captaincandle Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 Hey Everyone, New to the posting forum but been reading for a while. I've had some issues since 5th ed was released fighting the Tyranids in games where lists are built beforehand and opponents are unknown (like a tourney, only friendly). The issue I have is that I find I really need to re-write my list specifically to fight them, and that sucks cause I tend not to do as well against the other opponents. The list usually has (at 1750) a couple of zoanthropes, swarmlord with guard, outflanking genestealers (have the most issues with these), tervigon, couple of big units of termigaunts, drop-podded doom of malanti. I do have a lot of issues building marine lists since I've been playing but reading the articles here has drastically increased my understanding of how the army works, and hopefully experience will fill the gaps, but i'm pretty over getting pummeled by nids in a balanced-army setting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luis_CC Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 Tyranids are the most difficult army I have ever met on the board. They have problems dealing with vehicules, so they are needed (for example, LRR, LR or vindis), and they often rely on psychic power, so you will need a libby. Also, you will need template weapons, as HF on Land Speeders or LRR inferno cannon. Another thing that you have to take into account is how to face monstrous creatures, it can be done through firepower (sternguard, LS typhoon, heavy weapons...) or assault power (assault termies or command squad properly fitted) or even ignoring them. But these tips are not so useful if you make a bad deployment (you should keep in mind that the first or second turn must belong to you, while the latter are usually controlled by tyranids) or if you don´t choose your targets properly (killing the swarmlord or zoantropes can be essential, while the tervigon is not so important). P. S. Don´t panic when Doom of Malantai appears. We shall know no fear! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan249 Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 I tend to do all right against tyranids with my Dreadraiders list, and it consists of nothing but lascannons and missile launchers with sprinkled heavy flamers and a Terminator care package. 1750 pts "Dreadraiders Mk.10" HQ MotF: 100 pts Troops Scout Squad: 5 scouts - 75 pts Scout Squad: 5 scouts, CCs - 90 pts Elites Dreadnought: TLLC, HF - 145 pts Dreadnought: TLLC, HF - 145 pts Assault Terminator Squad: 4 TH/SS, 1 DLC - 200 pts Land Raider: Mmelta - 260 pts Heavy Support Dreadnought: TLLC, HF - 145 pts Dreadnought: TLLC, HF - 145 pts Land Raider: 250 pts Fast Attack Land Speeder: TML, Mmelta - 100 pts Land Speeder: TML - 90 pts I think the main reason why this list can cope with the Tyranids as well as the other armies I design it to fight (mass armor, for one) is the fact that this list provides very little in the way of bodies for the tyranid anti-infantry weapons and units to target. So when the weaker MCs and gaunts and gargoyles and anything with no ability to take on vehicles hit the table, they have nothing to do and become dead weight, leaving their higher power single units to deal with my army, which this list is designed to handle. This is simply how I choose to fight my battles, you may have to jump through more hoops to put the advantage on your side. You may want to try making your entire army able to apply firepower on the move, which will help you keep your distance and shoot shoot shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captaincandle Posted March 4, 2011 Author Share Posted March 4, 2011 P. S. Don´t panic when Doom of Malantai appears. We shall know no fear! I thought that rule had nothing to do with the doom? It does 3-4 kills a turn with the damned thing because you take LD checks with 3D6... But that might be my terrible rolling... The tervigon is irritating cause it's so hard to shift and can very easily tar-pit my units at about turn 3, which is irritating cause he tries for my scoring (as you do) which means I struggle late game, then the genstealers usually show up... I don't usually have an issue with the zoanthropes as a couple of melta shots each usually kill them off, but they can ruin my day if I bring a tank or two. I realised dreads would be very handy here but dreads tend not to work in my lists as they either get left behind or confused as to where they fit in. Oh! my usual list is: Pedro Kantor Tac squad+Powerfist+meltagun+lascanon Tac squad+Powerfist+plasma gun+plasma cannon Scout squad+combi-melta+CCW+LSS withy Multi-melta(obviously bought seperately) Scout squad same as above Sternguard+5 men+5combi-meltas+Powerfist+drop pod Vindicator Vindicator Dev squad+4missile launchers+2 men Pretty sure thats right but don't have the list in-front of me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
