume that the AT will be supported by other units who are tying those shooty units up in combat. It's also very easy to use a LRC as a shield and block fire.

 

- Your Librarian is close enough to use the power

 

24" is quite a long range especially if the Librarian is in a transport.

 

- He manages to not roll more than 10 (happens once a game for me at the moment)

 

I think in the tournament I played last week I failed 1 leadership tests in 3 games I played. Including morale etc

 

The power isnt nullified

 

As above this is common with all psychic powers and not just Null Zone. And your opponent having psychic defence isn't guaranteed either, not by a longshot.

 

You have elements capable of ignoring their regular 2+ armour save

 

You often do. Inv. saves mean elite infantry/troops and that means you'll often assault them with fists/power weapons etc.

 

You are in a position to actually use those elements (ie if they are plasma that the Terminators arent stuck in combat, if power weapons they are close enough to make a difference)

 

Like any psychic power you must put the librarian in a situation where his powers will have most effect. My NZ Libby has TA and SS and rides with my Termies. You won't ever keep your Librarian with Avenger in a devastator squad now will you? ;)

 

The Terminators are actually worth killing in the first place (assuming that they are close enough to objective etc)

 

First of all I think you have the impression that NZ is only good for termies... infact it is good for anything with an Inv save, and there are so many units with these. They will almost always be worth killing, if your oponent is any good he'll use his elite troops effectively and therefore they are worth killing.

 

 

Null Zone is really situational, not every unit you are wanting to throw it against is a TH/SS terminator however unless the targets only save is an invulnerable one you will still need to be able to mitigate their primary save and satisfy a whole other bunch of things in order to make it worth while.

 

Every power available to space marines is situational, but you have to play so that that situation arises. A successful NZ is often a game changing moment. I'm not saying that having it is a guaranteed win, but it is certainly the most balanced and useful power if you're not sure who your next opponent will be i.e. in a tournament environment.

 

Is NZ necessary? No? Can you win without psychic powers? There are lots of armies that do it. However in a 1500pt list, a librarian with NZ is one of the most popular and useful HQ choices.

[waaanial00]

@Dr Pat - The terminators were being used as the counter example, I actually think Null Zone is more useful against other things than terminators.

 

I wount go into the counter arguments to yours however it really is about building your list to actually complement a Null Zone Librarian, more than other choices. You seem to use terminators to counter terminators and Null Zone gives you the edge. You presumably use it to a better degree against Daemon Princes/Big Nids etc.

 

To give you some frame of reference I use a librarian with a Sternguard squad, thus I would be wasting Null zone as most of the immediate bodies around him are not going to be bypassing normal armour unless they only have ++ saves.

 

My list of considerations is still comprehensive enough to justify how situational Null Zone can be. I can do it for all the powers (certainly something like Quickening is even less impressive when you list the considerations) and Null Zone isnt the worst, however its not the best by any stretch. Its only the best if you run a list which is capable of capitalising on it and your opponent is susceptible.

 

For Idaho I know that his force would actually benefit from the effects of Null Zone to some degree because he runs Honour Guard and has quite a few Lascannons. However I still think there are better options which allow you to counter a much greater bredth of opponents.

 

Went overboard becuase the usual response to Null Zone is very limited to saying its great against things like terminators and MC's because it makes them reroll their Invun saves, however there is a much more to the story than that.

 

However in a 1500pt list, a librarian with NZ is one of the most popular and useful HQ choices

 

Without making it sound like I am picking on you. First off this statement is completely without supporting evidence. However my real beef with this statement is that just because everyone is doing it, and the internet is telling you its a great thing, doesnt make it so. Popularity counts for nothing. The number of failure internet lists at tournaments will tell you as much.

[Brother Tual]

I would just like to point out a little something at this stage.

