Eldar Difficult Terrian tests....

[CaptinLoken]

I been playing with 2 eldar players that came into the area and I'm... getting frustrated with the way anti gravity tanks can pivot and over objectives that are in difficult terrain and since the wings in the front are not the base of the model they don't have to do a DT test but the small base in the back does. Is this a common eldar trick and is widely excepted? Because after he places his craft he says the front fins are his hull and has a scoring unit within 3 " of the objective. (it has dire guys in it so that part is fine) I just would like to understand where the line is drawn on vehicles moving in terrain and not. I understand with a grave tank no landing in the terrain he doesn't ahve to role but if and when he turns he has half his ship in the area terrain.

 

I'll cool down if it is a wide trick of there army ... just need to get out side opinion before I give him a rule book thumping ... and over react.

[Frosty the Pyro]

any vehicle can pivot all it wants (assuming its not imobilized/stuned) without needing to take a test. a skimmer will only need to take a test if it starts or ends its move in dangerous terain (note that vehicles consider all difficult terain as dangerous)

[ShinyRhino]

100,000% illegal.

A vehicle is defined by the area of its hull. If any portion of that hull is in terrain, the vehicle takes appropriate tests.

[Iron Father Rik]

any vehicle can pivot all it wants (assuming its not imobilized/stuned) without needing to take a test. a skimmer will only need to take a test if it starts or ends its move in dangerous terain (note that vehicles consider all difficult terain as dangerous)

 

It should be pointed out that the vehicle should pivot from the centre of the model - which on an Eldar tank is somewhere just infront of the driver's cockpit canopy. A vehicle does not necessarily pivot around the point where the stand meets the model - this is merely the location of the centre of gravity (or roughly the location of it) of the tank so that the tank will actually sit level on the stand. In gaming terms you completely ignore the stand of a skimmer tank model and only make measurements and pivotting based on the actual model.

 

 

100,000% illegal.

A vehicle is defined by the area of its hull. If any portion of that hull is in terrain, the vehicle takes appropriate tests.

 

This is true, almost. Skimmers don't have to take a difficult terrain test unless they start or end their move in terrain. What you described, CaptinLoken, is illegal, but know that a skimmer can move completely over a piece of terrain without issue. However if they move up to the terrain, then pivot around their centre point and any part of the vehicle is then in terrain, it does need to take a dangerous terrain test.

[Frosty the Pyro]

. However if they move up to the terrain, then pivot around their centre point and any part of the vehicle is then in terrain, it does need to take a dangerous terrain test.

 

not quite, they only need to taek a dangerous terain test as part of a move. If the only action the vehicle made that turn is pivoting, it does not constitute a move and will not require a test. So if they moved their and pivoted they would need to test (as there was a move involved). If they are aready there and only pivot they do not.

[Iron Father Rik]

. However if they move up to the terrain, then pivot around their centre point and any part of the vehicle is then in terrain, it does need to take a dangerous terrain test.

 

not quite, they only need to taek a dangerous terain test as part of a move. If the only action the vehicle made that turn is pivoting, it does not constitute a move and will not require a test. So if they moved their and pivoted they would need to test (as there was a move involved). If they are aready there and only pivot they do not.

 

Fair enough, hadn't thought of that situation to be fair.

[CaptinLoken]

Thanks for the good portion of feed back guys ...I thought of it so... Because He been double standard his hull placement. For example He can pivot onto difficult trerrian and not DT Test but on the flip side make it so that I can't come within 1" of his model Effectively forcing my Scouts to run around his tank. I also got pissed at the point that his tanks pivot to block the path of my models to assault some of his. Think of two U interlocked into each other facing each other waveserpants to make it so I would have to walk around with 2 termies.

 

I may be soft about how I approach this gamer but I'm feel he using the anti gave base way to far. Definaly understand how skimmers work with scouts I have Landspeeder storms where I am always pivoting them and moving them in ways to attack the enemy. But I do take DT test when i should be. Its difficult not to get a speeder in DT if the base isn't in it as well For eldar verticals it is an iffy situation.

 

I'll update On my chat with him goes ... We may have another round with Pictures ... but If I get to a certain point I'll just stop playin him. I would rather avoid that because when store touries roll around it bound to be then and bad ...

