Greywing

[Chengar Qordath]

So, going off rumors and the leaked codex, we know the Grey Knights have the ability to field a very Terminator-centric force. Our basic Terminators are already Troops choices, and we can back them up with the Elite Paladins (or go even further and take Draigo to make Paladins Troops). Having access to better teleporting, Stormravens, and the usual selection of Land Raiders leaves us no shortage of ways to deliver our Terminators to the frontlines, as well. All things considered, the Grey Knights are very well placed to field an all-Terminator force.

 

On the other hand, the power armor models do have a lot going for them, and fielding Greywing means giving up on a lot of very nice units. So, do people think an all-terminator list would be viable in the new GK Codex?

[Gentlemanloser]

I think it will be very viable.

 

Cheap Terminators thorugh Mordrak, Psycannons, and Storm Ravens/Land Raider Reedemers.

 

For the same cost as a SM Terminator we get S5, and either I5 or a 4++ save, on top of some other nice little pluses (like Grenades!!!!).

 

While we lack Drop Pods, we have the potential to use 'Scout' on larger TDA units, to get them a little closer to our opponents right form the start.

 

Greywing/Knightwing probably won't be the most effective build, while will probably involve Purifiers, Strike Squads for Warp Quake and The DreadKnight (for just uber-ness), but I think it will still be quite potent in it's own right.

 

A nice bonus to the expensive Paladin is that they can get 2 Special Weapons per 5, unlike 1 per 5 you would normally get.

[Slind]

I've tried to build something along those lines for the last week (Maybe not exclusive Terminators, but very close). I think it all come down to Wargear. Looking only at the leaked dex, I think the low model-count, coupled with the weak ranged invulnerable save is the show stopper.

Things that could remedy the problem, would be some measure of redeployment after the intial deepstrike. Those few units are goig to cover ALOT of gound on their own.

 

Anyways - here is my thoughts on the Terminator-options, based on some playtesting:

 

Regular Terminators: Well... they are terminators, and they are troops! I love them, but they need to go down in force or be deployed via an expensive Land Raider - otherwise they 1. lack shooting punch 2. They are desimated too quickly by Melta

 

Ghosts: FABULOUS!, They are dirt cheap, and has measures to counter 1. delivery problems 2. shooting via. stealth ... on top of that the HQ they bring along is a beast!

 

Paladins: I really want to love these guys - they have soooo much going for them... except... with all the melta going around these days, that 5++ save is not enough to protect your 55++ investment. People tend to shoot terminators with AT anyway, so those 2 wounds are not going to do you any good. Which is the same reason, that Feel No Pain upgrade is wasted.

 

These problems may be remedied by some of the wargear we havn't seem yet, but until such time, I have found that they need so much support (dakka, mobility, protection) from other units, that it is very hard to cram into a 2000 pts. list.

[Utsujin]

I don't see an all terminator list doing well at all. Maybe heavy in the terminator department. Our troops are expensive as it is, even power armored stuff, which can be a lot more mobile. I guess we'll have to wait and see until the book comes out.

[lordsloth]

I doubt a full terminator force will be viable tbh. (With the current status of the rumours anyway). They'll do alright against certain lists but I feel there will be glaring weaknesses.

 

Killing high Av will be hard because a terminator force isnt gonna be fielding as many psycannons as a power armour list. Also, if you mass fire your psycannons at the landraider or whatever it is, at only one psycannon per 5 pairs of boots (give or take), youre probably going to be losing alot of your already limited stormbolter shots on impenetrable hulls. (Perhaps this can be slightly aleviated by taking ten strongs and combatsquadding into a 2 psycannon unit and an all stormbolter unit)

 

They'll do well in infantry melee but will likely suffer against high monstrous creatures and dreadnoughts, lacking (in so far as we know) strength doubling equipment. (And your librarian cannot be everywhere at once).

 

The lack of reliable ranged invuls is also going to make manouvring a tough task against high AP gunline armies.

 

I think for a viable terminator force you'll need to allow for about 1/3 non terminator themed units to shore up the weaknesses left and right so that the terminators can do their thing unimpeded.

