SW vs BA, the war rages on..

[LoneSniperSG]

This week's army list found here: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=223831

 

Third or Fourth week in a row now fighting Blood Angels. I think this week had the best outcomes with me, as there were relatively few losses on my part, and whatever died was easily made up for.

 

I believe I finally have the right Leader combo. The Wolf Lord is OMG in Close Combat, and gave the Death Co and their buddy Lemartes a run for their money. Raw killing power. Much fun had.

 

Since I don't have to worry about Blood Talon spam anymore, I'm considering dropping one of the Dreadnoughts and replacing him with Wolf Guard in the packs, which will have to shrink down to eight members each in order for this to happen. I just don't think I'm cranking out as much death as is possible with our book. Would CC-armed Wolf Guard with MotW help me out?

 

Also, is there a reliable way around Feel No Pain? The freaking Sanguinary Priests are really getting on my nerves The only thing I can think of are instant death weapons, like my Vindicator(s), Snipers and power weapons. There seem to be too few of these to help me deal with that stupid crap, so that's something I'll have to work on.

 

One thing I had to ask to make sure I've got this right in my head. When you have a character like a Wolf Lord who has a CCW and a pistol, the bonus only adds one extra attack, right? For some reason I thought it doubled the number of attacks. (I wish..)

[Grimtooth]

Sang Priests are IC so in CC try and get your hidden power weapons and fists into btb with them.

 

As for ranged, just pour massed fire into them. Massed fire works on TDA and negating a 2+ every now and then which is what you will need to do with Sang Preists and the FnP bubble.

[LoneSniperSG]

Massed fire.. With all the moving around trying to get to the Strat points I have no good ideas on how to do that. I pop shots when I can but it doesn't seem to be enough.

[Stormshrug]

One thing I had to ask to make sure I've got this right in my head. When you have a character like a Wolf Lord who has a CCW and a pistol, the bonus only adds one extra attack, right? For some reason I thought it doubled the number of attacks. (I wish..)

 

It's just +1.

 

-Stormshrug

[LoneSniperSG]

One thing I had to ask to make sure I've got this right in my head. When you have a character like a Wolf Lord who has a CCW and a pistol, the bonus only adds one extra attack, right? For some reason I thought it doubled the number of attacks. (I wish..)

 

It's just +1.

 

-Stormshrug

 

Thought so. Thanks Storm.

[Quillen]

Doesn't matter. If the fist is within 2 inches of a guy base to base it's game on. The fist is on the squad not an IC itself. And can direct it's attacks against the IC.

[Sigmund Hammerhand]

Also, is there a reliable way around Feel No Pain?

 

Terminators with storm shield and wolf claws. Screw thunder hammers, they're too slow.

 

A unit of those, with a wolf priest can really mess up your opponent's day. They mash through almost any unit (they mow down 8 tactical marines if they're with a wolf priest - that's without the WP's attacks), and they're very hard to kill, need no cover at all, and come at a reasonable price. You can even stick a CML on one of the guys.

[Grimtooth]

Doesn't matter. If the fist is within 2 inches of a guy base to base it's game on. The fist is on the squad not an IC itself. And can direct it's attacks against the IC.

 

I think you have it wrong here.

 

IC are part of a unit they join for all intents and purposes except close combat where they fight as a unit of their own. I was under the impression that to allocate specific weapon attacks, namely powerfists or power weapons in this instance, they would need to be in base to base with the IC.

[LoneSniperSG]

Nice to know I just figured out Death Company aren't crap compared to Grey Hunters with a WGL+IC. Six is the usual number for his DC, so If shoot at them and then charge them with a Greys squad then most likely those Death Co are dead.

 

Consider that if I have 8 greys, that's 16 attacks on a charge, plus a WGL's three attacks, and my Lord's six attacks. I like those odds. 25 attacks man. I like that number.

 

Who would have thought that you run AT the crazy men in black?

