Tactica on how build a list

[antique_nova]

Many of those who browse around the blood angels and space wolves army lists section may have noticed me putting up my tactica for the past few months, well it's been half a year? Since i wrote the first part:

 

 

How to build an army lists for 1500 points specifically

 

First up, before we even start with the specifics, you must always start with the basics. What fifth edition is aiming at in terms of game play and how to pick units when taking in objective missions into mind! The reason for focusing on objective missions is because 2/3 of the missions are objectives. When considering units for kill point games, you show it through the types of squads you pick and what you quip them with.

 

The 40k millennium is in its 5th edition and before we go into the list building. The 5th edition is all about objectives, scoring units and killing things. 2/3 of the missions are objective based so it pays to have scoring units. It also pays to keep your kill point tally as low as possible while still keeping your army as shooty, assualty and/or deadly as possible.

 

This tactica isn't just for beginners, many 'experienced ' players still don't get this or understand it or dismiss it believe uber elite unit spam or a certain combo spam is the way for list building and game playing winningness. But it is perhaps the most important part of your army and the most important part when building your list when you’re trying to shift points around.

 

Before I begin, I would like to say that there is no perfect way to ever start an army list. I repeat there isn't a good or perfect way to start building a list. I prefer to do the troops choices first, but i also like to look through the entire codex and skim through it before even making a list. This makes sure that my mind is as open as possible and i can start finding combos, basic combos, before I begin. Obviously, I will talk about how to build an over all list later, but for now we concentrate on the troops

 

So with the troops, especially at 1500 point games. It pays to have 4 scoring units. In any list, not just 1500 points, your scoring units will need to fulfill at least one of these three roles:

 

• Objective sitting: (This unit is always contesting, well holding it, the objective that is placed near your deployment zone or in it)

This does not necessarily have to be a big squad, the squad can be a bog standard marine squad or a scout squad with snipers, try to keep them with long-range weaponry and don't try to max out the size of this unit for two purposes.

 

1st reason: You’re trying to stay in cover at the back which can be sparse sometimes and you don't want your enemy to be able to reach you in outflanking terms or be given a reason to shoot that squad with every thing they have. However, a small squad can tempt them to wipe this squad out first, due to small numbers. But due to small numbers, you can negate LOS to the enemy more often and if you have a space marine scout unit, TAKE CAMO CLOAKS. the number of times it has saved me from deep striking rapid fire weapons is too valuable to ignore. if you place them in a unit, it's like shooting a unit with a +2 invulnerable save.

 

2nd reason: Having a large squad just sucks your points up, if someone is able to take down a squad of 10 marines or equivalent then what are your chances of repelling such an attack anyway, without sending elements of your attacking force to help you? You will be over spending your points and sending even more back to wipe out the squad that killed your objective sitters.

 

Sancraer’s note: Durability for cheapness. It’s the reason people take sniper scouts

(Or something similar, says the author!). Even with long range, their weapons are rubbish. Yet at 100pts they can boast 5 T4 with 3+ cover(without going to ground with camo cloaks), which isn’t half bad. Durability can also be made up for with numbers, as long as they stay cheap (ish).

 

How many objective sitting squads will you need?

Only one, even if it's a minimal sized squad. As most games are won when played aggressively, play defensively and you’re aiming outlast the opponent which means your aiming for a draw or counter attack, you will want to advance up as much as possible to annihilate the enemy. However, with some races it's hard to keep only one objective squad there, which is fine. Guardsmen can get away with it, because…. well..... They’re guardsmen and they love firepower - this applies to other gun line armies too!

 

• Objective contesting: (This unit is always contesting an objective that is placed in between you and your opponent's deployment zone, it's usually placed in the middle line of the table and on larger tables, usually towards the side edge of the board)

 

The squads that contest for these objectives will need to be mobile or be able advance up to the middle of the table and be able to contribute to the spearhead force of your army, they should not be dedicated too much for assault as they will need to remain in the middle of the table near the objectives. So shooty units will work well here, but make sure that they have close combat support and are capable of holding assaults’ either alone or with units working with them. They don't need to be unit killers in close combat, just be able to hold up a round or assault from say a squad of seven marines and a sergeant with a fist.

 

Sancraer’s note: High mobility allows them to change objectives if they're about to be overrun.

 

These guys also need to be able to fulfill the roles of being an objective capturing and denial unit, should one of those types of scoring units be serverly depleted. As that depleted squad suddenly switches and takes the pace of being an objective contesting unit.

 

How many objective contesting squads will you need?

Well, I prefer to go with one, but two is fine.

