Where does the Veterans Squad fit in a Battle Company?

[con-fusion]

This is clearly incorrect as in C:DA4 each HQ could take a Command Squad and because the first quote specifically provides for the possibility of having more than one Command Squad in a Battle Company.

Companies do not have more than one Command Squad. It is just a feature within the army list, not the Companies. You can include HQs from different Companies, each accompanied by their own Company's Command Squad. That is how you properly get two Command Squads in single army list. If you were to field two Command Squads each decked out in the same Company markings, in the same army, it would be improper.

 

Codex: Dark Angels 4E, Forces section, Dark Angels Space Marines entry, last few sentences of the penultimate paragraph -

 

In addition, each of the companies contains at least one Command squad, and many contain one or more squads of Company Veterans.

 

That is a direct quote. Perhaps you should read it and note that it specifically says that "[...] each of the companies contains at least one Command squad [...]". This means that each company has a minimum of one Command Squad, but may have more. This is basic English usage. If I decide to field two Command Squads with the same Company markings, it would be entirely proper.

 

Not only are you not the arbiter of right and wrong in regard to GW's products, but, more often than not, when you try to be you utter fail to separate reality from your misguided desires. Your kind of foolishness is why I decided to walk away from Project:Unforgiven.

[shabbadoo]

My choice of words was...a bit off. It is the specialty marines that I am mostly referring to, as I know that Chaplains, which are attached to Companies, can take a Command Squad too. Anyways, here is precisely what I mean: you should not have two Company Standards from the same Company in a single army list, as there is only one Company Standard. There are no extras. Doing that would be improper. That isn't just my personal preference for how I think things should be either, but how things are in the background. It would be okay to take a second Standard Bearer in the second Command Squad if he had a Sacred Standard though, but only if a Chaplain were the second HQ(which is required to field a Sacred Standard). Traditionally, only Brother Bethor(or his equivalent) carries the Sacred Standards though.

[pueriexdeus]

This is clearly incorrect as in C:DA4 each HQ could take a Command Squad and because the first quote specifically provides for the possibility of having more than one Command Squad in a Battle Company.

Companies do not have more than one Command Squad. It is just a feature within the army list, not the Companies. You can include HQs from different Companies, each accompanied by their own Company's Command Squad. That is how you properly get two Command Squads in single army list. If you were to field two Command Squads each decked out in the same Company markings, in the same army, it would be improper.

 

Codex over rules BRB: C:DA IC's can all have their own Command Squad. You have a problem with that? Play Smurfs.

[NightrawenII]

Command Squads are made up of Veteran-Sergeants which are the hand picked warriors whom the force commander keeps around him.

Yeah, but no.

 

The Command Squads are not a codified part of the Company organisation rather they are approved yet ad hoc units. As such they can vary in size and composition but they rarely comprise more than ten Marines and normally consist of between five and ten warriors. In the Battle and Reserve Companies these Marines are veterans drawn from the ranks of the Company's Tactical, Assault and Devastator Squads who have not yet been promoted to the 1st Company. The number of marines in a Command Squad will vary according to the availability of such veterans and to the tactical situation the Chapter encounters.

~ Insignium Astartes

[shabbadoo]

Codex over rules BRB: C:DA IC's can all have their own Command Squad. You have a problem with that? Play Smurfs.

This has nothing do do with rules, but with what a single Company has.

[Alys Dwr]

Quite a weighty discussion but a good read.

Command Squads are made up of Veteran-Sergeants which are the hand picked warriors whom the force commander keeps around him.

Not neccesarily.

 

An individual marine may have the best fighting ability but be relatively poor at giving instructions or making decisions. As such he never makes it to the rank of Sargeant, being a better asset as a weapon than a leader. This marine could well find himself moved to a command squad where his talents can be best used to better serve the higher command of the chapter. From there, who knows? Deathwing maybe, if he survives long enough and is found to be worthy.

 

As for the little plastic men i push around on the table, my veterans and command squads are drawn from a pool of models with various special weapons. For the forthcoming game, if i think that flamer is best in a tactical squad that's where he goes. If i want a vet squad he might be seconded there. If i need a sarge with power weapon in a tac squad, that's where he goes etc. It does help that i never got round to painting the squad markings :)

 

Al

[pueriexdeus]

Codex over rules BRB: C:DA IC's can all have their own Command Squad. You have a problem with that? Play Smurfs.

This has nothing do do with rules, but with what a single Company has.

OK, Yes... If a Company has a Master, Chaplain and a Librarian, then they can have three Command Squads... Whats the problem? really, whats the problem??? Our Codex says so. So whats the problem???

 

Really it has nothing to do with rules. If you are a high ranking member of the Company you will have an Entourage of some sort. So, whats the problem???

 

You want to be myopically stuck into a 100 man Company? Then leave, there is no place for you here. If you are so stuck on what C:SM says, then there is no place for you here. Paint your Smurfs Green and have fun, I'll support your endeavors and you can call your army what ever you want.

