Night Lords question

[Trevak Dal]

After reading the index astartes on the Night Lords, it seems to indicate that the majority of them are made up of criminals...but I've read in other sources that many modern (and even pre-heresy Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus and Imperial Fists) inducted hive gang members into their ranks. How are they not criminals?

 

And surely with Konrad Curzes' influence, there should be more vigilante types than criminals?

 

I ask because I've decided to make my CSMs based around the Night Lords (was a toss up between them, the Alpha Legion and the Red Corsairs)

 

I ended up choosing the Night Lords because I like their background, and their primarch. I'm making fluff allowances for game mechanics (marks of Khorne, because I'm wanting an assault based army, Khorne beserkers, a singular daemon prince because fielding a monstrous flying creature is cool).

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Inasmuch as I consider the Index Astartes to be hopelessly outdated and, frankly, biased, the fact remains that because Nostramo was basically offering up the lowest and worst criminals into the ranks of the Night Lords was why Curze had Nostramo destroyed. In a similar fashion to how the Dark Angels ended up with a schism between Caliban-born and Terran-born rituals, traditions, personnel, etc., so too did the Night Lords end up with the vigilante fearmongers that followed Curze's vision, and the wretched murderers and gangsters like Acerbus that had their own idea of doctrine.

 

As it is, you can make yours as you see fit. If you prefer the Sahaal/Talos-esque Night Lords and not the Acerbus/Exalted-esque ones, then by all means craft your warband as such.

[Legatus]

After reading the index astartes on the Night Lords, it seems to indicate that the majority of them are made up of criminals...but I've read in other sources that many modern (and even pre-heresy Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus and Imperial Fists) inducted hive gang members into their ranks. How are they not criminals?

For one thing those gangers may be involved in gang wars or stealing/vandalism, but are not usually outright mass murderers who thrive on the suffering of others. These young gangers are chosen as aspirants because they have some fighting experience and survival skills.

 

But the indoctrination and training process back during the Great Crusade was also much less strict, as Legions had to replace large numbers of Marines quickly, and there probably was no real reason to assume that a quick and easy indoctrination would lead to problems. Of course, as the Horus Heresy later showed, the lack of carefull conditioning was in part responsible for some Legions' Marines being more susceptible to the influences of the dark gods. After the Heresy, the Codex Astartes included a much more thorough and strict doctrine for the training and indoctrination of new recruits.

[Brother Nihm]

Imagine a place with a very high crime rate, murder is the norm etc.

Now multiply it with a large industrialized planet and the population of its five cities.

Wreath that planet in complete darkness due to its proximity to a dying sun.

Pollute it heavily, oppress its workforce (as per Imperial standards) and suddenly you have criminals on your hands that make those of many other worlds seem like children - playing at being bullies.

Then give these loons godlike powers and well, fun ensues.

 

They are/were the very definition of the worst scum that humanity could produce.

[Shas'o R'Vre]

but I've read in other sources that many modern (and even pre-heresy Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus and Imperial Fists) inducted hive gang members into their ranks. How are they not criminals?

In Dawn of War II, Thaddeus is an ex-hive ganger. They are simply strong minded loyal individuals with fighting experience, who are indoctrinated into the Space Marine beliefs.

[isilvra]

I have thought about this a little myself. Curze needed people who could commit the worst sort of acts. He wanted Astartes that made the citizens of the Imperium so terrified of the consequences of rebellion and lawlessness it would be inconceivable to oppose the rule of the emperor. The criminals of his home world gave him those Astartes. I do find it odd though that so few of the night Haunters son's actually embraced his vision and instead used his campaigns as an excuses to bully and terrify with no real purpose other than self gratification.

 

Basically the legions influx of criminals was both it's greatest strength and it's major weakness.

[Bewlay]

In addition to destroying Nostramo. Cruze sent most of his legion on almost suicidal missions, just to destroy them.

If you read Soul Hunter you'll see that Konrad's connection to his legion was faulty at least. Thats because Cruze was a solitary creature, he was never ment to lead, he was ment to kill.

 

But the Night Lords got it off pretty bad, from all sides :wub:

[Candleshoes]

As Brother Nihm pointed out, the desparity of life quality between a pre-teen Imperial hive ganger, and of a pre-teen Nostraman is very large.

 

The hive ganger grows up in a dangerous atmosphere, different, but dangerous, than say a deathworld. No matter how terrible of a place or experience, they grow up in the shadow of the Imperium, or if we talk pre-heresy, the shadow of some government or ruling leader/body. Everything they do, is in excess of that lawform, but the fact that it exists, allows them to live outside of it, in a tiered, semi-organized way. Crime, vandalism, theft, violence, gang on gang murders, etc. They must live and operate in the world that the "World" around them allows to exist, the slums of the hive, the mining towns, the shipping container yards at the void lift, etc. What I am trying to say is that, they must be in, and must have control, or that World of laws will swallow them.