 

• Objective capturing and denial: (These objectives are either very close to your opponent's deployment zone or in it)

 

Sancraer’s note: Essentially, these units need versatility, durability, and mobility for the cheapest amount of points possible. Too big and they become a target, too small and they’re useless at attacking.

 

Author’s note: Too big and your over spending on them too - in most cases! Mobility is the least important aspect of this unit type if you can assure yourself that you can get to grips with your foe very fast with drop pods etc.

 

Ok, so whatever unit that you choose to fulfil this role will need to be able to fulfil at least one of these functions, preferably several of them!

 

-------- Anti-monstrous creature - anti-mc: --------

Carnifexs, daemon princes, avatar, wraithlord and hive tyrants. Generally units with high toughness with lots of wounds, they don't normally have very amazing armour saves, but they make it up with sheer number of wounds and high toughness and usually high initiative.

 

What counters them?

High strength weapons, but especially ones that ignore armour saves. Also weapons with high strength that pour out lots of shots help too! Like:

• Plasma gun

• Missile launcher

• Autocannon

• Multi-laser

• Melta gun

 

-------- Anti-terminator or equivalent - anti-termi:--------

Terminators, ork nobz and characters who don't usually get mentioned, but they would fall under this category or anti-mc. They usually have lots of wounds, usually 3 or 4 or even 5 and their armour and invulnerable saves are usually top notch or near enough.

 

What counters them?

 

- The ones that have higher armour saves!

Generally against terminators you use weapons that can fire a lot of shots and wait for the terminators to fall due to the vast amount of amour saves that they have to make. So any weapon that has a lot of shots will do, the strength of the the weapon doesn't matter a massive amount usually for this purpose.

 

- For multi-wound units and units with Feel No Pain!

For ork nobz equivalents, anything that is double their strength and ignores armour saves as the sheer amount of wounds doesn't usually kill them off as well as terminators.

 

-------- Anti-tank--------

Anything that isn’t organic! When thinking about tanks try to think of vehicles with armour values or 13 or 14 most of the time. When thinking about anti-tank, try to think that you will be hitting the front armour most of the time and you will be able to build a list that is better at dealing with tanks than most other armies!

 

Tanks are split into two categories, believe it or not, into light and heavy.

Light tanks: Troop transports and generally anything with an armour value or 12 or less. Such as a rhino, drop pod, chimera or an ork truck. However, not all tanks that have armour values of 12 are considered light tanks.

 

Tanks that defy the law!

However, there are such vehicles can have upgrades that make them ridiculously hard to kill and defy the category of being in the light tank section. Such tanks are:

 

Eldar holofields: Makes you re-roll on the damage table with two dice! And you pick the lowest. There is a venerable version from the space marines, which makes you re-roll the dice on the damage table.

 

Landing gear: Is apparent in a few races and allows you to ignore immobilise results, when you have moved and prevents you from crashing.

 

Smoke launchers: Make the vehicle obscured, which gives them a decent cover save! However, some chapters still have the old upgrade where they can downgrade penetrating hits to glancing hits, but they don’t confer a cover save like the newer smoke launchers with give you a +4 cover save.

 

Smart vehicles: Ones that hide 50% of themselves behind terrain or behind another unit.

 

Finally, any fast vehicle that is a skimmer can move flat out and it gives the tank a decent cover save! It isn’t an upgrade, but it’s a handy type of tank!

 

What counters them?

 

(All light vehicles, whether they have upgrades or not!)

Anything thing that is strength 6, in close combat strength 5 or even 4 in some cases is sufficient, but strength 6 weapons and anything higher are preferable.

 

Heavy tanks: Can also be troop transports and have dual roles, such as the ork battle wagon and the space marine land raider.

 

Walkers!

There is a sub category, walkers. Some walkers are monstrous creatures, but some are not. Such monsters are ork deff dreads and killa kans, as well as space marine and chaos space marine dreadnoughts.

What counters them?

Any weapons that are strength eight preferably, but strength seven is fine for armour values of 13, generally you want weapons that are strength 8 or above all the time so that you can deal with armour values of 14 more easily.

 

Author hints and tips:

Weapons with armour piercing value, AP, of 1 can boost their damage on the vehicle damage chart table.

 

Melta weapons are feared throughout the game as they allow you to add an extra D6 to the strength of your weapon, especially if your melta weapon is within half the range of the targeted vehicle, but beware some weapons negate this like the dreaded necron monolith!

 

Lance weapons are useful here too! They help to reduce the armour value of any tank that they are facing to 12, however some tanks such as the Necron monolith, the few others with certain upgrades can negate such effects! In fact, they are the only vehicles in the game that can do so!

 

Warning!

