Brother Kovash Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 Eventually, I would like to field an entire Battle Company for Apocalypse games. I'm just curious, how does a Veterans Squad fit into a standard Battle Company? You have 6 Tactical squads, 2 Assault squads and 2 Devastator squads. That doesn't seem to leave any room for the Veterans squad I plan to build. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223923-where-does-the-veterans-squad-fit-in-a-battle-company/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Fisting Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 The veterans are the sergeants that sometimes take to the field in their own elite squads. Usually they're just leading their greener brothers, though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223923-where-does-the-veterans-squad-fit-in-a-battle-company/#findComment-2677666 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Rik Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 In a codex chapter, they don't. They fit in the 1st company, which is, coincidentally, named the "veteran company". As for the Dark Angels, well, I'm not sure about them. It was my understanding that they have a loose codex formation, with the exception of their first and second companies being slightly different. But with that I thought that it was the case that all Dark Angel veterans fought in terminator armour all the time, as per the "Deathwing" 1st company, whereas in normal codex chapters veterans fight in a mix of terminator and power armour as the mission demands. Â There would be some veterans in each company forming the captain's command squad, though this would only be around about five marines, give or take. EDIT - Also, what Crimson Fisting said too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223923-where-does-the-veterans-squad-fit-in-a-battle-company/#findComment-2677667 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Fisting Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 Dark Angels company vets are vets that haven't quite made it to Deathwing yet, but are the best in their company, hence why most of the time they're playing sergeant. There isn't really a designated slot within the company for a vet squad. The company vet squad in the codex is just meant to represent those occasions when the vets happen to join together to kick ass. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223923-where-does-the-veterans-squad-fit-in-a-battle-company/#findComment-2677670 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Rik Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 Dark Angels company vets are vets that haven't quite made it to Deathwing yet, but are the best in their company, hence why most of the time they're playing sergeant. There isn't really a designated slot within the company for a vet squad. The company vet squad in the codex is just meant to represent those occasions when the vets happen to join together to kick ass. Â Ah right cool, my bad then. It's pretty much the same way that veterans work in codex chapter companies too, except rather than being stuck only leading their squads until they get elevanted to first company, the Dark Angels let them get together every now and then to blow off some steam and have a kick-about down the park. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223923-where-does-the-veterans-squad-fit-in-a-battle-company/#findComment-2677675 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodunius Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 They take the place of a Tactical squad(s) - it says it on page 14 of the Codex, the page with "CHAPTER ORGANISATION" in big letters at the top. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223923-where-does-the-veterans-squad-fit-in-a-battle-company/#findComment-2677743 Share on other sites More sharing options...
EPK Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 As far as where they fit on the hierarchy of command, the codex would suggest the following ranking system for DA:  Battle Brother > Company Vet > Sergeant  They would be those of much experience that have not yet been placed in charge of a squad. This is suggested on page 24 where the dex says "a few become company veterans, and still fewer veteran sergeants".  As noted above, they do take the place of a tact squad for organization. If I had to venture a guess, there might only be one of these per company as they would after all be somewhat more rare. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223923-where-does-the-veterans-squad-fit-in-a-battle-company/#findComment-2677744 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Kovash Posted March 4, 2011 Author Share Posted March 4, 2011 Alright, I see the line mentioning Veterans taking the place of Tactical squads, thanks guys. I guess I'll be working towards having 5 Tactical squads when I actually get around to that point. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223923-where-does-the-veterans-squad-fit-in-a-battle-company/#findComment-2677785 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Shadow Guard Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 Crimson fisting and Vodunius have it right. The complement of a company is 100 battlebrothers in 10 squads plus the captain and his command squad. The company veterans simply refers to a reassignement of some of the members of the 10 squads to form an elite hardcore squad which is temporary and dependant on battlefield conditions. Â In someways one could argue that when a company veteran squad is formed they should be created by removing individuals from toher squads, much in the way the old Blood Angels Codex Death Company worked.... but for simplicity and in keeping with the statement on page 14 of the codex, consider that ten of the best marines are removed from individual squads to make up a comany veteran squad and the remainder re-distributed to bring the ten original squads to nine full strength squads. Just playing musical chairs of sorts!! :teehee: Â The DA Company vets are very different to the Codex Veterans (Vanguard & Sternguard) Those are actually members of the first compnay, who, clad in power armour use their status as veterans to focus their specific characteristics - either close combat or firepower. As it stands the DA Chapter organization wouldn't