[Kaan]

Grey hunters would have 3 attacks on the charge (1 base, 1 for the extra cc weapon, 1 for charging)

[Grimtooth]

Nice to know I just figured out Death Company aren't crap compared to Grey Hunters with a WGL+IC. Six is the usual number for his DC, so If shoot at them and then charge them with a Greys squad then most likely those Death Co are dead.

 

Consider that if I have 8 greys, that's 16 attacks on a charge, plus a WGL's three attacks, and my Lord's six attacks. I like those odds. 25 attacks man. I like that number.

 

Who would have thought that you run AT the crazy men in black?

 

Toss in a wolf standard and you have just about guaranteed their dstruction and your survival.

[Sigmund Hammerhand]

IC are part of a unit they join for all intents and purposes except close combat where they fight as a unit of their own. I was under the impression that to allocate specific weapon attacks, namely powerfists or power weapons in this instance, they would need to be in base to base with the IC.

 

If the guy with the PF is within 2 inches of a model in contact with the IC, he is free to attack the IC as well.

 

Consider that if I have 8 greys, that's 16 attacks on a charge, plus a WGL's three attacks, and my Lord's six attacks. I like those odds. 25 attacks man. I like that number.

 

How'd you like the number 33 instead? as mentioned above, the GH get 3 attacks on the chargre, and thanks to counter attacks also mostly when they get charged themselves.

 

Also, in that list of yours, you don't have wolf standards. This is a mistake, no matter which way you cut it. With wolf standard, for one turn these guys are tougher than terminators against attacks that don't ignore armour saves (their chance of saving goes from 67% to 89%), and terminators become nigh unkillable (well there is a 2.8% chance the guy is going to die, but still). You also don't suffer from snake eyes any more (well, if you're capable of not rolling them twice in a row :teehee: ). For its price, it's a hell of a piece of equipment, and not something that should be missing in any squad.

 

The other thing I noticed is that your rune priests are illegal. They need both different powers and different equipment.

 

EDIT - I also commented on your list, in case you're interested ;)

[LoneSniperSG]

How'd you like the number 33 instead? as mentioned above, the GH get 3 attacks on the chargre, and thanks to counter attacks also mostly when they get charged themselves.

 

Also, in that list of yours, you don't have wolf standards. This is a mistake, no matter which way you cut it. With wolf standard, for one turn these guys are tougher than terminators against attacks that don't ignore armour saves (their chance of saving goes from 67% to 89%), and terminators become nigh unkillable (well there is a 2.8% chance the guy is going to die, but still). You also don't suffer from snake eyes any more (well, if you're capable of not rolling them twice in a row :teehee: ). For its price, it's a hell of a piece of equipment, and not something that should be missing in any squad.

 

Late hour. My math sucks. And I've been working with plastic cement for two hours... But my god, I see why I play Space Wolves. Here this whole time I thought that the rerolls only applied to attacks and not to armor saves.

 

I don't see where you're getting the toughness thing from though.

 

The other thing I noticed is that your rune priests are illegal. They need both different powers and different equipment.

Oh yay. I wish they had never written that in. It's been nothing but a pain in my backside..

 

Thanks Sigmund and Brother Rameses. Now if I can just get around his prancing stuff, I'll be fine. While We may have figured out the unit I mentioned above gets 33 attacks, it means nothing if I can't charge him (although 25 attacks is nice too). Short of taking a Land Raider (Mine is in the shop for repairs), I don't see how I can mimic his prancing jump-packs and still get to assault, unless I specifically tailor a Jumping Wolf Guard pack to go in with my Wolf Lord and hunt the big bads. ... I could do that, but talk about expensive.

We just HAVE to shun jump-packs, don't we? Idiots we are..

 

By the way, what about using Mark of the Wulfen? I've never used it in this current edition and only rarely in the previous one.

[Sigmund Hammerhand]

I don't see where you're getting the toughness thing from though.

 

Well with being tougher than terminators I just meant that their likelihood of passing an armour save is higher than that of a terminator.

 

EDIT - nevermind that, my brain just kicked in. They're nearly as tough as terminators with the wolf standard.