 

I think the favour for NZ as a supreme power is because it is considered to be a strong defensive power. To me, people considering NZ are primarily thinking of 'how do I counter or make easier to kill unit of death A, B or C." The problem I see is that this is all it CAN do. This power does not assist in actually killing things directly (you cant NZ something to death) and it doesnt change the dynamics of the table (movement/position). As pointed out, you need a set of precursors and conditions to actually use the power to its fullest with at any stage something going wrong the power becomes in-effective. This is the real problem for me. Most players using said units of death are not going to expose the unit to the potential harm you have added in your list as a counter to them. It is simply too obvious as a response.

 

Idaho. As an experienced player, think of all the games you have played. In any single game has enemy INVUL saves been an issue or deciding factor in the game? or is it armour/cover saves that have more of an effect on the game?

 

EDIT : Looking at math hammer and/or theory hammer it is easy to get carried away. Think in real terms, you run HG. Does not having an invul save make the unit much less survivable than a terminator squad? I think the power in defense of a HG is similar to a terminator squad as the ability to deny most harm comes from the 2+ armour save, not the invul. Think about how important the invul is and then think how important it would be to make your enemy re-roll that invul save. Critical? hardly.

[LardO'Blood]

I don't think I am going to use nullzone for a long time. The only time I can foresee using it is when I play against Eldar because the offensive powers aren't that much of an improvement and a force weapon isn't that useful. I just find quickening, force weapons, MotA, gate, doom and smite all so useful in many circumstances. I can't justify using it instead of the force weapon against independent characters and I dont face many invulnerables.

[spartan249]

I personally never go without Null Zone because usually, Cover and Invulnerable Saves are the only things my opponents are ever getting against my attacks. While there's not much I can do about cover but tactical maneuvering, Invulnerable Saves are something I can soft counter with Null Zone, thus reducing my opponent's chances of negating my attacks. Thus, it's a great choice for me, as it improves my army's chances of successfully applying it's firepower to win the game.

 

Some people depend on lesser weapons to get the job done (Bolters, Flamers, Assault Cannons, etc), thus Armor and Feel No Pain come into the equation much more often. In these cases, NZ won't help as much as something like Vortex of Doom or The Avenger, as Null Zone will not have as many chances to be applied successfully.

[Captain Idaho]

Idaho. As an experienced player, think of all the games you have played. In any single game has enemy INVUL saves been an issue or deciding factor in the game? or is it armour/cover saves that have more of an effect on the game?

 

EDIT : Looking at math hammer and/or theory hammer it is easy to get carried away. Think in real terms, you run HG. Does not having an invul save make the unit much less survivable than a terminator squad? I think the power in defense of a HG is similar to a terminator squad as the ability to deny most harm comes from the 2+ armour save, not the invul. Think about how important the invul is and then think how important it would be to make your enemy re-roll that invul save. Critical? hardly.

 

Hmm, keeping my feet on the ground!

 

It's true I have never found Invulnerables to be a deciding factor in a game, barring Daemons in the ToS (2 separate players who just always make those pesky 5+ saves!) and my friend's Chaos Marines (sgt campbell in our warm up games for ToS) who pack far too many Daemon Princes and Obliterators. But these games I have played badly anyway, so any invulnerable saves issues have just looked more important than perhaps they were.

 

After careful consideration from all posters (many thanks everyone) I have decided the following:

 

I'm definitely on the side of the fence which believes the power isn't essential, though it would be a nice power to have as a back, as Wan said, to enhance some of my army's attributes (namely Honour Guard and the heavy weapons I am sporting).

 

If I have a spare power I might use it (i.e. a Librarian in a Rhino is not going to be getting any use out of MoA and Avenger in the same turn so I can tactically drop one for Null Zone) but if I ever think "I really fancy XX and XX power then I will drop NZ at a moment's notice!

 

We are now free to argue the generic benefits to NZ and not just how applicable they are to my own list!

[Br.Pat]

Good call Idaho. Personally I see NZ like insurance. And one that gives you a lot of moneh if you're unfortunate enough to need it.

 

Be sure to let us know how your games go and if you found NZ useful!

[DarkGuard]

Certainly after this thread I am more of the mind that my Libby with NZ is not as essential as I first thought. Which is good, because this should then see my Captain get more games, and with a hellfire bolter and relic blade he's perfect to lead my Sternguard into battle :lol:.