The Armoury

[MaveriK]

EPISODE TWO: Chooser of the Slain

 

A thread about the sacred relics of the (Vlka Fenyka) Space Wolves Chapter. This is a tech+fluff based discussion about our wargear. This is meant to be a fun discussion about our sacred relics. Giving us a different look at our mighty chapter, and hopefully gaining insight and appreciation of our fluff as a whole.

 

Today we talk about the Chooser of the Slain, or what ancient tongues may refer to as familiars. So what do we know about these creatures? the first known mention of a Chooser, was during the second edition Space Wolf codex. Nightwing, is the only named Chooser we know today, as Njal Stormcaller's cyber-raven. During the third edition codex, a Chooser of the Slain counted as an additional close combat weapon, along with the rules we know today in the fifth edition Space Wolf codex. Did our Rune Priest have Choosers during the great crusade?

 

We also know that these creatures are attuned to a Rune Priest brain pattern. It can fly ahead of the Rune Priest so that he can see, what it sees and will protect him if he is attacked. Often taking the form of a psyber-raven, the Chooser of the Slain is a fusion of flesh and steel that acts as familiar and spy for the Rune Priests.

 

Now lets look at the rules, and what we know. First, we know that this marker must be smaller than the Rune Priest model and cannot be destroyed. With that alone, I can understand why a Chooser model must be smaller because it's trying to stay within the fluff of a mechanical creature. However at the same time, that restriction limits several people with being more creative with making a Chooser model. But does that make them wrong? should it really matter since it can't be destroyed anyway? or are people just forgetting that it's only a familiar? I can understand why people might call foul if say the Chooser model was on a larger base than a Rune Priest. But at the same time, if you put a cyber-raven on a taller 25mm base like a lamp, does that make it wrong or unfluffy since it IS a Chooser, and it IS doing what birds do when not in flight. Do people call foul if its on a taller model? is it wrong to do so? especially if the Chooser is the bird, and you measure from the bird alone and not the entire model. Or is it completely abusing a TLOS rule because it is on a taller/higher model? is there a right or wrong with making Chooser models? these are something I'd like to talk about and explore......

 

Second, we know that enemy units may not use their Infiltrate rule to deploy within 18" of a Chooser marker. And if our Rune Priest has line of sight to the Chooser mark, his BS is one higher than normal. This again goes back to all the questions I had earlier on making a Chooser model.

 

Tactics with a Chooser of the Slain. Well since we know Infiltrators can't deploy within 18" of a Chooser marker, and since our Wolves have the Leaders of the Pack special. We can have more than one Rune Priest, therefore we could have two Chooser markers preventing your opponent from Infiltrating your Wolf forces from both sides of the table. So lets hear your thoughts on Choosers of the Slain. Show your models, and discuss this size issue I brought up above. I would also love to hear other people's tactics or careful placing of the markers. Do you keep them on the sides to protect your flank, or have the Chooser near your Long Fangs to prevent your veterans from being destroyed early by a surprise Infiltrate squad/unit.

 

--EDIT--

apologies, I was writing in the moment. Corrected and removed outflanks

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

Chooser doesn't stop outflanks. It only stops infiltrating.

 

It should be smaller than the Rune Priest. If it isn't, it needs to at least be on a 28mm base like the Priest for measurement purposes, and the line of sight you draw from it cannot be at a height taller than your own Priest. And this would necessarily need to be explained pre-game.

[MaveriK]

It should be smaller than the Rune Priest. If it isn't, it needs to at least be on a 28mm base like the Priest for measurement purposes, and the line of sight you draw from it cannot be at a height taller than your own Priest. And this would necessarily need to be explained pre-game.

Okay, so I'm going to explore/expand on this more so just bare with me.. just to let you know, I completely understand what you mean but humor me with this. When the rules say, "smaller than a Rune Priest" one would assume, they meant the Chooser, yes? yes. Okay so what if, you have a bird perched on a tall lamp in a 25mm base does that make it wrong? I know the word smaller doesn't really specify the words height or width. But would you call foul on the model?

 

and your comment on "the line of sight you draw from it cannot be at the height taller than your own Priest." Does that not limit you on how you make Chooser models? would it matter since the Chooser model can't be targeted by your opponent nor destroyed. Does it really matter if say the bird is flying or perched taller than your Rune Priest and you ONLY measure from the bird? but would either side really gain any benefit from this? is it really that HUGE of a deal? I'm NOT saying your wrong... I'm just trying to explore more on this as a whole.