 

This whole endeavor was about creating something NEW. Not complying with C:SM painted Green.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I'm detecting large quantities of heat emanating from this thread. I believe it's best to agree to disagree and leave it at that...

[con-fusion]

I'm detecting large quantities of heat emanating from this thread. I believe it's best to agree to disagree and leave it at that...

 

Maybe so. I will try to confine myself to the painting boards from here on.

[Brother iKon]

May I call peoples attention to page 24 fourth paragraph:

 

As set down in the Codex Astartes, Space Marines are organised into three main types of squad: Tactical, Assault and Devastator. Typiically, each is led by a Sergeant and includes nine other Space Marines, for a total of ten. Blah Blah Blah In Addition, each of the companies contains at least one command squad, and may contain one or more squads of Company Veterans.

 

My Battle Company consists of:

1 Master

1 Chaplain

6 Tactical squads

2 Assault squads (one in rhino)

2 Devastator squads (with additional heavy weapon options)

9 Rhinos 6 tactial marking 2 devastaor and one assault.

1 unmarked rhino for making a full 10 and vets can use it

several razorbacks no squad markings

4 Dreads numbered 1-4

 

An assortment of robed veterans including: these sometimes perform duty as squad sgt's as i don't applt squad numbers to sgt's.

2 Standards (1 company banner 1 sacred standard)

2 Apothecarys

1 Company Champion

some special weapons power weapons and storm shields.

 

I also have a Chapter banner bearer and another apothecary in case Azrael decides to join the battle (want to make a chapter champion also even if our codex does not allow it)

 

Also if a Chapter can have multiple Chapter Banners i see no reason that a Company cant have multiple Company Banners.

The army list seems to support this as it is not 1 per Company master like the Company Champion and it stats:

"One Veteran may be upgraded to a standard bearer carrying a(not THE) Company Standard.

[shabbadoo]

Codex over rules BRB: C:DA IC's can all have their own Command Squad. You have a problem with that? Play Smurfs.

This has nothing do do with rules, but with what a single Company has.

OK, Yes... If a Company has a Master, Chaplain and a Librarian, then they can have three Command Squads... Whats the problem? really, whats the problem??? Our Codex says so. So whats the problem???

 

Really it has nothing to do with rules. If you are a high ranking member of the Company you will have an Entourage of some sort. So, whats the problem???

 

You want to be myopically stuck into a 100 man Company? Then leave, there is no place for you here. If you are so stuck on what C:SM says, then there is no place for you here. Paint your Smurfs Green and have fun, I'll support your endeavors and you can call your army what ever you want.

 

You are missing the point. I am not talking about unit entries at all but about what a Company has. There is only one Company Standard. Any Veteran could be a Standard Bearer, but there is only one Company Standard for any of them to carry within any single Company. That is what I am referring to. Any other standard would have to be one of the Sacred Standards. I could care less about multiple entourages. What I am stating is that not every entourage is going to be carrying the Company Standard because there is only one of them for each Company.

 

This whole endeavor was about creating something NEW. Not complying with C:SM painted Green.

You might want to check what thread you are posting in. The OP is about discussing where Company Veterans come from and how they fit into things, and has nothing to do with any project development. It is just a simple question and discussion of it. There is nothing developmental at all for any project. Things have veered slightly off topic(though it is still related as it concerns Veterans), but try not to make the thread about something it is not about. This thread is not about DA Command Squads and what they could be made to be like as part of some project whatsoever. If it were, I could very well be posting something completely different than "C:SM painted green", as you like to put it.

[Darkness and Light]

I choose to replace tactical squads from the 6/2/2 company layout with Veteran squads. It seems reasonable to me that there will be squads that are simply better or more experienced. In my army the first and second tactical squads have battle damage and robes to indicate their veteran status.

 

I'm not a fan of the idea of veteran squads being pulled from different squads. For one thing it leaves those other squads under manned and leaderless which is a real problem. Second, putting people who haven't worked together into a dream team rarely works well.

 

I consider my command squads a third tactical squad that is split into two 5 man combat squads.

 

Thus my layout is

 

Squad 1 Veterans

Squad 2 Veterans

Squad 3 Tactical

Squad 4 Tactical

Squad 5 Tactical

Squad 6 Command Squad 1 & 2

[Alys Dwr]

For one thing it leaves those other squads under manned and leaderless which is a real problem.

However, it would further the forward development of the company. If a marine is moved off to other duties it would allow for a Scout to be promoted to full battle brother under happy circumstances; not just using them to fill the gaps left by fatalities. Moving this new marine straight into the battle company is a bit foolish, so i would expect a member of a reserve company to be shifted over the the battle company and have the new marine take his position in reserve.

 

Al

[Darkness and Light]

What other duties? Space Marine Chapters can't expand boundlessly, they are restricted in their growth in theory. According to one set of fluff about the priogitor gland, they have two in their bodies so each marine can theoretically spawn two more marines. However, most of the time the glands are lost. Thus to keep up with attrition Space Marines are dependent on the genetic repository on Terra that controls the release of gene seed to ensure the future of their chapter.

