Fast attack

[Liam101]

Hi all,

 

My current list contains 2 Vindicators and a Combi-pred, Sternguard and 2 Dreadnoughts (i.e. all Elite and Heavy Support slots are taken)

 

My question is this, why would anybody take Fast Attack over the other two choices? Obviously they are sound choices, but I seem to have the inability to realise this.

 

What are their uses, what can they do better than Heavies and Elites, and what situations would it be better to have Fasts over the other choices (in a generic setting, as opposed to specific armies) ?

 

I really want to utilize Fast Attack, they fit the Space Marine ethos perfectly and from reading the boards they are a cornerstone in many peoples lists, but I just can't bring myself to see them as any more than lightly armoured suicide units... Prove me wrong?

 

Thanks in advance guys,

 

Liam

[Ming]

The secret is list building is all about personal style and preference. Elite/Heavy lists have no more vindication in the win category than fast attack. It is all about preference and the theme of your list. Third Company is also heavy on elite and heavy choices and does OK. Sometimes it is more balanced, and also does as well. I've never run it fast-focused, for the most part due to a limited model collection.

 

As for fluff, considering access to pods, hawks, and teleportation, why would a SM force use bikes at all? Jump packs, sure. Bikes? People use them because they are in the codex and are T5. In building a company, I'd rather go with 5 landspeeders than 10 bikers. But again, its my preference....

[Iron Father Rik]

The secret is list building is all about personal style and preference. Elite/Heavy lists have no more vindication in the win category than fast attack. It is all about preference and the theme of your list. Third Company is also heavy on elite and heavy choices and does OK. Sometimes it is more balanced, and also does as well. I've never run it fast-focused, for the most part due to a limited model collection.

 

As for fluff, considering access to pods, hawks, and teleportation, why would a SM force use bikes at all? Jump packs, sure. Bikes? People use them because they are in the codex and are T5. In building a company, I'd rather go with 5 landspeeders than 10 bikers. But again, its my preference....

 

^ This. Ming pretty much hit the nail on the head there.

 

All I'd like to add is this: The clue is in the name: fast attack. These units are generally faster moving and more maneouverable than heavy support units, which are slower, but have better armour on the whole. If your army requires some speed, or your personal preference for gaming is to have faster, more maneouverable units, then the fast attack section is where you look.

[Meatman]

As a Raven guard player, I love fast attack slots.

 

I always end up maxing out my FA slots because they are so awesome.

 

 

 

Typhoons = win

LSS and scouts = underestimated win

Assault marines = Awesome

Scout bikers = win with T5

 

I never use HS where I don't have to. I don't like HS at all, much rather have more FA slots.

[Iron Father Rik]

Scout bikers = win with T5

 

^^^This!

[Tech Brother Torgo]

I really want to utilize Fast Attack, they fit the Space Marine ethos perfectly and from reading the boards they are a cornerstone in many peoples lists, but I just can't bring myself to see them as any more than lightly armoured suicide units... Prove me wrong?

 

Land speeder typhoons! Plenty of firepower at long range and the ability to move and shoot, something the predator severely lacks. With a heavy bolter you can move 12" and still fire frags and the bolter or just krak, which gives you a larger threat radius as well as the ability to maneuver over/around terrain to keep your range and get some cover saves. They may be fragile, but I've been having some success lately by pairing them with closer range armor like vindicators that draw more of the anti-tank while the fast elements reposition and strike.

[spartan249]

If you ask me, there's nothing to prove. You use units that you know will mesh with your style of warfare, and that's it.

 

Fast Attack units are only suicide units if you try to use them like you would use Elites/Heavy Support units. Think harassment, hit and run, sniping, isolation of enemy forces, and you won't be far away from finding uses for fast attack units like Bikers or Land Speeders.

[Trel]

I don't play a particularly "fast" style, but I still use Fast Attack choices.

 

The classic Chaplain-lead Assault Squad is one of the best counter-attack units in the game and I use them all the time to intercept units that may be converging on a small unit of Scouts or a Combat Squad holding an objective.

 

Multi-melta Attack bikes can be found ranging ahead of any of my dedicated close-combat units or sacrificing themselves popping a much-more expensive tank.

 

Since I've started using more long-range anti-tank in my lists, I've been experimenting with cheap Land Speeders equipped with nothing but a Heavy Flamer. I have one run alongside my Assault Squad and lay an S5 template down to soften-up anything they're about to hit.