 

By the way, what about using Mark of the Wulfen? I've never used it in this current edition and only rarely in the previous one.

 

I think in the comment on your army list (that I wrote over a long time while watching a movie so it turned out rather lengthy) I mention somewhere that mark of the wolfen is slightly better than a power weapon. On average, against marines, the power weapon gets 0.75 kills on the charge whereas the mark of the wolfen gets slightly more (around about 0.78 if I Remember correctly - I spent all day at uni so my brain is on strike, which means I can't work it out right now). Oh, and in case you roll a 1 under the influence of a wolf standar, you get to re-roll that bugger too.

[dragon950]

Blood Claws with power fists are beasty when charging death company with a wolf priest and wolf guard. 67-ish attacks that reroll, 6 power fist attacks, 5 from the wolf priest. Give them some plasma pistols and they wreck the death company. Course they will lose a good amount of their own, but isn't that what the blood claws are for.

[Emperors Immortals]

If you need to kill DC, use the same principal as killing Priests; an obscene amount of CC attacks.

 

Nice rep BTW.

[DV8]

IC are part of a unit they join for all intents and purposes except close combat where they fight as a unit of their own. I was under the impression that to allocate specific weapon attacks, namely powerfists or power weapons in this instance, they would need to be in base to base with the IC.

 

If the guy with the PF is within 2 inches of a model in contact with the IC, he is free to attack the IC as well.

 

Don't forget that if the Power Fist happens to be locked in combat (as in base to base) with another model/unit (say the unit that the Priest was attached to), he'll have to attack that unit instead of the Priest. So unless you can guarantee that the Power Fist won't hit base to base with another model (from say, your opponent's Defender's React move), s'all good as long as he's within 2". If not, get the Fist into base to base.

 

 

DV8

[MalachiOfRuss]

Yeah, I think every Grey Hunter unit should always have Wolf Standard and MotW. As for getting around FnP, Marines have more options that other armies: Power Weapons (or Rending attacks, like MotW), Plasma, and Melta all bypass FnP. So if you're really having trouble with it, I'd swap out Melta guns for Plasma guns for the extra FnP-bypassing shot. Also attach WG with PF or PW. Murderous Hurricane and Tempest's Wrath should be top priorities for Psychic Powers for you as they really hamper BA movement - and their mobility is usually key to their army. If you pop MH on a unit of DC that prevents them from charging you for a turn because of the Difficult Terrain Test, it will have more than made up for the cost of the whole Rune Priest right there.

[LoneSniperSG]

67 attacks with fully-loaded BC's, Wolf Leader and Priest? Holy frijole. I might have to try that, although even if it's a "bucket-o-dice" method I don't like the idea of hitting on 5's.. But what the hey. Why not. That's how IG gets things done.

 

We'll bring in some Blood Claws with a beasty Wolf-Clawed WGL, plus a Wolf Priest and cart them in a Crusader to make sure they charge the Death Co. Yeah?

 

If not, then Greys, WGL and Rune Priest to deal with the Death Co.

 

Yeah, I think every Grey Hunter unit should always have Wolf Standard and MotW. As for getting around FnP, Marines have more options that other armies: Power Weapons (or Rending attacks, like MotW), Plasma, and Melta all bypass FnP. So if you're really having trouble with it, I'd swap out Melta guns for Plasma guns for the extra FnP-bypassing shot. Also attach WG with PF or PW. Murderous Hurricane and Tempest's Wrath should be top priorities for Psychic Powers for you as they really hamper BA movement - and their mobility is usually key to their army. If you pop MH on a unit of DC that prevents them from charging you for a turn because of the Difficult Terrain Test, it will have more than made up for the cost of the whole Rune Priest right there.

 

Love it. I think I see what to do with my Troops next game. And I know just how to do it.

[MalachiOfRuss]

67 attacks with fully-loaded BC's, Wolf Leader and Priest? Holy frijole. I might have to try that, although even if it's a "bucket-o-dice" method I don't like the idea of hitting on 5's.. But what the hey. Why not. That's how IG gets things done.