templargdt Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 Hey Everyone, New to the posting forum but been reading for a while. I've had some issues since 5th ed was released fighting the Tyranids in games where lists are built beforehand and opponents are unknown (like a tourney, only friendly). The issue I have is that I find I really need to re-write my list specifically to fight them, and that sucks cause I tend not to do as well against the other opponents. The list usually has (at 1750) a couple of zoanthropes, swarmlord with guard, outflanking genestealers (have the most issues with these), tervigon, couple of big units of termigaunts, drop-podded doom of malanti. I do have a lot of issues building marine lists since I've been playing but reading the articles here has drastically increased my understanding of how the army works, and hopefully experience will fill the gaps, but i'm pretty over getting pummeled by nids in a balanced-army setting! Here's a couple thoughts on specific stuff: - Stealers. Keep your guys more than 18 inches away from the board edge until the stealers come in. Keep in mind that terrain can reduce that number. Normal genestealers only have an armor save of 5, so any flamer (or bolters in the open) will demolish those guys. I highly recommend some landspeeders with a heavy flamer and some other weapon (I prefer MM/HF.) You will greatly reduce your Tyranid problem with a highly mobile heavy flamer. - Zoanthropes/Doom of Malanti: Screen your heavy armor with Rhinos and terrain to give cover saves before they come down. A librarian hood is especially helpful here (but will also help with psychic powers from stuff like FNP from the Tervigon.) A Librarian running Null Zone will also help you overcome the Invul save protecting the Doom and Zoanthropes so you can insta-kill them with a STR-8 shot. If you aren't using a librarian as your HQ, I don't think there is much more you can do besides take your lumps when the drop, hope to roll cover and then kill them next turn. Keep in mind for the Doom that he doesn't hit units in Vehicles. -Swarmlord and guard: Ignore this and kite around it. Seriously, he's dropped a ton of points on this, deny him the ability to use it effectively. I would focus on elminating stuff like his Tervigons first, especially in objectives missions. -Tervigon: Hood helps block FNP power. Kill this with high strength weapons in Objective missions immediately. Even in KP missions I would give it high target priority, just from the FNP boost he can give. - Termingauts: Killing the Tervigon will help you kill these guys if they are in proximity. Also, mobile flamers. If your troops aren't doing anything else, shoot these guys with bolters. Glancing over your list, I think you could help yourself out by swaping at least one of the LSS multimeltas with a heavy flamer. I get that you're using them for 1st turn armor kills, but even one very mobile heavy flamer would be very helpful to you I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captaincandle Posted March 4, 2011 Author Share Posted March 4, 2011 I definitely like the HF ideas... and i've been re-arranging my list a lot. That just happens to be the most recent i've used and it was unfortunately, before I had read any of the tactica here. I'm also thinking some HF for the sternguard but I don't like reducing the amount of specials shots i get as they are just so damn useful! Libby is definitely a priority... i'm finding I need one more and more these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luis_CC Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 P. S. Don´t panic when Doom of Malantai appears. We shall know no fear! I thought that rule had nothing to do with the doom? It does 3-4 kills a turn with the damned thing because you take LD checks with 3D6... But that might be my terrible rolling... The tervigon is irritating cause it's so hard to shift and can very easily tar-pit my units at about turn 3, which is irritating cause he tries for my scoring (as you do) which means I struggle late game, then the genstealers usually show up... I don't usually have an issue with the zoanthropes as a couple of melta shots each usually kill them off, but they can ruin my day if I bring a tank or two. I realised dreads would be very handy here but dreads tend not to work in my lists as they either get left behind or confused as to where they fit in. Oh! my usual list is: Pedro Kantor Tac squad+Powerfist+meltagun+lascanon Tac squad+Powerfist+plasma gun+plasma cannon Scout squad+combi-melta+CCW+LSS withy Multi-melta(obviously bought seperately) Scout squad same as above Sternguard+5 men+5combi-meltas+Powerfist+drop pod Vindicator Vindicator Dev squad+4missile launchers+2 men Pretty sure thats right but don't have the list in-front of me... My previos P.S. pretends to be a joke. In general, I think that your list is unbalanced, because it includes too many troops. I mean, troops are neccesary but they tend to be all-rounders. You need more firepower, more punch. In fact, your Heavy Support is very powerful, but you spend too many points in the combo scout+LSS which is a bit weak and with and ultra specialized role (I would drop one of them and give a power fist to the remaining sargent), with the difference you can include a pair of LS with MM and HF. I would drop Pedro Kantor and devs and include a libby and a LRR (the best against horde) or, even, add some miniatures to your sternguard. You must hit where the other player´s list is weaker, he relies on zoans to destroy your tanks. Well, you may include a libby to reduce zoans effect on the board and you may make a quirurgical attack to zoans (sternguard or LSS). You can also think about including some sniper scouts instead a tactical squad, they can be really nasty to monstruos creatures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captaincandle Posted March 4, 2011 Author Share Posted March 4, 2011 I was thinking of dropping both scouts actually... and maybe add a dread or two? What do you mean add more members to the sternguard? they have ten men... did you mean another squad? I run Pedro cause A) I like him and B ) I actually play crimson fists so I enjoy the theme atmosphere he brings to the army. I would like to run a LRR and libby but there are three guard players in my group and they both tend not to do so well... the LRR tends to get scout-move vendetta with veterans melta spamed and dies horribly before doing anything, and the libby only really sees use