[MaveriK]

from http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=223909

 

The 28mm base is still there, so I just measure from that. (the extra width comes from a washer I added for stability). Also, I don't see how the wing span comes into play? And as for height - if someone really complained I wouldn't mind measuring from her hands or something.

I really didn't model her thinking "hurr now she can see everything hurr."

 

Well that's good. But again, the thing is wargear, not a model or unit or whatever. It is sensible to say the wings don't count, you'll measure from the base... but those are restraints you are imposing on yourself because you broke the only rule for the Chooser that there is. There is no "don't count the wings on the Chooser" or other made up rules. There's one rule, which you broke. I personally wouldn't care about your model in a game, provided we went over everything first, but if I was running a tournament, no way. It is clearly way bigger than the Rune Priest, which as an explicit no-no. Oh yeah and this:

 

And as for height - if someone really complained I wouldn't mind...

 

is making you look REALLY bad. No one should have to complain. You should go out of your way to tell your opponent that your Chooser will be treated as no bigger than the Rune Priest in every sense. You are the one in the wrong, so you should take it upon yourself to clarify and fix your rules breach. Don't wait for someone to complain. Jesus.

your right about Choosers being wargear, but saying it's not a model or unit or whatever contradicts Fenrisian Wolves, Bikes, Attack-Bikes and Thunderwolf Mounts.. since they are models and units and also considered as wargear....

 

you measure from a Choosers base? if you measure from the Choosers base, including DapperDave's model, or any Chooser for that fact.. then visually, that Chooser or any Chooser is pretty much non-existent!? is it not?? not to mention almost everything on the table will block LOS if you measure from the Chooser's base. Oh it will definitely be smaller alright, because its about the same size/height as a Rune Priest boot. But why would its height matter since it can't be destroyed or targeted by your opponent?

 

again.. a person's creativity with a model shouldn't really be thwarted or dismissed in a way to belittle them because he broke the one rule about a Chooser's size, especially.. if that rule about it's size, which I honestly believe in my own opinion was only put there for fluff purposes.

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

Okay so what if, you have a bird perched on a tall lamp in a 25mm base does that make it wrong?

 

I would think so, assuming by "tall lamp" you mean taller than the Priest.. Imagine if the bird is perched on a 4 foot pole which is on the 25mm base. Obviously the chooser model as a whole would be bigger (taller) than the Rune Priest, but even worse, said Chooser would have line of sight to everything on the board, which would be an advantage if the goal is for the Priest to shoot at things with a good ballistic skill. Note that this destroys your fluff argument. But even if it didn't, "rule is there only for fluff" is not a valid reason to ignore a rule and expect others to agree with you.

 

As for measuring from the base. You only measure from the base to determine the anti-infiltrate bubble. There is no need to measure for line of sight, seeing as how there is no distance limit to what the chooser can see. What effects LOS is the height of the Chooser model, which is why I reckon GW put in the restriction to keep Choosers small.

[MaveriK]

Okay so what if, you have a bird perched on a tall lamp in a 25mm base does that make it wrong?

 

I would think so, assuming by "tall lamp" you mean taller than the Priest.. Imagine if the bird is perched on a 4 foot pole which is on the 25mm base. Obviously the chooser model as a whole would be bigger (taller) than the Rune Priest, but even worse, said Chooser would have line of sight to everything on the board, which would be an advantage if the goal is for the Priest to shoot at things with a good ballistic skill.

even I would call foul on a 4ft pole. I meant talking about a reasonable, acceptable height and not something over the top.

 

Okay so what if, you have a bird perched on a tall lamp in a 25mm base does that make it wrong?

As for measuring from the base. You only measure from the base to determine the anti-infiltrate bubble. There is no need to measure for line of sight, seeing as how there is no distance limit to what the chooser can see. What effects LOS is the height of the Chooser model, which is why I reckon GW put in the restriction to keep Choosers small.

I know I was just messing with you LOL

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

even I would call foul on a 4ft pole. I meant talking about a reasonable, acceptable height and not something over the top.

 

What's reasonable? Who decides? Why not just go with the actual super clear rule that is already there? And if you just have to make the Chooser bigger, notify your opponent that you will pretend it isn't bigger in the game to avoid the nonsense.

[MaveriK]

So what are some acceptable Chooser markers? Servo Skulls, and little birds... any others? Here is a recent Chooser thread with some great marker examples http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=222568

 

p.s.