BC only hit on 5's when shooting. WS 3 hits on 4+ up to an opposing WS 6, only if the opponent's is WS 7 do they start to hit on 5+. So, just don't charge a Dark Eldar Archon or Mephiston, and you're still hitting on 4+. It's your opponent that gets the "buff" from BC: they hit on 3+ instead of 4+, so expect a lot of them to die.

[Grimtooth]

As has been mentioned, BA get their main benefit with the charge whereas our Wolves are both effective on the charge and receiving the charge.

 

Murderos Hurricane and Tempest Wrath are two powers that can absolutely debilitate the BA desire to close with you as quickly as possible and make it costly to do so.

 

Jump Infantry is making a gamble every move when affected by either power. Storm Ravens chance not only being destroyed themsleves, but with most of them moving Flat Out to get the 3+ cover save before deploying their payloads, they now chance losing said payload completely as well due to the new FAQ.

 

Playing BA is really just taking away their mobility on which they need to have in order to maximize themselvs in close combat. If they do not have the charge, they are quite weak in comparison to our Grey Hunters.

[LoneSniperSG]

Deleted.

[LoneSniperSG]

As has been mentioned, BA get their main benefit with the charge whereas our Wolves are both effective on the charge and receiving the charge.

 

Murderos Hurricane and Tempest Wrath are two powers that can absolutely debilitate the BA desire to close with you as quickly as possible and make it costly to do so.

 

Jump Infantry is making a gamble every move when affected by either power. Storm Ravens chance not only being destroyed themsleves, but with most of them moving Flat Out to get the 3+ cover save before deploying their payloads, they now chance losing said payload completely as well due to the new FAQ.

 

Playing BA is really just taking away their mobility on which they need to have in order to maximize themselvs in close combat. If they do not have the charge, they are quite weak in comparison to our Grey Hunters.

 

I should ask, do Skyclaws then have the same odds and performance as regular Blood Claws? They might be easier to use to squish those belligerent Death Company. I've got a Jump-WG, Wolf Priest and Rune Priest to lead them.

 

Probably a really stupid question, since they're just Blood Claws with jump packs, but an intelligent opponent is probably more likely to shoot Skyclaws to death than Blood Claws.

[Sarapham]

67 attacks with fully-loaded BC's, Wolf Leader and Priest? Holy frijole. I might have to try that, although even if it's a "bucket-o-dice" method I don't like the idea of hitting on 5's.. But what the hey. Why not. That's how IG gets things done.

BC only hit on 5's when shooting.

 

4+

[Freman Bloodglaive]

As has been mentioned, BA get their main benefit with the charge whereas our Wolves are both effective on the charge and receiving the charge.

 

Murderos Hurricane and Tempest Wrath are two powers that can absolutely debilitate the BA desire to close with you as quickly as possible and make it costly to do so.

 

Jump Infantry is making a gamble every move when affected by either power. Storm Ravens chance not only being destroyed themsleves, but with most of them moving Flat Out to get the 3+ cover save before deploying their payloads, they now chance losing said payload completely as well due to the new FAQ.

 

Playing BA is really just taking away their mobility on which they need to have in order to maximize themselvs in close combat. If they do not have the charge, they are quite weak in comparison to our Grey Hunters.

 

I should ask, do Skyclaws then have the same odds and performance as regular Blood Claws? They might be easier to use to squish those belligerent Death Company. I've got a Jump-WG, Wolf Priest and Rune Priest to lead them.

 

Probably a really stupid question, since they're just Blood Claws with jump packs, but an intelligent opponent is probably more likely to shoot Skyclaws to death than Blood Claws.

 

Skyclaws are good but have to be fielded in large squads (I take10) and need to take a Wolf Priest and can't take a Wolf Guard Leader. Give them a power fist and the mark of the Wulfen. Against the army you describe take "jump infantry" as their vow.

 

Treat them as a countercharge unit, hitting weakened units.