 

I would assume that entails restricting the number of marines at a time. Remember, the scouts haven't completed the process, they don't have the gene seed or the black carapace that allows them to make use of power armor. From that perspective, there are always slots from casualties to fill especially since they are in a constant state of war.

[Alys Dwr]

By other duties i meant to a veteran squad (if it is indeed a permanent formation), to a command squad or to the Deathwing.

 

Yes there are logistical limitations on the number of marines at a time, but the process is dynamic and continuous. I am aware that not all scouts on the have completed to process. Assuming there are scouts of all ages, every year there will be a fresh supply of 18yo scouts, ready to receive the black carapace and therefore ready to become a full fleged marine. What then? Thay get moved into the main chapter to replace another marine (for whatever reason).

 

And i understand that there is a constant state of War in 40k, but it's not like playing COD - we're not talking Imperial Guard here. You know, throwing countless numbers of short lived and expendable soldiers at the enemy. Marines are hard, they don't die easily. If they did then no chapter would have survived the last 10,000years. We have to assume that the recruitment process is more than enough to replace lost marines.

 

I'm merely trying to propose a sensible explanation as to how a Champter that does not obide by the exact leter of the Codex Astartes could easily move marines around to form additional units within each company. In this instance the much debated Veteran Squad.

 

Al

[FerociousBeast]

@Crimson Fisting: No, despite that "what if" scenario, you're still wrong: Company Veterans are not sergeants from other squads, though they may sometimes be, who knows.

 

But there's no reason to take it personally. Being wrong occasionally is a forgivable offense.

In the same sentence you tell me I'm wrong, then say they may be.

I suspected you would misunderstand me when I wrote that. Here's further clarification.

 

"Company Veterans" are not "sergeants from other squads", though a sergeant from a squad may perhaps join a CV squad. In other words, a CV is not a sergeant, though a sergeant might become a CV. I find it more likely that a marine would be promoted to sergeant after serving in a CV squad, as it seems rather a demotion to go to the CV squad after having commanded 9 men, but there's no fluff that states the exact hierarchy of promotions within a Battle Company, so either interpretation is fair game.

 

The important point is that, whether a Company Veteran first serves as a sergeant or not, once in the CV squad, the codex is clear that it's a full-time position. There is no support for Crimson Fisting's declaration that CV squad assignment is temporary and populated only by sergeants of other squads.

[Brother Kovash]

I'm not a fan of the idea of veteran squads being pulled from different squads. For one thing it leaves those other squads under manned and leaderless which is a real problem. Second, putting people who haven't worked together into a dream team rarely works well.

 

I just want to point out that I work in law enforcement, and there are times when I don't work with my steady partner for a week or so, but I never feel that I'm with someone who can't do their job. I'm sure the same goes for people in the military. People get shifted around often, and everyone has to make the best of it.

 

But I seriously doubt that battle-brothers with centuries of experience between them can't work together. I don't think any chapter would last long if that were true.

 

 

Regarding the issue of sergeants becoming Company Veterans, if a Company Master asked a sergeant or two from his battle company to join the veterans, but at the same time follow another veteran sergeant, does anyone here really think they would turn down such a request? Yes, Space Marines are full of pride, but I'm certain they've learned to check their ego at the door and do what's best for the company and the chapter as a whole.

[Slim]

I can't help but feel that, ultimately, this is a game and so how you decide to break up your squads is entirely up to you - no need to fall out over it.

 

veterans could be drawn from Sergeants, they could be made up of particularly skilled 'regular' marines, they could even be from somewhere else altogether. Chances are, as the Codex is seemingly a little unclear on the matter, it has never been 100% set in stone by GW either.

[pueriexdeus]

I can't help but feel that, ultimately, this is a game and so how you decide to break up your squads is entirely up to you - no need to fall out over it.

 

veterans could be drawn from Sergeants, they could be made up of particularly skilled 'regular' marines, they could even be from somewhere else altogether. Chances are, as the Codex is seemingly a little unclear on the matter, it has never been 100% set in stone by GW either.

That is because GW is waiting for us to do it for them. :lol:

[pueriexdeus]

I would personally like to apologize to shabbadoo and the board in general for my rant a couple of days ago.

 

It was immature and childish, both of which I try to avoid at all times.

 

Dan

[Bryan Blaire]

I'm with Brother Kovash here. Having been in the military and seen people moved between fire teams, squads, platoons and companies, I have no doubt that the Marines can do the same. I wasn't in any kind of Special Forces unit and after a couple of weeks of getting to know your new team-mates, generally you work together fine (now, whether you get along well is a completely different topic).

 

I also agree that there is no reason to worry about this or even debate it. It seems left somewhat open for a reason, as each player will interpret it differently and choose a different set up for their little version of the world. Heck, you could go so far as to say that each company in each Chapter may actually organize the Company Veterans squad(s) differently.