[Captain Idaho]

Landspeeders are the only thing I want from the Fast Attack category really. Storms and Scout Bikers would be nice but don't fit my preferred style.

 

To me, FA is a source of cheap firepower for Marines, plain and simple. Typhoons are excellent and fit into most lists, whilst MM platform Landspeeders perform a hunter killer role. Some people use Attack Bikers here.

 

Alone out of all choices in the army, FA can fill a role of Assault force if you want, specialist Alpha Strikers or firepower boosts. Evaluate what your army needs and choose accordingly. Either fill a gap or reinforce a capability.

[TyrionTheImp]

Fast Attack has many uses, however one always stands out to me the most: Fast Melta.

 

For cheap you can get MM/HF Speeders, or Attack Bikes, both of which are great in this role. I personally prefer MM/HF speeders because they can deep strike if I so desire, and even mentioning that puts people off sometimes. However, Attack Bikes are fun to hide behind rhinos because you can pop out, slag a transport, and have your Marines rapid-fire the unit inside.

 

Typhoons are awesome and all, but their role can be filled by other things in the Elite (Rifleman dreads) and HS (combi-pred) slots. I'd really only use them if I wanted something else in the Elite or HS slots.

 

I don't find Assault Squads often doing their points worth when I use them, despite how awesome they look. Key is just don't be overaggressive with them.

 

Vanguard are...well Vanguard, there's enough threads about how to and how not to use them. I've never used them.

 

I've never used Scout Bikers either, they look like they could be fun to use, but not sure how it'd work out if you're looking for a competitive choice.

[Iron Father Rik]

I've never used Scout Bikers either, they look like they could be fun to use, but not sure how it'd work out if you're looking for a competitive choice.

 

I use Scout Bikers in my tournament army. They work brilliantly! Speeding on from the side and wiping a unit off an objective, or scouting and getting a first turn charge, powerfisting a tank, (like a blowing up a Leman Russ, then proceeding to kill two more Chimeras, a squad and a command squad...)

[Luis_CC]

Hi all,

 

My current list contains 2 Vindicators and a Combi-pred, Sternguard and 2 Dreadnoughts (i.e. all Elite and Heavy Support slots are taken)

 

My question is this, why would anybody take Fast Attack over the other two choices? Obviously they are sound choices, but I seem to have the inability to realise this.

 

What are their uses, what can they do better than Heavies and Elites, and what situations would it be better to have Fasts over the other choices (in a generic setting, as opposed to specific armies) ?

 

I really want to utilize Fast Attack, they fit the Space Marine ethos perfectly and from reading the boards they are a cornerstone in many peoples lists, but I just can't bring myself to see them as any more than lightly armoured suicide units... Prove me wrong?

 

Thanks in advance guys,

 

Liam

 

It depends on quantity. By the cost of a dread with extra-armour and HF, you can take 2LS with HF and MM. Which unit is more survivable? It is not so clear.

 

Fast attack can be used to include units that can move 60cm, which is critical in order to contest objetives.

Bikes can use "hit and run", whick offers important tactical options.

 

The problem of Fast attack is that the importance of "movement" can´t be as easily analized as power weapons, armour, invulnerable save or special ammo effect; furthermore, fast attack units tend to be more difficult to use. For example, a vindi does not offer as many tactical options are scout bikes (infiltrate, scout, hit and run, turboboost), and the same happens with a LR and a 3LS typhoon squadron (DS, defensive weapons, turboboost).

[Captain Idaho]

The problem of Fast attack is that the importance of "movement" can´t be as easily analized as power weapons, armour, invulnerable save or special ammo effect; furthermore, fast attack units tend to be more difficult to use. For example, a vindi does not offer as many tactical options are scout bikes (infiltrate, scout, hit and run, turboboost), and the same happens with a LR and a 3LS typhoon squadron (DS, defensive weapons, turboboost).

 

I agree. Many internet approved killer lists are built purely on a basis of what you can kill in comparison to what the individual component parts of the army costs in points. I actually rate units on other factors as well, such as where they are on the table and where they can go in XX turns.

 

Typhoons are awesome and all, but their role can be filled by other things in the Elite (Rifleman dreads) and HS (combi-pred) slots. I'd really only use them if I wanted something else in the Elite or HS slots

 

Well I would dispute this. Typhoons fill a role greater than Rifleman Dreadnoughts and combi-Predators, or any other choice therein. They are much more mobile and able to squadron to keep up a torrent of fire every turn until destruction. They also are actually better armed for the points cost since they can fire their heavy bolters along with the frag missiles whilst still moving 12", and move 6" and fire Krak and Heavy Bolters (MCs and light Transports watch out!).