 

After Curze leaves on Crusade, Nostramo returns to the state it was before him, so the following can apply to both. Nostramo has no laws, save for the always shifting, always changing demands of powerful cartels or families who so happen to be "first among equals" amongst their peers. A pre-teen on Nostramo will live in fear every minute, of everyday, and that will drastically alter their mind. They are rapists or have beat, they are murderers for both self preservation, for revenge, for hire, for pleasure or for an organization. They steal to live, to eat, to work, because nothing else exists in place of the organizations that have been torn down by people wanting to control. The currency they know, other than another day of breath, is the suffering of others to live themselves. There are always bigger fish, and NO boundaries exist to reign those fish in.

 

Chaos is rampant in the cities. Think about that, it is almost inconceivable by us in the western world today, hiding behind the very laws that define what and how our lives, and the lives of other, are to be lived. Mankind living in that situation devolves, period. They become debased and lose what can be considered your soul. Ever see the television show Spartacus? The Pits. Lawless excess, degradation, crime, and violence are celebrated there, and it is visually horrifying. Its potential exists in all of us, but on Nostramo, it is life. Jewlery made of human body parts, wearing the severed faces of those who fall out of favor, human life means nothing, and because of that, there is no notion that anything other than that can be your primary focus. Every fibre of your being and growth till age 11 or 12 is this ... you are chosen as an aspirant ... you are an abomination that wears the name of human. You live in a world that has forgotten the fear a Primarch once showed, to remind humanity that they are better than this. This doesn't go away when you become a space marine, you are just allowed to give devastation a reason and a name, for the Primarch. There is no responsibility. There is no-one to provide control either.

 

All in all, when you say "Criminal", for most hive ganger recruits, it was a occupation or lifestyle they were born into, to some even a choice.

 

The word criminal would probably not even translate in Nostraman, there is too much order implied. These are the worst humans imaginable, barley deserving the name, and even less deserving to be palced in the same category of criminals and hive gangers.

[AekoldHelbrass]

Good thing about Warhammer - you can assume whatever you like. From one side - you can create warband from Nostraman gangers, making them so cruel that World Eaters will hide their faces in shame. From another - you can romantize them like Mr. Dembski-Bowden did. And the third way - you can say that Night Haunter himself forbid your lord-commander to take recruits from Nostromo. All 3 will be "fair enough", non of them must be "the only truth". I am rewriting background for my warband for the fifth time, trying to make it as interesting as possible and as believable as possible, assuming that Night Haunter was smart enough to prepare many-many roles for his sons. World would not be so interesting without Acerbus, Night Lords would not be so interesting without Zso Sahaal, novels would not be so interesting without Talos. Any roles you want will fit fine.

[starchild180]

Also to add in space hulk one of the blood angels was a hive ganger recruited for his ferocity, could be for a khrone style claw.

[Xeonic]

Well, "modern" loyalist Astartes are heavily psycho indoctrinated as well to make them ultimately controllable, and typical hive gangers most likely have the strength of will as well as body to make excellent marine neophytes. They have to be implanted at a very young age so it's unlikely they'd have committed serious crimes against the Imperium anyways, and if they did, the aforementioned "reprogramming" should take care of the character flaws, leaving the strength intact. For that matter that's probably also why the astartes also seem to make a habit of recruiting from feral, death, or feudal worlds, the harsh conditions or constant fighting makes the average recruit strong of mind and body.

[Yogi]

I always got the impression that while the haunter was keeping the peace most of the real scum was killed. And that after he left to lead his legion the planet returned to its normal state and the recruits got steadily worse.

 

So as I understand it you would have, terrans (could be anything), base line gangers from the pacified period and then finally you have the scum of the earth who have survived the power vacuum the night haunter left behind.

 

I always thought it was cliche/lame that gangers are so tough in the imperium. It makes sense in that nobody will miss them, but since marines dont seem to get hypno indoctrinated these days (well I never read about it anymore) your recruiting a bunch of malnourished, ill disciplined, narcotic addicted, bullies. Seems like a recipe for disaster. But this is 40k and Draigo can take a stroll through the warp no problem..

 

@xenoic where the latest mention of hypno indoctrination? I must of missed it

[Xeonic]

5 seconds of flipping through codex space marines to page 10 displays a brief mention of "hypnotherapy" in the "making of a space marine" section.

The BRB, page 132 only mentions "the rigors of strict discipline".

Index astartes volume one also mentions "hypnotic training" on page 7(I think it was page 7), though is maddeningly vague about the whole thing.

 

I could be mistaken on the subject looking through the resources I have available to me, and I may have picked that information up anywhere.

[Kevlarshark]

I think most Chapters use worlds where physical conditions are very challenging because it increases the odds of the recruit surviving the painful and brutal

implant process.