However, there are tanks that even defy the heavy tank category. One such tank is the monolith; well it’s the only tank, which has the rules to nearly ignore all of my tips above. The only true way to destroy them is with weapons that have a strength 8 value AND with an AP value of 1. Weapons that are strength 9 or over can bypass this juggernought’s armour and I have been lucky with my lascannons to be able to do such a thing and destroy it on turn 1 with a multi-melta and a lascannon from across the board.

 

-------- Anti-marine equivalent - anti-meq --------

This term refers to anything that has an armour save like a space marine, which is 3+, and a toughness of 4.

 

What counters them?

 

- The ones that have higher armour saves!

Generally against meqs you use weapons that can fire a lot of shots and wait for the meqs to fall due to the vast amount of amour saves that they have to make. So any weapon that has a lot of shots will do and if you face a meq army, they are usually low in numbers. This is usually in the region of 20-35, but even if they have a lot more than that, I would still recommend using weapons that can produce a lot of shots or attacks and over power such meq units.

 

Author hints and tips:

When shooting meqs, one tips over rides the all. When you shoot it, concentrate all fire on them! Yes, shoot that squad to nothing or at least incapacitate them to but a few men that aren’t crazy killing machines that can chew entire squads in one turn! Remember, shooting isn't just the only way close combat helps too!

 

Some meq units can have the rule, Feel No Pain that allows them to revive the lost wound on a +4. To bypass the Feel No pain, any weapon that has a strength that is double the toughness of the opponent or always ignores armour saves. (ONLY AP1 -2 weapons always ignore armour saves, AP 3, 4, 5 don't, they just ignore the armour value that is displayed on their weapons AP stats.

(So weapons that become rending, power weapons and weapons that have an AP value or 1 or 2 or some other special rule that always ignores armour saves)

 

-------- Anti-horde (Can also be anti-infantry)--------

One of the biggest headaches or the game, just because there are so many of the little buggers! Examples are gretchins, hormagaunts, termagaunts, imperial guardsmen and orks. And it doesn’t stop there too, as it becomes even more hairy if they have any one of the following rules benefited upon them:

 

Special rules:

- Feel No pain, they might as well have extra wounds!

- Fearless, they never run off the field or flee!

- Swarm, this increases their cover save by one……. (Spamming gretchins with +3 cover save anyone?)

 

General rules:

Cover, as their armours saves are usually awful!

There are two types of horde:

 

Large mobs: Ones that are shown in great numbers and with a wound each. Orks guardsmen, termagaunts and hormagaunts fall into this category.

 

Multi-wounds: Generally, they occupy less space than the mobs and have more wounds per model, but they have low toughness. Tyranid ripper swarms and nurglings fall here.

 

What counters them?

 

Thankfully, they are very weak in terms of armour saves and toughness and can be instant killed easily. To kill hordes generally, anything that can cause a lot of wounds, rapid-fire weapons, and low strength weapons can come into play very well here. Your best friend here however, is the flamer weapon or any weapons that uses a template or just assault them with superior units!

 

Templates: Ignore cover, auto-hit what they touch, even partial models. Can usually wound hordes with 50%+ chance and usually have an AP value that can ignore the blighter’s armour saves!

 

The second best being the rapid fire weapon like bolters, lasguns. Anything that is short range and puts a lot of shots in!

 

Killing multi-wounded hordes:

For those multi-wound buggers, strength 6 weapons tend to kill them outright; anything that has a higher strength value is welcomed. Also, when shooting at hordes, you don’t need to worry about the AP of your weaponry, because the hordes usually have rubbish armour saves to account for your lack of AP anyway!

 

How many objective denial and capturing squads will you need?

I like to go with two minimum, but one is pushing it, no matter how powerful or deadly that squad is. Because they can be tar pitted with another unit of the majority of the game, for example a unit of 50 guardsmen with a commissar.

 

Author hints and tips:

However, to build a list that can do well in objective games, your objective denial & capturing units must be able to switch roles with your objective-contesting units. As they will relatively close to each other during the game, well in most games anyway.

 

Your objective contesting units must be able to convert into objective denial & capturing units to help plug the hole in case one of your units dies and vice versa -during the game. This is very useful if one of your squads is depleted and you can have those units switch roles to keep your game going your way and help you to press home your attack on the enemy.

 

Here’s a quick summary of what the units should be and be able to do:

 

Objective sitting: Small, shooty and supportive with either bonuses that directly or indirectly affect the enemy.