 

Theres alot of cool fancy stuff in the rumours but I feel like the best lists are going to be unfancy but reliable power armoured boots on the table with a libby at the head and as many psycannons as you can pack.

[Gentlemanloser]

All TDA forces will rely heavily on Transports.

 

LR or SR.

 

For both Anti Tank roles, and to shore up the low-ish ranged survivability until they can close in Melee.

 

It will be like Dual/Tri Raider lists of old, yet containing Scoring Terminators and not PAGK.

[lordsloth]

It will be like Dual/Tri Raider lists of old, yet containing Scoring Terminators and not PAGK.

 

And much to their detriment in my opinion. I dont think GKT are as polyvalent as old timey PAGK (I'm gonna miss those overcosted bastards). GKT are good at assault but bring so few guns to the table that they cant make it count in the shooting phase. And the old multi raider lists just dont work as a fire assault army.

 

Conversely, the new GKSS that replace the PAGK of old are the opposite end of the spectrum. Cheaper cost and new psycannons make them far better in the shooting phase than old timey PAGK but the loss of true grit really hits their combat potential (the loss of str for power weapons is a roughly even trade imho (situationally in favour of one or the other though), its the loss of an attack that really hurts.

 

I think for an updated version of the old multi raider lists we need to look to purifiers. But Crowe's lack of IC is annoying.

Anyhow, thats not the subject of the topic so i'll shut up now, sorry :P

[Gentlemanloser]

Of course, this all relies on wargear. ;)

 

If the Brotherhood Banner does do something like let's you reroll saves, then the GKT come out heads and shoulders above GKSS and Purifiers.

 

I've no idea what they do (and they're limited to TDA units only), but it can't be as good as rerollable saves.

[lordsloth]

Of course, this all relies on wargear. ;)

 

If the Brotherhood Banner does do something like let's you reroll saves, then the GKT come out heads and shoulders above GKSS and Purifiers.

 

I've no idea what they do (and they're limited to TDA units only), but it can't be as good as rerollable saves.

 

Even if it is rerollable saves (and lets be honest, it probably isnt or itll only be for one turn) then your GKT are stil gonna suffer from lack of offensive abilities. They still have poor shooting power and the banner takes away one nemesis weapon, weakening them by roughly 20% in assault.

 

Super-low model count termieraider or loladin lists are going to suffer from the fact that while, yes, they are survivable, they still only have a 2 for their attack stat and a stormbolter on their wrist (save for the odd psycannon). Not enough choppy and dakka to murder back their points. You might still have a shot at killpoint missions because you dont have many killpoints to give up but objective missions are going to be a pain. I mean, sure, theyre scoring. But if they cant murder enough contesting squads theyre going to draw or lose.

[hmk17]

Really depends on where you want the army to be viable.

 

As a army to play where ever, yeah it does look viable.

 

For tournaments, it has its pluses; though I see Jokaero spam being the first thing people try at tourneys. If built smart, a Paladin list could do very well depending on the tournament and the scenarios.

[Brom MKIV]

I agree hmk17, and overall I think greywing will work. Just look at similar wing armies that have functioned successfully throughout the years. Most dont have 2 wound terminators, psychic pie plate shooting attacks, 36" rending autocannons, scouting or scoring monstrous creatures and so on. Greywing also has the benefit of not even needing an unlock character (unless you want scoring paladins that is). I think greywing will be fine. Will it be the high end of competative GK lists? probably not, but it definitely has potential. One of the weaknesses I see is the lack of THs, PFs, or CF. A few dreadknights and a couple daemonhammer characters or libbys could sort this out decently though if it becomes a real problem.

[soots]

just a though

mordrak's ghost terminators dont have a limit to them

so you could take a unit of 40+ terminators with him....

i prob wont do this but it could be fun

[Gentlemanloser]

May inculde up to nine additional Ghost Knights

 

Max Squad saize is 11.

 

Mordrak, the base 1 Ghost Knight, and an additional 9.

 

Although this doesn't include the potential extra three from wounds on Mordrak.