 

In addition to having superior firepower and ability to project it every turn, they also have the capcity to rush forward and contest objectives late game, which no Elite or Heavy support unit can do.

 

They are the ultimate Marine vehicle as they epitomise Space Marines nicely by mirroring their vesatility.

[waaanial00]

For me most evaluations over the webz is very shallow. Fast Attack choices are generally quicker and more fragile than most Heavy Support choices which tend to be tougher and more static. However thats a massive generalisation.

 

In terms of why you should include Fast Attack, well you shouldnt. No honestly no-one should include anything in their list above 2 troops and an HQ. Why you might want to can only be found by analysing what your list has, what it lacks and how you play it. You should additionally check to see what your opponent is likely to bring, their play style etc however usually thats next to impossible in pickup games and if you dont know them quite well its difficult even in prearranged.

 

For me Landspeeders fill a vital role that is quite lacking anywhere else in the codex. Fast mobile heavy weapons on "cheap" vehicles. If you have a look anywhere else you will fail to find this in Elite and Heavy Support. Dreadnoughts arent especially cheap or fast, Rhino template vehicles are either lightly armed, relatively expensive or have severe reduction in firepower if they move.

 

MM Landspeeders are heavy hitting extremely nimble vehicles (ignoring all terrain is an absolute bonus). Typhoon speeders are mobile missile batteries which only cost 90 points and you can take up to three for a single FOC choice. Both of these are more than capable of winning objective games by powering onto captured objectives from 24" away.

 

However thats only a really shallow analysis. To say that a Dreadnought is an easy replacement for a Typhoon is somewhat inaccurate. Sure they may perform the same battlefield tasks however they can do so in vastly different ways, each with their inherent pros and cons depending on your play style and other choices.

 

So if your list is performing what you want adequately then ignore the choices. However if you find yourself slow or sluggish on the table where others are able of out manouvering you AND this is a problem for you (just because it happens doesnt mean you should be worried about it if you are able to cope) then you would do far worse than considering the use of Fast Attack elements.

 

The fact that you posted here means that you are either worried that you are missing out or your rethinking your list because it doesnt seem to be doing as well as you hoped.

[Liam101]

I think that I am potentially missing out yes,

 

I thought this would be a helpful thread for both me and other new players who look at the "big guns" without looking at the more tactically versatile fast attack units.

 

It might have been helpful for me to point out that my Dreadnoughts are Multi-melta dreads in drop pods, looking at their shooting role at a cost of... 140 points? (Pod + Dread, I haven't got my codex handy at the moment) When for a cheaper price I could fit more MM attack bikes, MM speeders etc into the list and possibly another cheeky scoring unit?

 

In putting my Dreads in pods do I already show signs of fast attack envy? :D

[waaanial00]

Ok so now I have some frame of reference about where you are coming from I can contribute a little more.

 

So assuming that you are putting MM Dreads in pods I assume your usual plan is throw them down the opponents throat and kill a tank? Hey it works so why not?

 

your podded dreads do other things for your list other than kill tanks as well. They provide an immediate threat which your opponent needs to react to, it also provides some medium grade armour for the opponent to target as well.

 

With this in mind the cons of doing this is that the dreadnought itself isnt that effective at killing armour every time. This is due to the fact that it is a single shot and cant be followed up with assault. It also provides 2 moderately challenging kill points directly on your opponents door step, they dont really have to work that hard to kill them.

 

Now what could this be replaced with from the Fast attack pool?

 

2 x MM/HF speeders. High speed units which are flexible enough to cover armour and infantry targets. Now they arent immediately available for tank hunting on turn 1 given normal circumstances, which means their effect on turn 1 isnt an "active" one, its either preparation or interferrance. Deep striking could mean they are available close to when they are needed from turn 2.

 

Pros of doing this:

 

- More shots than Dreadnought

- More mobile than Dreadnought

- Less suceptible to one shot killing the "active" portion (Dread and Pod being made up of Active - Dread and Passive - Pod units)

- More mobile and potentially greater options in late game

- Reduction in negative terrain effects

 

Cons of doing this:

 

- Speeders are logically weaker to attacks than Dreadnought as they have less armour. Though they will potentially start off further away and therefore against stuff like melta are out of range from the first turn. They also place a greater emphasis on maintaining their mobility than the dread.