 

Examples:

 

Space marines

4x Space marine scouts

1x Veteran sergeant scout

4x Sniper rifle

1x Missile launcher

5x Camo-cloak

 

Tyranids

3x Tyranid warriors

2x Devourers

1x Barbed strangler

 

Eldar

5x Eldar pathfinders

 

Chaos space marines

5x Plague marines

2x Plasma guns

 

Dark eldar

3x Wrack

- transport -

1x Raider

1x Dark lance

 

Objective contesting: Fairly large, or medium size, some shooty potential and some close combat potential. They are usually bigger in numbers if close combat ability is weak.

 

Orks

20x ork boyz

17x shootas

2x Big shootas or rokkit launchers

1x Nobz

1x Power klaw

- attachment -

1x Big mek

1x Force field

- in a battlewagon or not at all-

 

Space wolves

7x Grey hunters

1x Melta gun

1x Power fist

1x Wolf standard

- attachment -

1x Wolf guard

1x Combi-melta

1x Thunder hammer

- in a drop pod or some vehicle -

 

Chaos space marines

7x Chaos space marines (or Plague marines)

1x Melta gun (2x plasma or melta gun)

1x Aspiring champion

1x Power fist

- attachment -

1x Chaos sorceror

1x Mark of slaneesh

1x Familiar

1x Doombolt

1x Lash of submission

- transport -

1x Rhino

 

Objective denial and capturing: Same as above, but they must excel in one of their areas and utilising race specific items can usually help make your unit much more deadly. Such as wolf standards for space wolves, toxin sacs for tyranids etc.

 

If you have followed these three key points for objective sitting; objective contesting and objective denial & capturing. Then you have a solid core and foundation to which to build your army upon! Whichever way you choose to build your list is up to you, but this is usually the stage in which most players can differ and find it difficult to utilise the races maximum potential.

 

Finally, you may also want to know how the scoring unit system works.

This is my trusty layout.

 

The scoring unit layout for points is.

 

500 points - next 250 points add something killy.

750 points - next 250 add scoring unit

1000 points - next 250 points add something killy.

1250 points - next 250 add scoring unit

1500 points - next 250 points add something killy.

1750 points - next 250 add scoring unit

2000 points

 

That’s how i work.

 

500 points - 2 scoring units

1000 points - 3 scoring units

1500 points - 4 scoring units

2000 points - 5 scoring units

 

Due to past success and the spare time that i have recently found and the thirst, i will be continuing my lengthy tactica and would like appreciate any input on how to improve the way i deliver my advice and any faults that i may have missed or input that i have forgotten to include.

 

 

 

 

 

WIP below

 

 

 

 

Now that you an idea of what will need for you troops, it’s time to focus on the leaders who will be leading and directing your army.

 

First things first, there are two types of generals:

 

• Boss: The ones who lead to set out an example throw showy displays of pure skill whether it be in close combat or spells that mystify the greatest combatants out their! They are in many ways the toughest and deadliest combatant in the army.

 

Many examples include:

- Bloodthirster

- Khârn the betrayer

- Mephiston

- Lelith Hesperax

 

• Buffers: These combatants are more balanced in their abilities and not only lead their armies but also try to improve their armies through some ‘buffer’ skills or bonus. They try to indirectly affect the opponent by bolstering one particular aspect of their army; these guys are primarily buffers and lack the ability to do as much damage as an elite troop.

 

Examples include:

- Big mek who let’s you take more killer kanz

- Big mek with custom force field

- Imperial guard officer

 

• Leaders: However there some who try to strike as much a balance as possible between the two types above. These types are what I refer to as ‘Leaders’ for they truly lead their armies in more balanced ways than a ‘Boss’ or ‘Buffer’.

 

Such examples are:

- Pedro Kantor who gives surrounding units an extra attack

- Hive tyrant with adversary aura that allows his warriors to better fight against any enemy thrown at them in close combat.

- Swarmlord

- The Sanguinor

 

Now that we have established the three types of generals, it’s time to focus on their methods; remember their stats and bonuses define their roles not their methods which are defined by their weapons and skills.

 

The three types are:

 

• Offensive: Are by far the most common doctrines taken on by generals. These guys use their own superior skills in any form to calve a hole in the enemy army.

 

For instance:

- Ork warboss

- Abandon

- A space marine commander

 

• Defensive: These guys are as rare as real promises within the 40k universe, they are made to last not to made to kill. These guys favour protection over death, with fancy doges and techno wizardry – their defensive capabilities far exceed their offensive capabilities and they are exceedingly hard or time consuming to kill.

 

Examples include:

- Big mek with custom force field (It would obviously be in a mob of orks)

- Fateweaver

- Commissar Yarrick

 

• Balanced:

These guys try to strike a balance between the two previous types, offensive and defensive. They will have enough durability to suffer nasty weapons, while at the same time be able to dish out as much punishment as they can take.