[Oiad]

Mordrack and his Ghost Terminators help tackle one of the larger problems taking Terminators units have, if only as a one off – expense. Terminators while attractive just aren't as economical when lined-up to their less-experienced battle brothers. But at 32 points Ghost Terminators are more in line with what (I believe) we should be paying. Okay, so you have to pay out 200pts to get them but you quickly make the 25pts back you would have spent getting a normal GM+GKTs. After that anything else is a bonus. If you want Terminators, he's a top option to take imo.

 

As for the topic itself, as already stated it requires us to make a lot of assumptions considering we still don't know what other wargear like psyk-out grenades and psilencers do. I'd like to hope that there's a role for them but from a quick glance it doesn't look overly-promising. Other builds definitely look stronger against particular styles. Against hordes, a Purifier army seems more effective while Mech is well handled by Cotaez and his goons who will allow you access to cheap melta. Both will put more bodies on the board than Greywing and have as strong a wealth of options so they're gonna be very appealing. Against other army-types, terminators may stand a better chance in finding a purpose. I'm looking forward to playing them against certain SM armies. It will be interesting to see how they fair against hammernators and other tanking SM units. Some have already scoffed that they don't stand a chance but I reckon the outcome could be closer in reality.

 

I don't feel I'll be playing it for anything more than fun though. It's a shame because Grey Knights always spoke to me as being an army built of Terminators – even more so than Deathwing. When we heard that GKTs would become troop choices it sounded like a dream had finally been realised. I'd perhaps would have still been happy if S6 had remained a default. S6 PW always made them a more attractive choice over regularly PAGKs and more worth the extra costs. Now when it comes to offensive power there's a much smaller incentive to take them. Cheaper upgrades aren't much of a compensation and psychic tests just throw in additional many factors that weren't a worry beforehand. I'm surprised that people are so happy that GKs will be over-reliant on them now but that's another story entirely... :)

 

EDIT - Anyone else find the loss of Storm-shields on GKTs unreasonable?

[DinoDoc]

EDIT - Anyone else find the loss of Storm-shields on GKTs unreasonable?

A bit, yeah. Especially if the Nemesis Daemon hammer really is only +1 str.

[BrotherWasted]

It is a thunderhammer that grants +1 strength to the bearer, isn't it?

 

 

As it is a Nemesis-class weapon upgrade, this would make it a S10 thunderhammer (bearer strength is 5, doubled since it works like a power fist in CC), which also happens to be a Force Weapon.

[Oiad]

No, new posters who have seen the final codex say it's only a Thunderhammer which can unload force weapon psychic power. So it's only s8 with your average marine.

[Gentlemanloser]

S10 after Hammerhand. Which makes sense, and makes the Hammerhand entry make sense.

 

So what's the Daemonhammer that ICs can take? Like the old one? A Thunderhammer that can hit on Initiative?

 

So we're sure? Nemesis Daemonhammers double S?

[lordsloth]

S10 after Hammerhand. Which makes sense, and makes the Hammerhand entry make sense.

 

So what's the Daemonhammer that ICs can take? Like the old one? A Thunderhammer that can hit on Initiative?

 

So we're sure? Nemesis Daemonhammers double S?

 

If that's true, then surely not for a mere 5pt upgrade as had been in the rumours pre black box?

[Gentlemanloser]

Well TH/SS termy upgrades for the BA are only 5 points.

 

And we don't get the SS. ;)

[lordsloth]

Well TH/SS termy upgrades for the BA are only 5 points.

 

And we don't get the SS. ;)

 

And for space pups th and Ss is .. what? 30 or 35 pt upgrade? Something to that effect anyway. Othe rcodexes not necessarily something to go by ;)

[monkeyking]

Well TH/SS termy upgrades for the BA are only 5 points.

 

And we don't get the SS. ;)

 

And for space pups th and Ss is .. what? 30 or 35 pt upgrade? Something to that effect anyway. Othe rcodexes not necessarily something to go by ;)

 

18 base

15 for TDA

15 for TH

15 for SS....

 

63 points for a TH/SS terminator!? Holy sh*t. I suppose you get some of it back because you can mix and match them.

[Gentlemanloser]

SW was not only earlier than both BA and GK, but written by a different author.

 

Who knows, Ward might value a TH as a 5 point upgrade. ;)