against the nids, but as I said, more people are starting to use psychic powers so I've been considering him for a while. Remember the list is supposed to be a bit all-comer (although I'm still struggling with the concept) so the dev's play an important AT role and can easily tackle MC's if they need to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luis_CC Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 I was thinking of dropping both scouts actually... and maybe add a dread or two? What do you mean add more members to the sternguard? they have ten men... did you mean another squad? I run Pedro cause A) I like him and B ) I actually play crimson fists so I enjoy the theme atmosphere he brings to the army. I would like to run a LRR and libby but there are three guard players in my group and they both tend not to do so well... the LRR tends to get scout-move vendetta with veterans melta spamed and dies horribly before doing anything, and the libby only really sees use against the nids, but as I said, more people are starting to use psychic powers so I've been considering him for a while. Remember the list is supposed to be a bit all-comer (although I'm still struggling with the concept) so the dev's play an important AT role and can easily tackle MC's if they need to. Sorry, I did not notice that they were ten. Then, why don´t you add more combi-weapons? 5combi-plasma will make around 4 or 5 wounds on any monstruous creatures. I also include Kantor, but in 2000p level. Againsts Tyranids the "stubborn" USR is quite useful. The libby requires practice, I have been running him for a lot of games and I keep commiting mistakes. I often use null zone and the power which confers invulnerable save or null zone and the avenger. Now I have finished a libby with TDA, SS which is going to use null zone and the power with S10 FP1. I would not drop any unit because of enemy units, it is a bad strategy and I think you know it (just read what you told me about Kantor). In fact, against IG, one of my preferred enemies, vehicule spam can be crucial (as they have too many targets). If you make numbers, you may doubt about devs efficiency. At least, it is what happened to me ;). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bystrom Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 There are three reasons I would run a librarian. 1) I need an HQ. This isn't really relevant for you list as you already have one. 2) For psyker defense. This is only necessary against tyranids. 3) Bringing psychic powers. This is where you'll need to look through the powers and see if any are useful enough against other opponents; if its worth taking one. A way of minimising the damage DoM does is by giving your tactical squads rhinos. It would also give them some mobility as well as protect against genestealers and termagants. Otherwise, I agree, you seem to have a lot of troops, which you probably don't need, at least one of scout squads seem superfluous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
templargdt Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 I disagree with bystrom about Psychic defense only for nids. I find in games I play against Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Eldar, Chaos Space Marines and Nids the Hood is usually valuable. I haven't played with LSS Storm scouts, but I keep wanting to. I don't think those guys are a waste, but I have no experience to go off of to be sure. If you keep Kantor as your HQ, I agree with the other guys you could drop a troop choice to be more effective. That said, if you are having good success with your LSS/Scout teams, I would actually drop a Tac squad instead and use those points else where for more effective units (like more Sternguard.) Also, I would argue against a HF for the Sternguard. You're paying points for the awesome bolters. A combiflamer is cheap for those guys and do the job you want the HF to do I think. Here is a re-designed list for you to consider, given what you have in your current list. HQ- Kantor Troops- 5 Scouts (Meltabombs, Combimelta) 5 Scouts (Meltabombs, Combimelta) Elites- 10 Sternguard (10 Combiweapons, Powerfist, Drop Pod) 10 Sternguard (10 Combiweapons, Powerfist, Rhino) Fast Attack Land Speeder Storm (Heavy Flamer) Land Speeder Storm (Multimelta) Heavy Support Vindicator Vindicator 5 Devastators (Rhino) Which comes to (no codex in front of me, so check the math) 1615, leaving you 135 to add stuff as you please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bystrom Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 I'm sorry, I wrote incorrectly, what I meant to say was that the OP has said that psyker defense is only necessary against tyranids, so that the only reason to include a librarian for psyker defense in the OP's case would be against tyranids. I agree that a librarian is very useful, for example against eldar. Shutting down a farseer helps a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 As others have said Nids struggle against mech, and so it would be best to mech your forces up. Try to find a way to get Rhinos onto your Tactical squads. You're using Pedro with only one small Sternguard, either find a way to chuck at least another one in, or just use the Libby instead. Psychic defense is invaluable and Avenger will help better than Dorn's Arrow against the Nids. Also, about the Devs, have you considered replacing them with a squadron of 2 Typhoons. About the same price, same amount of missile shots, but includes a couple of heavy bolters, is mech and much more mobile. Static targets are normally dead targets, especially against Nids when you have to contend with outflanking Genestealers. Run a couple of Typhoons instead, and they'll be