@Fred, no worries wolf brother! my Chooser models are all within the appropriate size, in both height and rules :(

[Schertenleib]

Here's my Rune Priest and Chooser.

I use the spear point and horns like a gun sight for LOS.

[Valerian]

Smaller doesn't necessarily mean shorter, nor does it really affect base size. Just use something with less mass than a Space Marine and you are good. Just like with anything in this game, when folks start doing something wacky for personal advantage then you call them on it. Putting a bird on a lamp post is just fine.

 

I haven't bothered to make a real CotS yet; it is one of the last models that I've got to do. For the games that I have played with one so far, I've just used the "spotter Gretchin" with a telescope (big gunz crewmember), and put him up on the tallest piece of terrain that I can find; he almost always has TLoS to the majority of the board.

 

Valerian

[Wulfenstein]

It's a bird, if it wants to fly it is going to have LoS to what it wants.... That being said.... ..

 

Creativity wise, I feel people can do whatever to model it the way they want. To make it easy, say only measure at the base for LoS and general measuring. It's a counter/token on the gameboard that does nothing, especially if you make it clear where you will be doing the measuring for anything at.

 

If people really have an issue, they are probably rule nazi's and shouldn't be playing in this hobby as it is for fun and creativity.

[MaveriK]

I argee with Valerian and Wulfenstein!

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

I argee with Valerian and Wulfenstein!

 

No you don't, not with Wulfenstein at least, because he said to measure line of sight from the base, which you said was a bad idea earlier in the thread. Obviously measuring LOS from the base would mean little if anything would be in the Chooser's line of sight. So the sensible answer is to measure from the top of the chooser, unless the chooser is taller than the rune priest for some reason.

[MaveriK]

LOL, FINALLY! i'm surprised no one caught that earlier. Anyway, I'd like to see your Chooser Fred. Do you have one?

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

LOL, FINALLY! i'm surprised no one caught that earlier. Anyway, I'd like to see your Chooser Fred. Do you have one?

 

I've got one, no picture yet. Nothing special and every chooser posted in this thread is far more fitting. It's more of a joke really. It is a snowman.

[Valerian]

I argee with Valerian and Wulfenstein!

 

No you don't, not with Wulfenstein at least, because he said to measure line of sight from the base, which you said was a bad idea earlier in the thread. Obviously measuring LOS from the base would mean little if anything would be in the Chooser's line of sight. So the sensible answer is to measure from the top of the chooser, unless the chooser is taller than the rune priest for some reason.

 

Distances are measured to and from a model's base (or the hull if it is a vehicle). LOS is determined from the "model's eye view" (or from weapon mounts on a vehicle). Therefor, the Infiltration "exclusion zone" would be determined by measuring an 18" diameter circle from the base of the Chooser model. Putting the model on a 40mm base vice a 25mm base would therefor give the owner a bit of an advantage that you could challenge them on, if it really bothers you. LOS, being determined from model's eye view, doesn't have a range, and is unaffected by the base, but can be improved by elevaing your Chooser. However, as there are no restrictions to where you can deploy the Chooser, you can plop it down on the highest terrain feature and get that elevation anyway.

 

V

[Warhead01]

I think this is being very over thought out. (The post above mine says it all lol.) I'm sorry. I have a plastic vulture from some old britonian kit sitting on a mound of earth. However, during the game I place/deploy it on a high point on the board to draw los I don't be leave it has to be "on the table" so I use the terrain. As you said above though I had not spent much time thinking about using more than 1 chooser though thinking more about it now 2 choosers may be the way to go If used creatively that bubble could work out very well.

[MaveriK]

if say there was an advantageous ruin/building at the center point of the table. could you therefore negate your opponent from taking that building if there were NO infiltrators. By placing your chooser marker on say the ledge/upper floor in that building, could your opponent occupy the same space as your chooser? or do they still have to be an inch away from your model? would this be a good way to RSVP a spot for your wolf forces? or am i missing something here... i'm just on the fly man, don't have the BRB on hand or my wolf codex. What would happen if you placed a chooser marker on or right beside a game objective?

[Warhead01]

I wasn't going in that directions myself I was more or less thinking about the added "BS" with the hight to add a strong view point for the chooser. As far as terrain denial I think as long as they are not infiltrating then their should be no reason they couldn't set up in the same terrain..it may be a grey area, in which I am referring to say dawn of war deployment zones/18" away from an enemy models. so not sure their but a toothy tactic if it is legal. though not one to fear because their are so many possibilities in random games, armies/ builds and the like.

[postal105]

never mind miss read it