allow sternguard and vanguard veteran squads as all veterans of the 1st company are suited only in terminator armour. very different. Â SG Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223923-where-does-the-veterans-squad-fit-in-a-battle-company/#findComment-2677837 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 Yeah, but just ignore Crimson Fisting's first post, which is wrong. His second post is closer to correct. Companies have Veterans other than the Sergeants, but for game purposes they are not represented in the squads stat-wise. Company Veterans squads are not made up of all of the Sergeants who have ditched their units, leaving them leaderless. Those leaders are still needed in the other 9 Company squads, so it is likely that only one member of a Company Veterans unit normally serves as a Sergeant. The rest of the Company Veterans squad members are all exceptional individuals, but that have not been tapped to be a sergeant(or bumped up to the Deathwing) for any number of reasons. Â For a full Company, the best thing to do would be to replace one of the 6 Tactical Squads with a Company Veterans squad(because they serve similar roles), thereby leaving the Battle Company with its full compliment of Assault the Devastator support units. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223923-where-does-the-veterans-squad-fit-in-a-battle-company/#findComment-2677848 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Neo Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 Yeah, but just ignore Crimson Fisting's first post, which is wrong. His second post is closer to correct. Companies have Veterans other than the Sergeants, but for game purposes they are not represented in the squads stat-wise. Company Veterans squads are not made up of all of the Sergeants who have ditched their units, leaving them leaderless. Those leaders are still needed in the other 9 Company squads, so it is likely that only one member of a Company Veterans unit normally serves as a Sergeant. The rest of the Company Veterans squad members are all exceptional individuals, but that have not been tapped to be a sergeant(or bumped up to the Deathwing) for any number of reasons. For a full Company, the best thing to do would be to replace one of the 6 Tactical Squads with a Company Veterans squad(because they serve similar roles), thereby leaving the Battle Company with its full compliment of Assault the Devastator support units. agreed.  this is the point i was trying o get across in the project: unforgiven thread Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223923-where-does-the-veterans-squad-fit-in-a-battle-company/#findComment-2677920 Share on other sites More sharing options...
FerociousBeast Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 The complement of a company is 100 battlebrothers in 10 squads plus the captain and his command squad. The company veterans simply refers to a reassignement of some of the members of the 10 squads to form an elite hardcore squad which is temporary and dependant on battlefield conditions. I disagree with this interpretation. There's nothing in the codex to indicate that the Company Veteran squads are only temporary and that the members filter back down to their normal squads when the battle is over. In fact, since it says that previous members of the squad bequeath their wargear to the veterans who replace them, that offers a strong argument that the membership of the squads is persistent. Â To reinforce shabbadoo's point, Crimson Fisting is incorrect about the veterans being sergeants from other squads. Â So where do they fit in a company? Well the codex says that they can be (but not necessarily always are) present in the 3rd through 7th Companies (the companies with Tactical Squads), and fight as Tactical Squads. That suggests to me that one of the Tac Squads in a company--likely the 1st--is made up either wholly or in part with veterans. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223923-where-does-the-veterans-squad-fit-in-a-battle-company/#findComment-2678110 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piousservant Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 Yeah, I've always assumed that they replaced one (or more I guess...) of the Tactical Squads in the Company. That's how I looked at it for my (currently) demi-company. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223923-where-does-the-veterans-squad-fit-in-a-battle-company/#findComment-2678138 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirage20059 Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 Greetings. Â I am recently new to DA and even 40k. And veterans are my favorite unit in the DA codex. In my army Currently only sarges, vets and HQs wear robes and hoods. Partially ignoring the codex entry I place my Vets in the 1st company. They are still 1st company Deathwing just in normal power armor. I separate them by them still wearing the Crux on the left pad and converted or other Deathwing icons. Also to show their status above sarges they are hooded and robed as opposed to sarges just being robed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223923-where-does-the-veterans-squad-fit-in-a-battle-company/#findComment-2678259 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Fisting Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 I'm actually not incorrect. When a Marine becomes a sergeant he isn't locked into that position for all eternity. He could leave the squad for another assignment, giving a trusted squadmate a shot at a leadership billet, before returning to retake his postion. Thanks for tactfully telling me to :cuss off though. Appreciate it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223923-where-does-the-veterans-squad-fit-in-a-battle-company/#findComment-2678354 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steel Company Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 I got around this, by running my 'Green Wing' company as a C:SM company, and taking 1-2 squads of Stern-guard, in place of a squad or two of tacticals. I would imagine that they would take up at least one of the slots for tacs or an assault squad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223923-where-does-the-veterans-squad-fit-in-a-battle-company/#findComment-2678379 Share on other sites More sharing options...