- Speeders have no positive contribution in the Assault Phase.

- Lack of first turn pressure

- Reduction on objective contesting from turn 1, due to the pod potentially disrupting objective on landing (however this is small and can be mitigated by the strength of Speeders ability to contest later on due to greater speed).

 

 

2 Attack bikes with MM. Greater speed and flexibility of options IMO. Change to infantry meaning they are more prone to damage from non anti tank weapons, however they cannot be Stunned into silence like a vehicle.

 

Pros

 

- More shots and a more accurate anti infantry shooting option.

- More mobility throught the game

- Better protection when moving fast

- Less negative effects from weapons S7 or less (these can only do a wound, they cannot potentially slay outright or make the unit unusable)

- Not slowed by terrain (though potentially killed)

- More attacks in combat (though less effective)

 

Cons

 

- Less impact in combat, though they can use combat tactics

- Terrain is potentially lethal and they cant climb buildings

- Affected by standard shooting

- Can be broken

- Less first turn pressure

 

 

And so on. I dont have the time to do all the options, however the next one would be the Typhoon. It essentially covers anti tank and anti infantry in a different way due to its weapons not being melta. Means it can challenge armour from much further away but doesnt have the +1 damage edge.

 

There are of course other FA options available.

[Wildfire]

It's a personal taste thing. Personally, I almost never take elites, and the only thing I really like in C:SM heavy slots are vindis. FA, however, I'm always struggling to find slots for. There's just so much good stuff in FA that I can't fit it all in, even with a biker captain.

 

Personally, I think the best thing about FA are multi-melta attack bikes. These things, point for point, are probably the best anti-tank in any codex (possibly excepting Broadsides). If there's two underpointed units in C:SM, it's th/ss termies and MM attack bikes.

[JamesI]

I started playing BA years ago because that was the only way to get enough fast attack slots in a list. Before that, I used the 4th edition marine codex traits to make assault marines elites so I could get assault marines and attack bikes and landspeeders in a list.

 

Attack bikes are in my opinion the best anti-Land Raider and other large tanks unit available to marines.

 

Land Speeder Typhoons are great, though overall I prefer the attack bikes. Typhoons can provide great versatility with the ability to move 6 and fire a heavybolter and krak missiles at a target or move 12 and fire just krak or the heavy bolter and frag missiles.

 

I'm not a big fan of bikes other than attack bikes, but its pretty easy for me to fill my fast attack slots (without spending a lot of points) on attack bikes and Typhoons.

 

I rarely touch elites, and pretty much the only heavy I use is Vindicators.

[Br.Pat]

Imho the main advantage of Fast Attack choices is the ability to bring fast Melta to the front line. FA are very cost-effective at doing this.

[DarkGuard]

I very much agree with Captain Idaho and Waaanial00. Fast Attack aren't needed, but they do help. The two greatest things found here are fast melta and Typhoons. I've been taking either MM/HF Speeders or MM ABs for a while now, but only recently have I rediscovered Typhoons having used Rifleman Dreads for so long. They do similar things in a different manner. Dreads struggle against better armour more, and can't get side shots on those Preds and battle wagons, unlike a Typhoon. They also struggle against anti-infantry. There's nothing like laying down 4 frag templates and then firing your heavy bolters, it can clear away entire squads better than a demolisher cannon. I'm now finding it hard to fit Typhoons into my list alongside my Vindys and Rifleman, but they are that good that I want to field them again.

 

Word of warning, IMO Typhoons work best when squadroned, while fast melta can work ok separate. Reason being is I don't know, but sometimes you want to split melta fire, while with Typhoons if you want to take something out you really do need to shoot it all at the same target.

 

The best thing in the end about Fast Attack is the ability to take some variation from the usual, ponderous units we have. They move faster than heavy support choices, and can still make a mess of things. Manage them properly and their frailty shouldn't be such a big deal. Best of luck with them, I hope you find what you were looking for in Fast Attack and that it serves you well.

[ShinyRhino]

People absolutely, positively do NOT select bikes as their army for the T5. They do it for the speed, the flexibility, and the ambiance. Bikers are the closest Marines get to cavalry outriders. Rhino-based Troops are just too easy to cripple and then pick apart. Maybe if Bolters were Assault weapons, they'd be more versatile. However, they're not, so they're relegated to being a static weapon after the Rhino is Shaken or Immobile.