able to line up shots to side armour, different fire lanes, shots that your Devs normally couldn't line up. And they don't suffer in DoW missions, which can really spoil a Devs' day. All Tactical advise about Nids was neatly summed up earlier, the fight here is getting a decent army list. So IMO, a Libby, a couple of Rhinos and a couple of Typhoons will greatly improve the list, while letting you combat anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagicMan Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 If i remember right, the Carnifex is the only unit with frag grenades in the list. Lashwhips will put you on I1, and there might be a Pscychic power that does the same (Haven't played with them in a while, didn't much like the new dex). But anyway, sit in cover and laugh off the super scary alien horrors who can't cope with hedges and small piles of rubble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 If i remember right, the Carnifex is the only unit with frag grenades in the list. Lashwhips will put you on I1, and there might be a Pscychic power that does the same (Haven't played with them in a while, didn't much like the new dex). But anyway, sit in cover and laugh off the super scary alien horrors who can't cope with hedges and small piles of rubble. You are very correct here. And the best thing is that while Carnifexes can get a cheap upgrade for frag grenades, chances are they'll want adrenal glands to even match your initiative, and so will still cost about 200pts. Most people take Trygons now anyway, which don't have any cover ignoring effects, so they will be striking last. Lashwhips as well are an expensive upgrade often on a 40-50pts multi-wound model with only a 4+ save and no immunity to ID, so swing those power fists and shoot them with krak missiles, demo cannons etc. Fortunately there isn't a power that does the same thing. In all honesty the one to look out for is Paroxysm. Warp Lance and Hypnotic Gaze are cool and you should look out for them, but you don't want your entire unit at WS and BS 1 for the turn, so keep an eye on those Tyrants! But yeah, if you get caught in open try to get into cover quick, as even Genestealers will strike after you, and with only a 5+ save quite a few should die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 Lots of good advice here already... But if your group is happy with FW rules I would suggest a Deathstorm drop pod... great fun and they will thin out his gaunts for you ^^ leaving a path clear to blast his others things until his unit arrive from reserve. They are not totally useless against mech and MEQ armies but they are great against armies with lots of gribble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xeonic Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 I have it on good authority that you should Shoot the Big Ones. The Departmento Munitorium wouldn't lie to us now would they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meatman Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 Missile launchers and lots of bodies are one of the best ways to do it. Squads of typhoons are great for all comers, and will destroy the large beasts with the krak missiles. They will also mince meat hordes with heavy bolters and frag missiles. Flamers and combi-flamers on the tacts in rhinos work well on the outflanking genestealers. Counter assault unit with a thunderhammer wont go amiss, reduce the big baddies to I1 in the next round will help your guys survive longer, and is one of the best reasons to take one over a fist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Pugnax Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 I've found that LSS bolt/shotgun squads can be fairly useful, more so than BP/CCW scouts in situations like this. Fast, and fairly cheap, and still useful against IG lists. Kit the LSS works with either a MM or an HF, and the scouts with boltguns or shotguns plus your choice of combi on the sarge. Then proceed to do drive-byes. The LSS can target independently, so the MM might be worth it. You can pop off a melta-blast against the MC of your choice and pepper something else with S4 shots. Zoom off, rinse, and repeat. If you reserve it, could be a quick, late game counter to slow down the stealers. The combi on the sarge can help against either target group depending on your wants, but I would recommend using it early because storms are fragile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hpt.steiner Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 For swatting Nids I like to use a back line of Missile launcher Devastators to crush Monstrous Creatures from range while my middle line of Sternguard with their special ammo and combie plasma victimize anything that runs up close, drops in, or crawls out of the ground. Finally my front line are tactical squads combat squaded and spread out to make blockers against outflanking Gene Stealers or the like. Hitting with 11-12 missiles can ruin a hive Tyrant and guards in a single turn and loosing a 5 man Tac squad to stop Genes in front of your Sterns? Sure thing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Navaer Solaq Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 I think you need more bodies to cover the eventual charge by stealers. remember you can combat squad your guys and have one unit as bait or screening your dev squad. if you cut back a bit on the scout's equipment it could free up more points for a bare bone libby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 if you want to beat tyranids in an all rounder list, invest in a thunderfire cannon or two.. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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