 

There is some fluff about the Legions using a process called psycho-surgery to alter the personality of recruits with some precision...

the World Eaters were censured for using it to turn their recruits into "frothing-madmen". Whether the surgery is as crude as hacking open

the initiates head is not mentioned... I imagine something more subtle, hypnotic,or even psychic intervention.

 

But it does seem that they can remake the recruits in body and mind...

[the jeske]

well the WE were using a more common version of the chrono gladiator upgrades Angron himself had . And it was more or less a lobotomisation . the psycho conditioning of recruits is something that loyalist started to do after the heresy .

But for example the SW do modify how the brain of recruits work in such a way that they feel better while fighting . The difference between their modifications and a WE one is that a WE only feels anything , if he is killing stuff.

[Yogi]

5 seconds of flipping through codex space marines to page 10 displays a brief mention of "hypnotherapy" in the "making of a space marine" section.

The BRB, page 132 only mentions "the rigors of strict discipline".

Index astartes volume one also mentions "hypnotic training" on page 7(I think it was page 7), though is maddeningly vague about the whole thing.

 

I could be mistaken on the subject looking through the resources I have available to me, and I may have picked that information up anywhere.

 

Ah ok it still exists.. cool.

[Decepticon Soundwave]

If we go by what Aaron Demski-Bowden has been writing as our new basis, because lets face it fluff gets changed. The Night Lords were basically all criminals because like what was said earlier Night Haunter kept the populace in fear and when he left the imperial rule was not as harsh. this is mainly because the arbites didn't hunt down criminals of all types and rip them to shreds with their bare hands and string up the corpses in the town square.

 

Now if one bases it on what Night Haunter was built to do it is a wonderful coincidence. Since The VIIIth were that legion at if your world rebelled they were sent and their rep would win the rebellion without firing a shot. That type of rep requires a cruelty beyond the pale. Now if you were stupid enough to shoot at them....well there is no way to fix stupid.

[Frater Uriah]

As Brother Nihm pointed out, the desparity of life quality between a pre-teen Imperial hive ganger, and of a pre-teen Nostraman is very large.

 

The hive ganger grows up in a dangerous atmosphere, different, but dangerous, than say a deathworld. No matter how terrible of a place or experience, they grow up in the shadow of the Imperium, or if we talk pre-heresy, the shadow of some government or ruling leader/body. Everything they do, is in excess of that lawform, but the fact that it exists, allows them to live outside of it, in a tiered, semi-organized way. Crime, vandalism, theft, violence, gang on gang murders, etc. They must live and operate in the world that the "World" around them allows to exist, the slums of the hive, the mining towns, the shipping container yards at the void lift, etc. What I am trying to say is that, they must be in, and must have control, or that World of laws will swallow them.

 

After Curze leaves on Crusade, Nostramo returns to the state it was before him, so the following can apply to both. Nostramo has no laws, save for the always shifting, always changing demands of powerful cartels or families who so happen to be "first among equals" amongst their peers. A pre-teen on Nostramo will live in fear every minute, of everyday, and that will drastically alter their mind. They are rapists or have beat, they are murderers for both self preservation, for revenge, for hire, for pleasure or for an organization. They steal to live, to eat, to work, because nothing else exists in place of the organizations that have been torn down by people wanting to control. The currency they know, other than another day of breath, is the suffering of others to live themselves. There are always bigger fish, and NO boundaries exist to reign those fish in.

 

Chaos is rampant in the cities. Think about that, it is almost inconceivable by us in the western world today, hiding behind the very laws that define what and how our lives, and the lives of other, are to be lived. Mankind living in that situation devolves, period. They become debased and lose what can be considered your soul. Ever see the television show Spartacus? The Pits. Lawless excess, degradation, crime, and violence are celebrated there, and it is visually horrifying. Its potential exists in all of us, but on Nostramo, it is life. Jewlery made of human body parts, wearing the severed faces of those who fall out of favor, human life means nothing, and because of that, there is no notion that anything other than that can be your primary focus. Every fibre of your being and growth till age 11 or 12 is this ... you are chosen as an aspirant ... you are an abomination that wears the name of human. You live in a world that has forgotten the fear a Primarch once showed, to remind humanity that they are better than this. This doesn't go away when you become a space marine, you are just allowed to give devastation a reason and a name, for the Primarch. There is no responsibility. There is no-one to provide control either.

 

All in all, when you say "Criminal", for most hive ganger recruits, it was a occupation or lifestyle they were born into, to some even a choice.

 

The word criminal would probably not even translate in Nostraman, there is too much order implied. These are the worst humans imaginable, barley deserving the name, and even less deserving to be palced in the same category of criminals and hive gangers.

This is an excellent explanation of why the Night Lords are what they are. I really like the idea of the word "criminal" not translating into Nostroman because it is impossible for such an idea to exist on such a horrid world bereft of all humanity. Simply excellent. My hat's off to you.