[Iron Father Rik]

It is allowed, and a common tactic, to use vehicles to block enemy troops and shield your own. Rhinos can be used effectively for this. He is allowed to fly his tanks over and then pivot them on the spot to utilise the longer dimension to block line of sight, or a path to assault from your models. That is not against the rules. An annoying tactic if you are on the receiving end, granted, but still game legal.

 

Just as long as he pivots about the centre of the tank, and not some arbitrary point near the back (like where the stand joins the tank).

[CaptinLoken]

Yeah... I talked to him and we tried to work it out a bit fair... bit bloodly but better than it was before.

 

I know this will sound odd but ... Eldar have a power where they force enemy psychic unit roll 3 d6 for psy tests. I rolled 3 ones does this evoke perils of the warp test or does because of the ELdar wording in the codex over ride the test rules and only if they roll over my leadership or 12... forgetting the exact wording but it suggest a change of the normal order due to the changes of peril of the warp with 3 dice is 1/3 as to normal 2/12 ..

 

In addition my Libby was trying to put up a force dome over a bike unit he was riding with does this Inv save kick in for the warp test attack since I passed it? Or would I auto wound due to the kick in same time or before it going off?

[Hellios]

Yeah... I talked to him and we tried to work it out a bit fair... bit bloodly but better than it was before.

 

I know this will sound odd but ... Eldar have a power where they force enemy psychic unit roll 3 d6 for psy tests. I rolled 3 ones does this evoke perils of the warp test or does because of the ELdar wording in the codex over ride the test rules and only if they roll over my leadership or 12... forgetting the exact wording but it suggest a change of the normal order due to the changes of peril of the warp with 3 dice is 1/3 as to normal 2/12 ..

 

In addition my Libby was trying to put up a force dome over a bike unit he was riding with does this Inv save kick in for the warp test attack since I passed it? Or would I auto wound due to the kick in same time or before it going off?

 

A triple 1 wound pass the psychic test as you know... and personally being a triple I automatically consider it to contain a double (consider tervigon spawning... if someone rolled 3 6s would you allow them to keep spawning or would you consider they had rolled a double? This could be a bad example I don't have the tervigons rules on me :)) and so a perils of the warp test would be required. The 12 or above bit reflects rolling a double 6 although on 3 dice it may not be a double 6 at all, although if someone rolled a double 6 they would be getting perils.

 

On the save front... I would say the wound and power occur at the same time and the save can be taken as that would be taken after the wound has occured. This is how I would read it anyway :< I make nor promises that I am correct.

[Iron Father Rik]

I know this will sound odd but ... Eldar have a power where they force enemy psychic unit roll 3 d6 for psy tests.

 

It doesn't sound odd. It's an item of wargear that the Eldar get called "Runes of Warding".

 

A triple 1 wound pass the psychic test as you know... and personally being a triple I automatically consider it to contain a double (consider tervigon spawning... if someone rolled 3 6s would you allow them to keep spawning or would you consider they had rolled a double? This could be a bad example I don't have the tervigons rules on me :)) and so a perils of the warp test would be required. The 12 or above bit reflects rolling a double 6 although on 3 dice it may not be a double 6 at all, although if someone rolled a double 6 they would be getting perils.

 

Yes, it is the case that if you roll a triple, it counts as a double has been rolled. Every other instance that I am aware of in 40k or WFB goes by this. A double has been rolled, no matter how many dice you rolled to get it. That's what makes the Runes of Warding rather annoying, as it increases the chances of your Librarian getting a Perils of the Warp attack.

 

Also, the "12 or above" bit is in order to increase the chances of you rolling a Perils of the Warp. You could easily roll three 4s or higher, especially since the most common roll on 3D6 is about 12 iirc. It's all to exert Eldar's supposed psychic dominance over us. I can't tell you how many times my Librarian didn't get his power and suffered a Perils trying to cast against my mate's Eldar yesterday! Still, I made it up by nullifying most of his powers with my psychic hood! :)

 

 

On the save front... I would say the wound and power occur at the same time and the save can be taken as that would be taken after the wound has occured. This is how I would read it anyway :< I make nor promises that I am correct.