 

Examples:

- Space marine chapter master and a power fist

- Archon with shadow field and Husk blade

- Wolf lord with storm shield and the immune to instant kill oath, plus terminator armour or a thunder wolf mount if they feel like it.

- Ghazghull with his waaagh

- Wolf lord with storm shield on a thunder wolf and with a power fist

- The Sanguinor

 

thanks

antique_nova

[antique_nova]

Updated the types of generals and changed the format slightly to fit the first part of the tactica. Comments and criticism anyone?

[DarkGuard]

Seems all right, nothing too new if you don't mind me saying that. However, with some work it can be a handy document to help people with list building.

 

Just a couple of pointers. I think you've overdone the emphasis on scoring units. Some armies don't have powerful scoring units, like Space Marines, and their best cost effective killing power comes from elsewhere. Now in objectives game, you only need to control one objective, and contest the rest. Therefore, 2 scoring units are fine, a 3rd one is cool, but more than that and you're spending too much. Also remember that any mission can be won through annihilation, you're opponent can't win if he has nothing.

 

Furthermore, I'd suggest reading through it a few times. At times it could be hard to follow, like around the tank section when you skipped from heavy armour, to light armour, back to heavy armour, then onto walkers without telling us how to tackle heavy armour. And about walkers, strength 7 is not fine for armour 13, it will do near enough nothing.

 

I'd mention Sternguard or at least massed hellfire rounds when talking about anti-MC. Massed bolter fire struggles. Massed bolter that wounds on a 2+, on the other hand, doesn't.

 

I wouldn't be so quick to write off plasma and melta in regards to killing Terminators and Marines. Truth be told, massed bolter fire is only most effective when they're in cover. When out of cover I'd prefer to shoot them with plasma and demo cannons, wounds easily and removes their saves, I try to limit the amount of times my opponent has to roll dice (unless it's a psychic power).

 

I'd also check some of your facts. You've put down that Dark Angel Land Raiders ignore lance, and that Black Templars do. This is strictly speaking false. Black Templar and Dark Angel Land Raiders do not come with the ability to ignore lance weapons. However, Black Templar Land Raider Crusaders (not Phobos) can be upgraded with Blessed Hull for 25pts, which ignores the effects of lance. If this upgrade is not taken, then they do not ignore lance, as simple as that.

 

This looks promising, and I agree with some points, like 100pt units of Scouts. However, it needs a bit more proofreading and a bit more work. Furthermore, you don't really seem to go into all the possibilities of dealing with different types of threats, instead you just give what you consider is the best or your favourite. As a player, I'd prefer to see many different ways and decide for myself.

 

Just out of interest, have you read Warp Angel's Killhammer articles? Or Jackelope King's recent Tenets of War articles. You may find some similar opinions there in list building that could interest you. Warp Angel's in particular made be reconsider how I play the game, while JKs are a very informative and stimulating read, including his ideas of how to downgrade heavy vehicles to light. I'd thoroughly recommend having a look if you haven't already done.

 

Keep up the work, would be nice to have a summary on the best way to deal with threats to fit in with all other guides and articles ^_^.

[antique_nova]

It doesn't matter if it isn't new, people will always write this sort of thing, so expecting something new shouldn't be high on the list.

 

If i went through all the different possibilities on dealing with a certain role then i would have pages just talking about how to deal with anti-mc XD. I try to pick the ones that work most effectively. I noticed some of the info was off, but i missed them, will work on them later.

 

thanks

antique_nova

[nurglephill]

Just out of interest, have you read Warp Angel's Killhammer articles? Or Jackelope King's recent Tenets of War articles. You may find some similar opinions there in list building that could interest you. Warp Angel's in particular made be reconsider how I play the game, while JKs are a very informative and stimulating read, including his ideas of how to downgrade heavy vehicles to light. I'd thoroughly recommend having a look if you haven't already done.

 

Hi DarkGuard. Can I ask, where are these articles? I would love to read them!!

[bystrom]

Tenets of War

First Killhammer thread

Warp angel has several killhammer threads, best is to go to one of them and then check the sig, where the rest are linked.

[DarkGuard]

Tenets of War

First Killhammer thread

Warp angel has several killhammer threads, best is to go to one of them and then check the sig, where the rest are linked.

 

Cheers Bystrom! :)

 

nurglephill, I'd highly recommend taking the time to read all of them, they are fantastic. As JKs is still a work in progress, I'd recommend reading Killhammer first. Plus, Warp Angel himself has said that JKs thoughts build a lot on what he's written, so would be a good reading order as well.

[nurglephill]

Many many thanks guys ;)