FerociousBeast Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 @Crimson Fisting: No, despite that "what if" scenario, you're still wrong: Company Veterans are not sergeants from other squads, though they may sometimes be, who knows. Â But there's no reason to take it personally. Being wrong occasionally is a forgivable offense. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223923-where-does-the-veterans-squad-fit-in-a-battle-company/#findComment-2678443 Share on other sites More sharing options...
con-fusion Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 This has been an interesting question for me since Jervis went to town and created an interesting unit out of the blue. I normally refer back to the following two quotes:  Codex: Dark Angels 4E, Forces section, Dark Angels Space Marines entry, last few sentences of the penultimate paragraph - Each squad type has a unique battlefield role and the three are designed to operate together to provide mutual support. They are often split into sub-units called Combat squads, affording the Company Masters even greater flexibility on the battlefield. In addition, each of the companies contains at least one Command squad, and many contain one or more squads of Company Veterans.  Codex: Dark Angels, under Company Veterans in the Dark Angels Space Marines entry - Company Veteran Squads represent the finest warriors the company is able to field, gathered together in a single squad and deployed wherever the fighting is thickest. Each veteran has access to a range of equipment, inherited from former squad members or gifted to him in recognition of his great deeds.  As discussed above, an Unforgiven Battle Company is made up of ten Squads and one or more Command Squads. Although not pertinent for this discussion, I saw above that many were saying that a Battle Company is made up of 100 marines and one Command Squad. This is clearly incorrect as in C:DA4 each HQ could take a Command Squad and because the first quote specifically provides for the possibility of having more than one Command Squad in a Battle Company.  Per the C:DA4 Page 14 org chart, we are led to believe that the ten Squads in a Battle Company are set up along Codex Astartes lines. Each Battle Company, therefore, has 6 Tac Squads, 2 Dev Squads, and 2 Assault Squads. What makes the Unforgiven unusual is that some of the Tactical Squads in a Battle Company may be replaced by Company Veteran Squads. Again, the plural is made appropriate by the first quots, which clearly states, "[M]any [Companies] contain one or more squads of Company Veterans."  The second quote provides context by stating that Company Veterans are "[...] the finest warriors the company is able to field, gathered together in a single squad [...]." There are three things that I immediately note about this quote. First, Company Veterans are a collection of great warriors, and not a collection of Sergeants. Second, Company Veterans are gathered together, which means that they must ordinarily be dispersed among a Battle Company's squads only to be pulled together to meet specific emergency needs. Third, the Company Veterans in a single Battle Company are gathered into a single squad, which is clearly contradictory to the terms of the first quote.  Now, I'll just quote myself:  Company Veterans are normally spread out through the basic Squads in their Company. Some serve as Tac Marines, others as Dev or Assault marines. Then, when the fighting gets particularly harsh in one location, the Company Master "gathers" his Company Veterans from each of his Squads, and, depending on how many he has at any given time, forms them into one or more Company Veteran Squads. Because of the manner in which they are ordinarily deployed and "gathered" together in special circumstances, Company Vets are not specialists like Vanguard and Sternguard. Instead, they are essentially Tac, Dev, and Assault Squad members with an unusual amount of experience. We have engaged in conjecture about why the Unforgiven would have a plethora of such individuals outside of the 1st Company, and I think the obvious and simple explanation still holds. There just aren't as many openings in an Unforgiven 1st Company as there are in other space marine Chapters' 1st Companies because our DW boys wear TDA.  The only real issue, fluff-wise, with Company Veterans is whether the first or the second quote is right. Are Company Veterans pulled together into one squad, or can Battle Companies have a large enough group of veterans that they can be split into multiple squads? I think both quotes can be effectuated. In general, Battle Companies only have enough veterans to form one squad of Company veterans, but, sometimes a Company Veteran buildup can occur. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223923-where-does-the-veterans-squad-fit-in-a-battle-company/#findComment-2678463 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Kovash Posted March 4, 2011 Author Share Posted March 4, 2011 Wow, I didn't expect to spark such a discussion. Everyone has had some really good responses. Â Fluff-wise, I'm going to make my 1st squad the Veterans squad, and they'll be permanent. I'm thinking about equipping them all with power weapons, and letting them run around the battlefield in a Land Raider. Their transport should fall in line with their elevated status in the company. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223923-where-does-the-veterans-squad-fit-in-a-battle-company/#findComment-2678504 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Fisting Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 @Crimson Fisting: No, despite that "what if" scenario, you're still wrong: Company Veterans are not sergeants from other squads, though they may sometimes be, who knows. But there's no reason to take it personally. Being wrong occasionally is a forgivable offense. In the same sentence you tell me I'm wrong, then say they may be. They're called Veteran-Sergeants because they are both veterans and sergeants. A Marine Chapter consists of roughly 1,000 men. That's a very small number, and a force that size couldn't function properly unless members were able to move around positions with ease and flow given emerging situations. Like I said, it's perfectly legit that a Vet-Sergeant of a tact squad could get orders to accompany an elite squad of his fellow vets for a specific mission, leave his second-in-command of the tact squad, then resume command after said mission was complete. Sounds a lot more realistic than saying that it could never happen.  Anyway, none of you know for a fact either, so don't presume to tell someone their opinion is wrong. Especially if you're going to contradict yourself in the same statement. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223923-where-does-the-veterans-squad-fit-in-a-battle-company/#findComment-2678524 Share on other sites More sharing options...
con-fusion Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 In the grim darkness of the future, there are no facts. There is only war. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223923-where-does-the-veterans-squad-fit-in-a-battle-company/#findComment-2678532 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steel Company Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 In the grim darkness of the future, there are no facts. There is only war. Â Â QFT Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223923-where-does-the-veterans-squad-fit-in-a-battle-company/#findComment-2678538 Share on other sites More sharing options...
A_POINTED_STICK Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 Command Squads are made up of Veteran-Sergeants which are the hand picked warriors whom the force commander keeps around him. There are at least a handful of them per company. They are supernumeraries who either advise and guard their commander or take command of squads. Likewise specialists and attachés will be attached to the command section either as an extra squad member or given their own command squad If enough veterans are available.  In addition to that, the Dark Angels Legion outfit at least one squad per company made up by those marines who distinguish themselves in the other 9 squads. In this way they integrate their veterans throughout the Chapter and leave the distinguished 1st and 2nd companies to their own devices. Basically 350+ DA are classified as Veterans. 100 DW, 100 RW, 100 Vet Sarges, and 50 company vets. Not to forget that there are thanks to the Unforgiven at least 700 Deathwing, 700 Ravenwing, etc. Formed into detachments throughout the *cough* Legion.*cough* Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223923-where-does-the-veterans-squad-fit-in-a-battle-company/#findComment-2678591 Share on other sites More sharing options...
pueriexdeus Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 I finally finished an entire Battle Company back in 2004.  The organization goes like this:  HO Section: Master Chaplin Librarian Command Squad 2X Company Vet Sqds  Company Combat Team I: 2X Tactical Sqds 1x Devastator Sqd 1X Assault Sqd  Company Combat Team II: 2X Tactical Sqds 1x Devastator Sqd 1X Assault Sqd  I always field my Combat Teams together and mix up my HQ as needed.  BTW; since when have Ravening become Vets? I'm looking at my Codex and don't see where they have Vet Stats across the board like DW do. They are Fast attack, Right? Now if they were to suddenly become a Fast Attack Vet option that would make them much nastier in CC. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223923-where-does-the-veterans-squad-fit-in-a-battle-company/#findComment-2678653 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 This is clearly incorrect as in C:DA4 each HQ could take a Command Squad and because the first quote specifically provides for the possibility of having more than one Command Squad in a Battle Company. Companies do not have more than one Command Squad. It is just a feature within the army list, not the Companies. You can include HQs from different Companies, each accompanied by their own Company's Command Squad. That is how you properly get two Command Squads in single army list. If you were to field two Command Squads each decked out in the same Company markings, in the same army, it would be improper. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223923-where-does-the-veterans-squad-fit-in-a-battle-company/#findComment-2678707 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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