 

It doesn't say it in the rulebook anymore, but I believe it used to be the case that the psychic power's effects were applied before you took the Perils of the Warp attack, after rolling a double 1, to account for the fact that the power still gets cast even if the psyker gets killed while attempting it. I may be confusing that with WFB magic rules though. Also, it doesn't say anything about that in the rulebook now so don't take this as proof that it still applies.

[Grey Mage]

In the case of Fortune going on a double 1, wich could in some cases be a pair of 1s and a 5 for instance, the farseer will get a 3+ roll to simply negate it. Then, hell get a rerolling 4++ to ignore the wound- wich also has the caveat that any successful rolls must be rerolled. Most players will just roll once, technically you pick the die up and then reroll it no matter what- the first roll is meaningless. So talk that last part over with your opponent to avoid confusion.

[Phosis]

I'm a little unclear on the skimmer abuses people do (not calling the instances in this post abuse, mind you)

 

Consider the IG skimmers that stand about 10 feet above their base

 

What if the base is in open terrain, but upon closer inspection from a TOP DOWN view, the vehicle's hull is in difficult terrain? I vote no.

 

This is where the Eldar vehicles come in.. What if you apply the same situation but use a Falcon or Wave Serpent instead? Same thing right? Very very close to abuse, but I let the eldar players (even people I don't know) get away with little things like that. Turns out lately I've just been letting them go by what the base touches, which may not be correct.... but speeds up the games.

 

And at least using that method, everyone's on the same page.

[Hellios]

I'm a little unclear on the skimmer abuses people do (not calling the instances in this post abuse, mind you)

 

Consider the IG skimmers that stand about 10 feet above their base

 

What if the base is in open terrain, but upon closer inspection from a TOP DOWN view, the vehicle's hull is in difficult terrain? I vote no.

 

This is where the Eldar vehicles come in.. What if you apply the same situation but use a Falcon or Wave Serpent instead? Same thing right? Very very close to abuse, but I let the eldar players (even people I don't know) get away with little things like that. Turns out lately I've just been letting them go by what the base touches, which may not be correct.... but speeds up the games.

 

And at least using that method, everyone's on the same page.

 

As someone who plays Aircav guard I must admit that playing on a board with a decent amount of cover is a pain... My group however dosen't count the wings or tail for terrain and models moving within 1 inch of each other. The exceptions being when terrain/models are high enough to touch the wings or tail. (House rules as this might be.)

[BlkTom]

I thought this was FAQed that you go by the base of the vehicle (Storm chickens, vendettas and the like). Does this effect the Dark Eldar as well? Do they say you go off of the bases or the fig? So do you go off of the hull then for Eldar or the hull, because they might not have the modern bases.

[Spacefrisian]

Most (if not all) of those skimmer bases are based in the center of the vehicle, so turning them around on that shouldnt give to much trouble.

[Hellios]

Most (if not all) of those skimmer bases are based in the center of the vehicle, so turning them around on that shouldnt give to much trouble.

 

The valk is significantly longer than its base... especially when you take the wings into account... on a small board I have to tuck my valkyries under each other to fit them all on is I'm using my aircav.

[CaptinLoken]

The Eldar do have modern bases... they are slowly having models revamped and improved over time... like the fire prisms... they just made it annoying the over all shape and design because half the front of the model is empty space.. ... I haven't had a chance to play the eldar army like this again soo... i'm just waiting.

[Acebaur]

The flying bases are not always centered on the vehicle, Eldar in particular. If it were centered it wouldn't balance as it would be too far forward. Besides, the flying base is essentially ignored for game purposes per page 71 of the BRB

[BlkTom]

Pg 3 of the rulebook under Measuring Distances says use the base for measuring unless it doesn't have a base, then you use the hull. Storm chicken, Vendettas and the like that come with bases, you use the base, not the model for measuring.

[Grey Mage]

Pg 3 of the rulebook under Measuring Distances says use the base for measuring unless it doesn't have a base, then you use the hull. Storm chicken, Vendettas and the like that come with bases, you use the base, not the model for measuring.

 

Yes, and skimmers are explicitly measured to and from the hull, ignoring the bases.

[SeattleDV8]

Try again Blktom ,BRB pg. 71 Measuring distances

The skimmers base is ignored except for Assaults, and from the IG FAQ

'...For the purposes of contesting objectives and

embarking/disembarking from a Valkyrie or

Vendetta, measure to and from the model’s base."